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Old 13th June 2012, 22:15   #106
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Default Re: Toyota Fortuner crashes, Air bags did not deploy *EDIT* Another similar case Pg.7

As far as I recollect, Airbags are Supplemental Restraint System(SRS). Seat belts continue to be primary restraint system.
Dynamics of an accident continue to pose challenges for electronics or rather expose limitations.
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Old 14th June 2012, 09:48   #107
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Default Re: Fortuner Airbags do not DEPLOY!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by driven646 View Post
My question is - why did the Airbag's not deploy despite such a heavy frontal impact?
I think you yourself have answered the above question.

Quote:
Originally Posted by driven646 View Post
They themselves were travelling at about 40-50 Km per hour and in order to avoid a head on collision, my uncle swerved left into the hillside while slamming the brakes.
So the speed at impact would be much lower than 40Kmph.
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Old 14th June 2012, 10:35   #108
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Default Re: Fortuner Airbags do not DEPLOY!!

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Originally Posted by ecenandu View Post
I think you yourself have answered the above question.



So the speed at impact would be much lower than 40Kmph.
The Car was doing 40-50 kmph on the left side of the road and had to turn hard left while braking to avoid a head on...the distance to the hillside was minimal - even hard braking would not have scrubbed much speed off such a short distance.....I estimate the impact speed to be 35-40 kmh into the stony hillside.
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Old 14th June 2012, 10:41   #109
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Default Re: Toyota Fortuner crashes, Air bags did not deploy *EDIT* Another similar case Pg.7

Thanks, driven, for sharing this. It seems that in this case airbags should have deployed if the impact was heavy enough to tear/dislocate front wheel as well as crashing the bumper. And mind you, unlike my cousin's Fortuner earlier, this does not have bull bars installed to prevent the sensors getting activated. To me there is more to it than meets the eye and it might be case of Toyota cutting corners and cashing in on the blind belief that we have in the brand.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vikram_d View Post
From the photos it looks like the crash has not impacted the crash beam behind the bumper where the airbag sensors are generally located...... Going by the looks of it, I would estimate the crash speed to be not more than 15 - 20 kmph.
If the impact had "torn" the front wheel as mentioned by driven in the post, the impact must have been at a higher speed than 15-20 kmph. And the bumper crashing should have activated the sensors to act in that case. In my cousin's car, which was travelling at least at a speed of 80-100, the front cross beam was damaged including the wheel struts, cross members, mounting etc not to speak of the bumpers despite having the bull bars. So, the notion of the bull bars preventing the impact from reaching the sensors is kind of unpalatable. And so, I still stand by my original question- where are the sensors hidden despite these all round damage?

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Originally Posted by phamilyman View Post
I agree with you. If it is such a limited technology, then its a total waste for me IMO.
Not to mention the extra 0.5-1 lakh it imposes in terms of dashboard repair costs when replaced.
honestly, Toyota should put more sensors if that is what it needs. But to give false sense of safety as the marketing material implies, is not a good thing.
Agree 100%. It seems that the sensors in Fortuner have a mind of their own or are pretty well hidden to not get activated.

PS: BTW, my cousin's car has been declared a total loss by the insurance company citing all round damage to the body shell, front structurals including chasis and complete front suspension mechanicals. So, one can understand the level of damage there was on the cars front and if such damage do not activate the sensors only because bull bars prevented the impact from reaching them, then they will not get activated despite not having bull bars as well, as in this fresh case mentioned above.
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Old 14th June 2012, 10:52   #110
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Default Re: Toyota Fortuner crashes, Air bags did not deploy *EDIT* Another similar case Pg.7

Have a look at this Yeti accident picture on our forum itself http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/test-d...ml#post2798559 (Skoda Yeti@ India (An ownership review)) and compare this with the T-Fort accident, the Yeti impact was a side impact still both the front Airbag got deployed! I am not sure why we debate that the condition was not suitable and all, its a safety feature and it should work optimistically in most of the cases.

-Pramod
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Old 14th June 2012, 12:39   #111
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There may be any number of technical explanations for the non deployment of the airbags. While many of these explanations may be highly scientific, perfectly feasible and plausible and whatnot, in the mind of the sufferer, none of this reasoning would be acceptable.
If it had happened to me, I would also be livid.
I am glad there was no serious injury but there certainly will be a huge psychological effect. In fact he would be completely justified in being turned off Toyota for some considerable time on account of confidence loss. Nothing wrong with that I think!
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Old 14th June 2012, 13:29   #112
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Default Re: Toyota Fortuner crashes, Air bags did not deploy *EDIT* Another similar case Pg.7

Quote:
Originally Posted by pramods View Post
Have a look at this Yeti accident picture on our forum itself http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/test-d...ml#post2798559 (Skoda Yeti@ India (An ownership review)) and compare this with the T-Fort accident, the Yeti impact was a side impact still both the front Airbag got deployed! I am not sure why we debate that the condition was not suitable and all, its a safety feature and it should work optimistically in most of the cases.

