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Old 15th June 2012, 14:38   #121
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Default Re: Toyota Fortuner crashes, Air bags did not deploy *EDIT* Another similar case Pg.7

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Originally Posted by raj_5004 View Post
With due respect, do you seriously want the Airbags to deploy because there is a dent in the bumper?

Being a Mumbaikar and driving on crowded streets with other maniac drivers, such dents are common in our cars. And I would definitely not want Airbags to inflate in such small shunts. Why? Because in such cases, a seat belt is more than enough to keep you safe. Airbags are not really needed.

The crash of the Micra shown above is a good example of what we mean by a serious head on collision. That is when, Airbags are really needed.

Please understand that Airbags can also do more harm than good, because at the speed at which they inflate, it can even break your neck. So it is not a good thing to wish that Airbags inflate in such minor shunts. I would be happier with a broken spectacle than a broken neck. that is precisely the reason Airbags dont inflate until and unless it is absolutely necessary. All this will be written in your car's manual too.

Anyways, to each his own. If you feel you have been cheated, you have the rights to raise your opinion. I hope you get a satisfactory response from Toyota. Good luck.
This was a full fledged crash - if you were to see the pictures I have posted - you will realize it's different from a regular fender bender one might experience in heavy traffic in the metro's. This was a Fortuner smashing into a rocky hillside at about 35-40 Kmph.

As i have mentioned earlier - I have shown the pictures of the accident to a person who is one of the owner's of a major auto component manufacturing company.

Now this person is an expert who also manufactures Airbag assemblies for companies such as Ford India besides being a major supplier of some component or the other to all the Auto companies present in India.

In his 'Expert' Opinion - The Airbags should have definitely deployed and this is a 'critical component failure'.

Now of course the seatbelts saved both front passengers from serious injury and are the primary protector's - but what if one wasn't belted - would it not be fair to expect the 'secondary protection source' to activate?

I have written a comprehensive mail to Toyota and await their reply.
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Old 15th June 2012, 15:19   #122
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Default Re: Toyota Fortuner crashes, Air bags did not deploy *EDIT* Another similar case Pg.7

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Originally Posted by driven646 View Post

Now this person is an expert who also manufactures Airbag assemblies for companies such as Ford India besides being a major supplier of some component or the other to all the Auto companies present in India. In his 'Expert' Opinion - The Airbags should have definitely deployed and this is a 'critical component failure'.

Now of course the seatbelts saved both front passengers from serious injury and are the primary protector's - but what if one wasn't belted - would it not be fair to expect the 'secondary protection source' to activate?
I believe that you are posting your incident in this forum in order to get different perspectives on the incident. It is with this belief that that I would like to re-state what some of the previous posts (mine Included) highlight.

Airbags deploying when occupants are not belted can cause more damage than the crash itself. Perhaps you are missing the point that many of us are tying to make - that airbags can ONLY work in tandem with seatbelts. If you can visualize - during impact, an occupant (not belted) is flung forward (due to inertia) and meets the deploying airbag which is moving (very rapidly) towards the occupant. This will not protect but potentially injure.

Without the seatbelt holding occupants in place during a crash the airbag cannot prevent injuries and is likely to inflict further damage. I find it hard to comprehend that the industry expert failed to bring this to your attention.

I understand that the occupants in the incident under discussion were belted and hence you expect the airbag to deploy but the question you seem to be skirting is - would the occupants have suffered less injuries if the airbags HAD deployed? You have provided a part of the answer in your earlier post by stating that injuries sustained were ONLY related to the seat belts holding the occupants in place during the crash.

I acknowledge that you would have been re-assured if the Airbags had deployed. But the fact of the matter is - and this is based on your description of the crash, injuries & the pics - Airbags would not have helped in this particular crash.

Im not an expert on airbags and all of the above is based on my understanding of SRS. Experts - please do correct me if my understanding is incorrect.
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Old 15th June 2012, 16:28   #123
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Default Re: Toyota Fortuner crashes, Air bags did not deploy *EDIT* Another similar case Pg.7

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Originally Posted by driven646 View Post
But what if one wasn't belted - would it not be fair to expect the 'secondary protection source' to activate?
Airbags are not secondary systems, they are supplementary systems.

