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Old 2nd January 2012, 11:40   #61
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Default re: Toyota Fortuner crashes, Air bags did not deploy *EDIT* Another similar case Pg.7

In my case the Innova rolled over once, and had a side impact as seen in the pics. The airbags did deploy and the crack on the front glass is because of a helpful bystander who tried to break the screen in order to remove the occupants but failed. Everyone in the front was wearing seat belt 2 people at the rear got minor bruises. The airbag did nothing to protect the driver or the co-passenger. The people were saved only by the physical design of the car.

Note the car didnt have bull bar.
There is no impact on the front bumper.

What ever we discuss the airbag deploys when the sensor stationed somewhere in the car is disturbed (Front for front airbags and sides for curtain airbags). However it is an electronic device and the nature of impact is unpredictable which makes it react differently in different cases.

Glad that everyone is safe the car did its job! With or without airbag you need luck to survive crashes.
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Toyota Fortuner crashes, Air bags did not deploy *EDIT* Another similar case Pg.7-p1020444.jpg  

Toyota Fortuner crashes, Air bags did not deploy *EDIT* Another similar case Pg.7-p1020465.jpg  

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Old 2nd January 2012, 11:57   #62
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Default re: Toyota Fortuner crashes, Air bags did not deploy *EDIT* Another similar case Pg.7

Looking at the pictures I would only expect airbags to deploy if they are on the sides. Does the Fortuner have side bags?
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Old 2nd January 2012, 12:04   #63
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Default re: Toyota Fortuner crashes, Air bags did not deploy *EDIT* Another similar case Pg.7

Quote:
Originally Posted by wanderer4x4 View Post
... The vehicle skidded under braking on a long sweeping curve on the highway, glanced a roadside tree on the RHS, then toppled and rolled over thrice before coming to rest on its side. Now, the major issue is that despite extensive damage to the front of the vehicle, the Air bags did not deploy. Thankfully, all the occupants of the car escaped with minor injuries with everyone wearing seatbelts.

... Or is it designed to deploy only during more severe damage. (Then it is outright unsafe) or something did not work in this particular vehicle? (Then Toyota's much touted safety and reliability needs to be questioned.)
Quote:
Originally Posted by .anshuman View Post
... The owner's manual clearly has the conditions mentioned wherein the front Airbags will deploy.

Even after the rollover the cabin has held up really well, with no major deformation. Fortunately all the occupants were unharmed too, now why do you thing the Airbags would have helped here? Look at the bull bar, it clearly shows this was not a head on impact.

I feel Toyota should have offered ESP as standard on Indian Fortuners from day one, just like they do for other countries. Why do they think lives of their customers in India is not as important?
Quote:
Originally Posted by prafulasher View Post
... Apart from the fact that Anshuman mentioned, the first thing that came to mind are the "Bull Guards/Bars". Is it really safe to have those installed?
Quote:
Originally Posted by bblost View Post
IMHO: The crash guard in the front has done a good job of protecting the sensors.
Quote:
Originally Posted by absynthguzzler View Post
The passengers survived the crash. When multiple rolls, side swipes and what not has been involved, I don't see why the safety of the car has to be questioned in such a scenario ...
Quote:
Originally Posted by unni.ak View Post
... My thought is that crash guards should not be used on vehicles with airbags. This is anytime detrimental to the car. Even in case of a head on, instead of the crumble zones taking in the impact, the crash guard would direct it to the chassis, where it is bolted on to. The car and safety (passive and active) features were not designed with crash guard included.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bblost View Post
A crash/ bull guard should never be used for vehicles running on public roads.

They KILL pedestrians.
I think the MVA clearly states any alteration to the vehicle which changes its manufacturer-specifications (such as length/width/height) is illegal. Why do people still go for such cheap mods, to increase their already inflated snob values?

What was the speed of the vehicle when it underwent braking? Was the driver experienced in driving such big vehicles at high speeds?

These are some of the more important questions which come to my mind rather than questionning Toyota's safety measures or why they don't offer a particular feature on their vehicles in India.

Or is it a case of having a powerful, big vehicle equipped with ABS and airbags and so being driven in excessive speeds without any regard to the driver's capability, the legal speed limits or the terrain conditions?
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Old 2nd January 2012, 12:54   #64
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Default re: Toyota Fortuner crashes, Air bags did not deploy *EDIT* Another similar case Pg.7

Fact: The Fortuner has only front airbags. They don't claim to provide any more or any less. Whoever buys one must be fully aware of this. Blaming the non-deployment of airbags and a roll-over incident on cost cutting by Toyota is a bowl of codswallop.