-Pramod
The Yeti has six airbags in all. So the chances are that all airbags are linked and when the side impact happened it deployed the front airbags also.

Quote:
Six airbags
All that rough and tumble calls for some extra protection. The SKODA Yeti comes with 6 airbags that, in addition to the front airbags, include curtain airbags at both the front and the rear, and side airbags at the front. This gives complete protection to all the occupants of the car.
Source: Skoda Yeti Car Safety - Skoda Yeti India

Something the distressed people seem to be forgetting is that airbags can do more harm than good when deployed in the wrong scenarios. This is also the reason why airbags have a very specific set of scenarios in which they will deploy.

Quote:
Speed Is Relative
  • Regardless of the make of the car, or position of the device, airbags typically extend between 10 to 25 milliseconds after collision. The impact threshold for the process is based on a transient impact of 5 to 7g, at a crash speed of between 5 to 15 mph. The variance is based on several factors, including angle of impact, its characteristics (meaning a direct, or deflected secondary hit), transient velocity, or other pressure metrics, as established by the on-board airbag system instrumentation. While these devices do reduce crash fatalities, there are some potential downside impacts in the case of slower speed incidents. These can include abrasions of the face and body, bruising, or in certain circumstances broken bones.
Source: http://www.ehow.com/about_5549727_sp...ag-deploy.html

Last edited by vikram_d : 14th June 2012 at 13:35.
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Old 14th June 2012, 13:42   #113
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Quote:
Originally Posted by driven646

Yesterday (June 12, 2012) My Father and Uncle along with their driver were en route to Manali from Shimla - when about an hour out of Shimla - coming around a bend they came across a Car coming downhill at high speed on the wrong side of the lane.

This Fortuner was bought in April 2010 and has covered nearly 30,000 Km's.

My question is - why did the Airbag's not deploy despite such a heavy frontal impact?

Please let me know what you members think.
@driven646 First thankfully everyone is safe now.
Secondly one should blame the idiots who were going downhill on the wrong side of the road. It was because of these people that such an accident happened. First rule of the hills. Always give way to uphill traffic.

Whether it is technically feasible or not, one should not forget that Airbags are a basic safety feature and should deploy. Accidents as the name suggest are accidental. Which means one cannot be like "oh accident is going to happen, (so since my airbags will deploy only on frontal impact,) let me have a full frontal collision." Accidents cannot be controlled by us. The manufacturers charging us premium for basic safety features is like taking the Indian customers for a ride.

Ive seen so many crash testing videos posted on tbhp where most of the vehicles undergo side impact and airbag deployment is also tested. So does it mean for the Indian consumer, manufacturer is just providing the airbag and the logo and no sensors? If sensors are being employed to detect a collision, and this is the result, god knows what is going to happen if one is travelling at higher speeds.
I think manufacturers should make it mandatory for the driver and passenger airbags to deploy in case of an impact. I mean what sensors are they using? Tv remote ka sensor? In the case of an accident, the G forces are tremendous. Cant the sensors even detect that much? Since you say your fathers spectacle was broken into pieces, the g force would have been tremendous atleast 2 to 4 gs. If the sensors cannot detect that and deploy airbags, then i guess the car doesnt have sensors at all or it is using 1rs 2rs sensors from palika bazar or national market.
Thank god atleast the seat belts worked.

And to all the other members who feel that everything was okay since airbags didnt deploy and no frontal impact and the OP is wrong to claim this as a problem think once even if some part of your car stops working even a small part, we start complaining on tbhp this and that manufacturer is bad yada yada. Here the driver and the passenger both were the member's family and its a question of life and death here and not some error with the ICE or fuel pump or electrical niggles etc. Think about it what if it was your family member?

Thus lets not blame the member for posting his grievances but lets sympathise with his concern for the safety of his family. I know im worried.

I dont wish to draw the ire of any member here. I request the above with all due respect. Please forgive my colloquial tone in the post.

Regards.
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Old 14th June 2012, 13:55   #114
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Default Re: Toyota Fortuner crashes, Air bags did not deploy *EDIT* Another similar case Pg.7

@Parthasarathig - Dude, notbody is blaming driven646 for posting his grievances. All we are trying to explain to him is that airbags will only deploy when certain criteria is met. That is all. Moreover we have all sympathised with him and told him to thank his stars that his uncle and dad got away from the accident with almost no harm.