Meaning of the term supplementary

sup·ple·ment (n) - Something added to complete a thing, make up for a deficiency, or extend or strengthen the whole

If one is not belted, then airbag deployment has the to potential to kill the person because the airbag inflation speed is close to 300 kmph. Imagine the impact at that kind of speeds even if the contact is limited for half a second. Imagine getting slapped on your face by something travelling at 300 kmph. You will break your neck. Imgine getting punched in the stomach by a boxer whose glove is travelling at 300 kmph.

Airbags are not supposed to protect you when you are not wearing your seatbelts. They are supposed to protect you when you are. There are a lot of cars in which airbags do not deploy if you are not wearing seatbelts.

There is a reason for them being called "Supplementary Restraint System". They are called this because airbags alone cannot save lives as a lot of people have the misconception of thinking.

I hope you have got the point of what everybody has been trying to explain to you. Airbag deployment when not necessary can hurt even more than what happened to your dad and uncle. I thank your stars that they are both ok. Imagine if the airbag had deployed and hurt them further. Then you would have been here berating the exact opposite.

PS: I am not an airbag expert as your unknown source seems to be. But I know what damage airbag inflation can do. I have first hand knowledge about how airbag deployment smashed a friends jaw to pieces even though he was buckled in. Anyway I have said my bit on this topic and I'm outta here. You can update us by what response you get from Toyota.

Last but not the least, I say again. From the photos, the crash does not seem like a 40 - 50 kmph crash. It looks much slower.

And I'm out.

Last edited by vikram_d : 15th June 2012 at 16:44. Reason: Spell check
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Old 15th June 2012, 16:29   #124
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Default Re: Toyota Fortuner crashes, Air bags did not deploy *EDIT* Another similar case Pg.7

Quote:
Originally Posted by driven646 View Post
This was a full fledged crash - if you were to see the pictures I have posted - you will realize it's different from a regular fender bender one might experience in heavy traffic in the metro's. This was a Fortuner smashing into a rocky hillside at about 35-40 Kmph.
With no disrespect to the car owner or any Toyota fans, the Fortuner's body is not as tough as it looks. Infact from my experience, I saw that the Fortuner is as flimsy as the Innova.

Quote:
As i have mentioned earlier - I have shown the pictures of the accident to a person who is one of the owner's of a major auto component manufacturing company.

Now this person is an expert who also manufactures Airbag assemblies for companies such as Ford India besides being a major supplier of some component or the other to all the Auto companies present in India.

In his 'Expert' Opinion - The Airbags should have definitely deployed and this is a 'critical component failure'.
That is why I said, to each his own.

I am an Automobile engineer and have dealt with this subject in detail. I have been lucky to have visited ARAI to see their crash test facilities and also learn from the experts about the crash worthiness of the vehicles.

Quote:
Now of course the seatbelts saved both front passengers from serious injury and are the primary protector's - but what if one wasn't belted - would it not be fair to expect the 'secondary protection source' to activate?
Now you are mistaken here.

Airbags will never deploy if the occupant has not worn seatbelts. Many cars have weight sensors in the seats for the same reason. Even the Fortuner has it.

Why do you think every car with Airbags have an option to switch it OFF? So that if a child is sitting in the front seat, it can be switched OFF as it will do more harm to the child in the event of a collision.

Airbags are meant to assist the seat belts but Airbags cannot function on their own. Consider this -

A person is travelling at 80 kmph in his car and has not worn seat belts. Now he has a head on collision with another car. What happens? He is thrown forward towards the windshield. At the same time, the airbag deploys towards him at high speed. His neck snaps and he is dead...

That is the reason Airbags are never said to be a replacement to seat belts. Please do not think like that. Without seat belts, an airbag is even more deadly. With seat belts though, while the belts restrain the forward movement of the occupant, the airbags help to cushion the person from the sudden deceleration. You may read more about it in Wikipedia.