Likely cause for non-deployment:

1. Bull-bar. Toyota warns you not to fix one. I tried getting one for my Innova at Lanson Chennai, and the Service Advisor explicitly said it interfered with the airbag sensors. Fixing an after-market bull-bar can only do worse.

2. Negligible Frontal impact : In most cases, when the frontal impact is minimal, the airbags don't deploy for the simple reason that THEY CAN KILL YOU! Airbags are not a magical panacea for all accidents; they offer very specific benefits during very specific incidents.

3. Seatbelts: As far as I know, airbags don't deploy unless the front passengers are wearing seat belts. Reason: THEY CAN KILL YOU! Imagine being head-butted by a pillow at 120 km/hr +. You'll break your neck. Which is why airbags work only when the person they are protecting is already restrained in his or her seat(read: seatbelted), and not traveling forward to meet the airbag.

Let's not malign a manufacturer and quote product recalls (which I think is the most responsible way a company has of dealing with the slightest risk of accidental death) behind the risk of anonymity here.

As an aside: watch the 1991 Gene Hackman movie "Class Action". You'll thank Toyota for making those recalls.
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Old 2nd January 2012, 13:40   #65
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Default re: Toyota Fortuner crashes, Air bags did not deploy *EDIT* Another similar case Pg.7

Quote:
Originally Posted by sgiitk View Post
Looking at the pictures I would only expect airbags to deploy if they are on the sides. Does the Fortuner have side bags?
No, the Fortuner have only two airbags in the front.
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Old 2nd January 2012, 14:17   #66
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Default re: Toyota Fortuner crashes, Air bags did not deploy *EDIT* Another similar case Pg.7

Quote:
Originally Posted by dkaile View Post
I think that is a unjustified comment in context of this topic. I sense other intentions of the OP in starting such a topic to maybe get this point across. With so many news of many electronics failure in the compared vehicle, the same may happen to it, even when the airbags were supposed to deploy.
Let me make my intentions clear once again. I do not represent M & M, nor I own the XUV nor I am a fanboy of M & M nor do I benefit in any ways by "maligning" Toyota or for that matter any other manufacturer. As already stated, I questioned the deployment of the air bags under these situations and questioned whether air bags should have been more sensitive or not and whether these should have deployed or not.

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Originally Posted by dkaile View Post
As correctly pointed out by many mods, frontal airbag deployment depends upon the destruction of the frontal crumple zones which seem to be intact in this case. As such this was one of my worries for not adding any bull bars to my Fortuner in case of such an event. Further it was the solid integrity of the build quality which saved all the occupants even after multiple roll ups although all around seat-belts contributed too.
I do agree that the bull bars may have caused the sensors to miss the impact to some extent, but I also dont agree that only destruction of the front will have the air bags deployed. And does the front fender and the body shell/frame under it not constitute part of the front crumple zone? In this case, the fender and the body shell has been damaged with the body shell underneath the fender caving into the engine bay. So, to a layman like me it constitutes a damage to the front crumple zone. As can be seen from the above Innova accident posted by tazmaan, the front has not the slightest damage and the vehicle has damage only to the passenger side and invariably the passenger side air bag has deployed as it should. It seems that the sensors here worked perfectly and I hoped this should have been the case. Now, many would again say that the Innova did not have the bull bar, and so the bumper sensors triggered the air bags. But, then it thorws the argument out of the window that only severe destruction of the front triggers the air bags and air bag sensors have a threshold that it does not deploy in minor dinks as here the front is completely intact. In the Fortuners case, the front portion did take the hit and was much more damaged. So, its unfathomable that none of the sensors got the slightest input despite the bull bar.

But, having said that, it seems that understanding the deployment of the air bags still is controversial with different situations. So, would request the more techincal and knowledgeable among us to throw more light on the general working of the air bags for enhancing our knowledge.

PS: Pls do not assign any ulterior motives or malafide intent behind this thread. The Fortuner still is one of my most favourite vehicles on Indian roads. So chill !!!

Last edited by wanderer4x4 : 2nd January 2012 at 14:25.
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Old 2nd January 2012, 14:48   #67
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Default re: Toyota Fortuner crashes, Air bags did not deploy *EDIT* Another similar case Pg.7

Quote:
Originally Posted by wanderer4x4 View Post
. As can be seen from the above Innova accident posted by tazmaan, the front has not the slightest damage and the vehicle has damage only to the passenger side and invariably the passenger side air bag has deployed as it should. It seems that the sensors here worked perfectly and I hoped this should have been the case. Now, many would again say that the Innova did not have the bull bar, and so the bumper sensors triggered the air bags. But, then it thorws the argument out of the window that only severe destruction of the front triggers the air bags and air bag sensors have a threshold that it does not deploy in minor dinks as here the front is completely intact. In the Fortuners case, the front portion did take the hit and was much more damaged. So, its unfathomable that none of the sensors got the slightest input despite the bull bar.