His dad's spectacles breaking does not indicate what 'G' forces they were enduring. Trust me I know, I have been wearing spectacles since I was 12 years old and I know how easily they can break. Even a drop from a small height like 3" will casue spectacle glasses to break.

As for the point of you believing that airbags should deploy on every accident, then you need to read my post above you once more and a little bit more carefully this time.

Last but not the least, there is nothing in your post to draw anybody's ire.

Airbags not only save lives but they are very capable of injuring you further.

Food for thought: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/arti...v019p00490.pdf

Last edited by vikram_d : 14th June 2012 at 13:58.
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Old 14th June 2012, 14:48   #115
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vikram_d
@Parthasarathig - Dude, notbody is blaming driven646 for posting his grievances. All we are trying to explain to him is that airbags will only deploy when certain criteria is met. That is all. Moreover we have all sympathised with him and told him to thank his stars that his uncle and dad got away from the accident with almost no harm.

Airbags not only save lives but they are very capable of injuring you further.
Bit off topic.
Sir spectacles will break when they hit the floor or any harder material due to impact forces which causes the material to break unless either of the colliding materials have a cushioning effect. Breaking of a spectacle can be compared to the human head injury. When spectacle falls on the floor or hits any hard surface then it breaks, similarly when the biker falls and is not wearing a helmet and hits his head on the pavement his head cracks.
However if you throw the spectacle on your bed, there is less chance of it breaking if at all. Similarly if the biker wears a helmet theres less chance of his head cracking up, similar to us hitting our heads with pillows as the cushion absorbs the shock.
And g forces come into play whenever there is sudden deceleration or acceleration at 90 to the earths gravitation force. Here the spectacle flew forward and hit the dashboard can be explained with physics easily.
When the car was moving the relative motion of the passengers and the spectacle wrt the car was 0. When there was impact, the passengers and the spectacle were still in motion as they are not connected directly to the car. As a result of which the passeneger in the absence of seatbelt would hit his or her face on the dashboard. Seatbelt prevented that. But the spectacle didnt have seatbelt so it kept being in motion and its relative velocity wrt the car kept increasing. Since the car was at 0kmph now but the spectacle was still at 40-50kmph as it did not have any direct deceleration force on it, continued to travel forward. When it hits the dash, its velocity is reduced to zero in a second thereby it would experience 11metres per second square of deceleration or 1.13g(11.1/9.8) as g force.
Since both the colliding bodies ie specs and dash are inelastic in nature thereby all the force of the impact breaks the glasses somewhat similar to a kid running towards a wall and ending up with broken bones instead of the wall being broken. (ive exhausted all the physics that i learnt in 12th)

Mystery of the broken spectacles explained along with the fact that it did experience g force. Thanks to my little knowledge of physics, and having broken countless spectacles over a period of 18 years.

Back onto topic.
Yes i agree with you sir. Airbags do cause danger too. But a broken nose or a concussion due to airbag deployment maybe less severe than direct impact of the passenger with the dash.
Btw do airbags deploy if not wearing seatbelts? My honda warns if my seatbelts are not attached. So does it mean in case of a full frontal impact, and without wearing seatbelts, the airbags will refuse to deploy? im a noob at this stuff. Please bear.

Thanks.

Last edited by Parthasarathig : 14th June 2012 at 14:55.
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Old 14th June 2012, 14:58   #116
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Default Re: Toyota Fortuner crashes, Air bags did not deploy *EDIT* Another similar case Pg.7

I thank all the member's who have posted their views on the non-deployment of our Fortuner's Airbags.

I have now shown the pictures of the crash and discussed the issue with the head of a major automobile component manufacturer who has factories in Himachal.

He is an expert in the field - nearly all Auto companies in India are his customers and his turnover runs into the 1000's of Crores.

He was of the firm opinion that the Airbag's should definitely have deployed and it is a 'serious critical defect' that they did not.

As I have mentioned earlier - this is our Third Toyota vehicle - we have previously owned a Toyota Qualis and currently own a top end Innova 2005 model besides the Fortuner bought in 2010.

I will now send a mail to Toyota India along with the pictures and request an explanation.