Finally, why do you want the Airbags to deploy unnecessarily in the first place? You stated that the occupants came out safe. That means, the car did it's job. And ultimately that is the point. Why risk injuring the occupants by deploying the airbags in such small shunts. Please do not think that Airbags would cause no harm. In some cases, Airbags have even burnt the occupants face lightly. That is the precise reason it is used only under extreme circumstances.

My humble personal opinion in this case still remains that - the airbags were not necessary in such a small shunt. For you, the accident at 50 kmph in a Fortuner seems big, but believe me, the pictures itself speak that it was a serious but not a major crash.

Quote:
I have written a comprehensive mail to Toyota and await their reply.
Good luck.

Last edited by raj_5004 : 15th June 2012 at 16:34.
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Old 15th June 2012, 16:32   #125
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Default Re: Toyota Fortuner crashes, Air bags did not deploy *EDIT* Another similar case Pg.7

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Originally Posted by driven646 View Post
T

Now of course the seatbelts saved both front passengers from serious injury and are the primary protector's - but what if one wasn't belted - would it not be fair to expect the 'secondary protection source' to activate? .
In some cars, airbags are deactivated if you are not belted. In case a person is not belted, airbags can actually cause injury, esp when there are low speed crashes.
I think the threshold for fortuner airbag deployment must be high, because many time 4x4 vehicles suffer impact during offroading.
That said, if its a highspeed crash, where you actually hit the steering and injure yourself, airbag not deploying is a problem, but if the primary restraint system is doing the job fine, SRS does not need to kick in.

Last edited by tsk1979 : 16th June 2012 at 10:53.
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Old 15th June 2012, 18:07   #126
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Default Re: Toyota Fortuner crashes, Air bags did not deploy *EDIT* Another similar case Pg.7

Looks like a very intellectual debate!

Regarding the author wanting the airbags to deploy for minimal impacts - that is not a good idea, as many have pointed out already. I'd like to add that the Airbag assembly is expensive to replace. If my Jazz was to be involved in an accident involving Airbag deployment, the replacement alone would cost me close to 1,00,000!! That's excluding other repair bills.

I agree that airbags might save my life in a crash, but I wouldn't want them deploying when not called for. It might unnecessarily injure me and make me a lot poorer!
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Old 16th June 2012, 10:41   #127
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Default Re: Toyota Fortuner crashes, Air bags did not deploy *EDIT* Another similar case Pg.7

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Originally Posted by tsk1979 View Post
I think the threshold for fortuner airbag deployment must be high, because many time 4x4 vehicles suffer impact during offroading.
To me this looks like a very plausible and useful explanation. The sensitivity threshold of the sensors for the vehicle could be higher than probably some other cars.

Slightly OT: Regarding airbag deployment while not using seat belts, I have seen one GV crash though where the airbags did deploy even when the occupants were not wearing the seat belts. Don't know, its designed like that or was a fault.

Last edited by wanderer4x4 : 16th June 2012 at 10:46.
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Old 16th June 2012, 10:56   #128
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Default Re: Toyota Fortuner crashes, Air bags did not deploy *EDIT* Another similar case Pg.7

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Originally Posted by wanderer4x4 View Post
Slightly OT: Regarding airbag deployment while not using seat belts, I have seen one GV crash though where the airbags did deploy even when the occupants were not wearing the seat belts. Don't know, its designed like that or was a fault.
Must be some fault. It is not supposed to happen that way.
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Old 16th June 2012, 11:05   #129
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Default Re: Toyota Fortuner crashes, Air bags did not deploy *EDIT* Another similar case Pg.7

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Originally Posted by wanderer4x4 View Post
To me this looks like a very plausible and useful explanation. The sensitivity threshold of the sensors for the vehicle could be higher than probably some other cars.