Yes like you said I did not expect the airbags to deploy in my case. FYI both the airbags were deployed and the passenger and the driver had no benefit from it. As a matter of fact the Driver airbag blinded the driver for some time resulting in panic. I support high threshold for airbags otherwise airbags will be deployed even on small accidents where just the bumper might get damaged with no chance of passengers getting hurt. Its costs a bomb to get the airbags replaced and people will stop buying cars with airbags.

But, having said that, it seems that understanding the deployment of the air bags still is controversial with different situations. So, would request the more techincal and knowledgeable among us to throw more light on the general working of the air bags for enhancing our knowledge.
On how the sensors work can be described by the example below,

There has been cases where people have survived falls from a 6th floor of a house and there has been cases where people have died by just falling from 1st floor. It simply depends!!!

Remember airbags are SRS and they have to find a balance on when it has to be deployed. There are million different conditions it might have to encounter.
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Old 2nd January 2012, 15:36   #68
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Default re: Toyota Fortuner crashes, Air bags did not deploy *EDIT* Another similar case Pg.7

Quote:
Originally Posted by tsk1979 View Post
Do take a look at the pics again. The vehicle has a crash guard. So it protected the sensors. If the airbags "had" deployed, I would have been surprised!
Sorry for the 1st post, I wasn't able to write my doubts clearly.
Please refer below this other post of mine, #50 -

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/street...ml#post2627926

Referring Tazmaan`s post #61 - raises more questions regarding the airbag deployment process.

------

Toyota acknowledges the issue unlike some other manufacturers, inform customer, bring back the vehicle to the dealer, rectify/resolve the issues free of cost and deliver it back to the customer and I really appreciate this fact.

On the other hand, if a manufacturer keep on doing the same mistake again and again (different car/model, different dates, different parts...) in almost every country they operate then something is just not right about the exising QA process. If they can look into their existing process for improvement, it`ll help boost customer confidence.

I`ll thank my car manufacturer everytime they acknowledge their mistake and resolve the issues, however the more the no. of mistake the more I loose my confidence on my car manufacturer.

No offence meant to anyone and nothing against Toyota.
I would love to drive Fortuner one day

Last edited by AvonA7 : 2nd January 2012 at 15:51. Reason: edit ...
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Old 2nd January 2012, 16:04   #69
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Default re: Toyota Fortuner crashes, Air bags did not deploy *EDIT* Another similar case Pg.7

Quote:
Originally Posted by tazmaan View Post
In my case the Innova rolled over once, and had a side impact as seen in the pics. The airbags did deploy and the crack on the front glass is because of a helpful bystander who tried to break the screen in order to remove the occupants but failed. Everyone in the front was wearing seat belt 2 people at the rear got minor bruises. The airbag did nothing to protect the driver or the co-passenger. The people were saved only by the physical design of the car.

Note the car didnt have bull bar.
There is no impact on the front bumper.

What ever we discuss the airbag deploys when the sensor stationed somewhere in the car is disturbed (Front for front airbags and sides for curtain airbags). However it is an electronic device and the nature of impact is unpredictable which makes it react differently in different cases.

Glad that everyone is safe the car did its job! With or without airbag you need luck to survive crashes.
Can you describe how the Innova rolled over? Did you hit a curb? or some object on the road or did you just go too fast in the corner and it rolled over? That's where the clue is.
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Old 2nd January 2012, 16:11   #70
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Default re: Toyota Fortuner crashes, Air bags did not deploy *EDIT* Another similar case Pg.7

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Originally Posted by Vid6639 View Post
Can you describe how the Innova rolled over? Did you hit a curb? or some object on the road or did you just go too fast in the corner and it rolled over? That's where the clue is.
You can go through my thread,

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/street...eturned-5.html (4 cars went on a road trip only 3 returned!)
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Old 2nd January 2012, 16:29   #71
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Default re: Toyota Fortuner crashes, Air bags did not deploy *EDIT* Another similar case Pg.7

Quote:
Originally Posted by tazmaan View Post
Thanks, although I did not see any discussion on airbags there.