I will keep you all posted on their response.
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Old 14th June 2012, 15:17   #117
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Default Re: Toyota Fortuner crashes, Air bags did not deploy *EDIT* Another similar case Pg.7

Its a combination of vehicle design & active \ passive safety features that ultimately makes a particular model safer than others. First up - the occupants walked away without serious injury. For the record - I am not a Toyota fan, but I fail to see why airbags not deploying is the central discussion here. On the contrary there is nothing the airbags could have done as the only injury sustained, as explained by driven646, was related to seat belts restraining the occupants ( I sustained a similar injury - sprain would be a better description - which left an imprint of the seat belt across my torso for a few days ). Airbags on the fortuner could not have prevented this type of injury. As rightly pointed out in an earlier post - the airbag is the supplementary restraint system with the seat belt being the primary. (Which is why airbags are designed not to deploy without seat belts as they can injure unrestrained passengers).

Incident summary from my perspective.
1. The car protected the occupants & enabled them to walk away from this crash.

2. Front airbag, in cars that do not additional airbags, will not deploy unless sensors are triggered in the event of a frontal crash (with passengers buckled in). This is related to the nature of the crash and not necessarily to speed during impact.

3. There will be some aches and pains on account of seat belts doing their job in a crash. This is negligible compared to injuries that one would sustain if seat belts were not used.

@ Driven464 - Any accident that one can walk away from, is a good one. Even if the vehicle involved is wrecked beyond redemption, in the larger scheme of things this is hardly a loss.
So thank your stars \ God(s) \ guardian angel or whatever \ whoever it is that you place your faith in. Maybe even the bright sparks at Toyota that designed your ride

Last edited by Zed : 14th June 2012 at 15:19.
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Old 14th June 2012, 15:26   #118
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Default Re: Toyota Fortuner crashes, Air bags did not deploy *EDIT* Another similar case Pg.7

Quote:
Originally Posted by vikram_d View Post
The Yeti has six airbags in all. So the chances are that all airbags are linked and when the side impact happened it deployed the front airbags also.
..................
Yeti just deployed the front 2 airbags not the side airbags, nonetheless airbag do help and can be cause of injury too, I mean if I visually look at impact on the Yeti and T-Fort from picture, it looks to me that T-Fort impact was more frontal and higher, in both the cases the tyre arm were bent to the extent that vehicle has to be taken on flat bed truck. I just hope the airbag works when it is required!

-Pramod

Last edited by pramods : 14th June 2012 at 15:29.
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Old 14th June 2012, 15:36   #119
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Default Re: Toyota Fortuner crashes, Air bags did not deploy *EDIT* Another similar case Pg.7

Sure the impact is there, but is it that big that we call it a Heavy Impact ? Even the front left headlight assembly is in working condition. I would call this (Nissan Micra Head On Crash with Truck.) as heavy impact, a crash I practically witnessed. Here, the left headlight assembly is not even dislocated by impact of the crash.

There is detailed information regarding when the airbags would deploy and when they would not in the manual. IMO, the accident is not big enough to trigger the airbags. The car has to take a certain amount of hit ( i.e. energy ) at some angle for airbags to deploy.

I am not sure, but if this impact would have been at the center of the front, the airbags might have deployed.
At the end of the day, there is not much visible damage IMO that airbags would have deployed.

PS : I am wearing specs for around 11-12 years now. They are damn easy to break. Once I was cleaning my table and accidentally hit my specs, specs flew around and hit wall around two feet way, and specs were broken. Lets not focus on that part, but on the crash.

Last edited by aaggoswami : 14th June 2012 at 15:39.
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Old 15th June 2012, 12:13   #120
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Default Re: Toyota Fortuner crashes, Air bags did not deploy *EDIT* Another similar case Pg.7

Quote:
Originally Posted by driven646 View Post
The impact was sufficient to smash the left side of the front bumper and cause a sizable dent to the right.
With due respect, do you seriously want the Airbags to deploy because there is a dent in the bumper?

Being a Mumbaikar and driving on crowded streets with other maniac drivers, such dents are common in our cars. And I would definitely not want Airbags to inflate in such small shunts. Why? Because in such cases, a seat belt is more than enough to keep you safe. Airbags are not really needed.

The crash of the Micra shown above is a good example of what we mean by a serious head on collision. That is when, Airbags are really needed.

Please understand that Airbags can also do more harm than good, because at the speed at which they inflate, it can even break your neck. So it is not a good thing to wish that Airbags inflate in such minor shunts. I would be happier with a broken spectacle than a broken neck. that is precisely the reason Airbags dont inflate until and unless it is absolutely necessary. All this will be written in your car's manual too.

Anyways, to each his own. If you feel you have been cheated, you have the rights to raise your opinion. I hope you get a satisfactory response from Toyota. Good luck.
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