My guess is the airbags deployed at either of 2 points:

1. when the Innova jumped the kerb. Airbags are known to deploy if you drive over a curb too fast.
2. At the time of impact with the WagonR. The side damage is not a T-bone but a diagonal hit which if at enough speed can trigger the airbag. Remember, airbags deploy if the speed of impact is above 40km/hr. If you roll a vehicle at 30kmph by clipping a kerb, airbag will never deploy.

Speed, angle of impact, force of impact are few parameters that can cause the airbag to deploy.
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Old 2nd January 2012, 16:52   #72
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Default re: Toyota Fortuner crashes, Air bags did not deploy *EDIT* Another similar case Pg.7

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vid6639 View Post
Speed, angle of impact, force of impact are few parameters that can cause the airbag to deploy.
You are forgetting the biggest parameter of them all 'rate of deceleration'. If the rate of deceleration is beyond a certain limit the airbags will deploy even if there is no full frontal impact.

PS: The Swift manual clearly states that the airbags will not deploy on rollover. So I am sure other manufacturers will also list the scenarios in which the airbags will deploy/not deploy. And also airbags inflate at close 200kmph and not 120kmph as pointed out by someone.

Last edited by vikram_d : 2nd January 2012 at 16:54.
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Old 2nd January 2012, 16:54   #73
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Default re: Toyota Fortuner crashes, Air bags did not deploy *EDIT* Another similar case Pg.7

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vid6639 View Post
Thanks, although I did not see any discussion on airbags there.

My guess is the airbags deployed at either of 2 points:

1. when the Innova jumped the kerb. Airbags are known to deploy if you drive over a curb too fast.
2. At the time of impact with the WagonR. The side damage is not a T-bone but a diagonal hit which if at enough speed can trigger the airbag. Remember, airbags deploy if the speed of impact is above 40km/hr. If you roll a vehicle at 30kmph by clipping a kerb, airbag will never deploy.

Speed, angle of impact, force of impact are few parameters that can cause the airbag to deploy.
I feel the second point is the more probable reason for the air bag deployment. It seems that the sensors rightly identified the damged area and deployed the air bag.

And I also agree to what you have said in bold above. And my confusion is in this only. Lets forget about the bull bar for a moment and try to analyse. The Fortuner hit something diagonally around the headlamp, cracking its wheel, damaging the fender and the body shell underneath which is part of the front crumple zone, buckling its bonnet and you can see the impression of the object in the 2nd pic. Now, in this whole diagonal impact the bumper is missed. So, should air bags deploy or not? As you said, I also feel that it should, because it is a high speed diagonal direct hit and the whole argument that the bull bar prevented the impact from reaching the sensor is flawed because in any case the impact never touched the bull bar or the bumper first. So, the question is whether the sensors are sesitive to other impacts in the front crumple zone (AFAIK yes) or they are only sensitive behind the bumper? And thein lies my confusion and question.

Last edited by wanderer4x4 : 2nd January 2012 at 17:05. Reason: Added something
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Old 2nd January 2012, 17:17   #74
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Default re: Toyota Fortuner crashes, Air bags did not deploy *EDIT* Another similar case Pg.7

Quote:
Originally Posted by vikram_d View Post
You are forgetting the biggest parameter of them all 'rate of deceleration'. If the rate of deceleration is beyond a certain limit the airbags will deploy even if there is no full frontal impact.
Quote:
Originally Posted by wanderer4x4 View Post
I feel the second point is the more probable reason for the air bag deployment. It seems that the sensors rightly identified the damged area and deployed the air bag.

And thein lies my confusion and question.
Please note both the airbags have deployed in the Innova.

Exactly my confusion and I don't think repeated accidents will have same results, the end result will always be random.

One thing common in both the accidents is the way the cabin held up after roll over.

OT: In both the cases ESP might have prevented the accidents

Last edited by tazmaan : 2nd January 2012 at 17:23. Reason: more information
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Old 2nd January 2012, 18:32   #75
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Default re: Toyota Fortuner crashes, Air bags did not deploy *EDIT* Another similar case Pg.7

I'm not a big SUV person but have driven my friend's Fortuner for about 15 km on a busy highway. It did not give me the grounded feeling that I am used to in a sedan or hatchback and I wouldn't dream of zipping in it the way I do in my Vento, for example.

That the Fortuner is abysmally underkitted for its price is beyond debate and Toyota should well have considered putting in curtain airbags and ESP at least as an option, but no matter WHAT safety features are installed in my car, I must drive it in a way that minimises risk to myself and the other occupants and users of the road- that is a no brainer. I notice that nowhere has the speed of the vehicle that crashed been mentioned. Friends who drive the Fortuner have told me that they rarely venture beyond 90-100 kmph, which would be my own reckoning of a safe speed for this vehicle.
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