Slightly OT: Regarding airbag deployment while not using seat belts, I have seen one GV crash though where the airbags did deploy even when the occupants were not wearing the seat belts. Don't know, its designed like that or was a fault.
Each manufacturer follows their own standards when it comes to airbag deployment. So it isnt necessary that if the GV airbags deployed means that they will deploy in all cars.

Quote:
Triggering conditions
Airbags are designed to deploy in frontal and near-frontal collisions more severe than a threshold defined by the regulations governing vehicle construction in whatever particular market the vehicle is intended for: U.S. regulations require deployment in crashes at least equivalent in deceleration to a 23 km/h (14 mph) barrier collision, or similarly, striking a parked car of similar size across the full front of each vehicle at about twice the speed.[38] International regulations are performance based, rather than technology-based, so airbag deployment threshold is a function of overall vehicle design.

Unlike crash tests into barriers, real-world crashes typically occur at angles other than directly into the front of the vehicle, and the crash forces usually are not evenly distributed across the front of the vehicle. Consequently, the relative speed between a striking and struck vehicle required to deploy the airbag in a real-world crash can be much higher than an equivalent barrier crash. Because airbag sensors measure deceleration, vehicle speed is not a good indicator of whether an airbag should have deployed. Airbags can deploy due to the vehicle's undercarriage striking a low object protruding above the roadway due to the resulting deceleration.

The airbag sensor is a MEMS accelerometer, which is a small integrated circuit with integrated micro mechanical elements. The microscopic mechanical element moves in response to rapid deceleration, and this motion causes a change in capacitance, which is detected by the electronics on the chip that then sends a signal to fire the airbag. The most common MEMS accelerometer in use is the ADXL-50 by Analog Devices, but there are other MEMS manufacturers as well.

Initial attempts using mercury switches did not work well. Before MEMS, the primary system used to deploy airbags was called a "rolamite". A rolamite is a mechanical device, consisting of a roller suspended within a tensioned band. As a result of the particular geometry and material properties used, the roller is free to translate with little friction or hysteresis. This device was developed at Sandia National Laboratories. The rolamite, and similar macro-mechanical devices were used in airbags until the mid-1990s when they were universally replaced with MEMS.

Nearly all airbags are designed to automatically deploy in the event of a vehicle fire when temperatures reach 150-200 °C (300-400 °F).[39] This safety feature, often termed auto-ignition, helps to ensure that such temperatures do not cause an explosion of the entire airbag module.

Today, airbag triggering algorithms are becoming much more complex. They try to reduce unnecessary deployments and to adapt the deployment speed to the crash conditions. The algorithms are considered valuable intellectual property. Experimental algorithms may take into account such factors as the weight of the occupant, the seat location, seatbelt use, and even attempt to determine if a baby seat is present.
Source: Airbag - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Last edited by vikram_d : 16th June 2012 at 11:07.
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Old 16th June 2012, 11:12   #130
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Default Re: Toyota Fortuner crashes, Air bags did not deploy *EDIT* Another similar case Pg.7

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It seem's that all of you are in agreement that the impact did not merit the deployment of the Airbags.



From reading the post of the original author of this thread and recounting my experience - I feel Toyota is just taking the Indian consumer for a ride and their Airbags in the Fortuner and probably the Innova are redundant, useless and just there for embellishment.

We have collectively lost faith in the Toyota brand.
Why drag the innova in this as well, have you experienced it? I have at speed of 80, in an impact and roll over accident. Everyone walked out, the airbags did deploy.

Like every one else I do feel that the angle and intensity of impact does not warrant for airbag deployment. Also like some one pointed the Fortuner is 4x4 and is subject to a lot of abuse where a damaged wheel or impact on under body parts are common. This might be the reason why the threshold level on Innova or another sedan or even yeti (its definitely not an off roader) might be different from Fortuner.


On a hilly road I would not have left my lane, imagine if instead of the rocky face there would have been a valley. But these are split second decisions and we can have a lot of opinions once it has happened doing it is a totally different ball game.

I am glad that everyone is safe. All's well that ends well.
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Old 16th June 2012, 11:33   #131
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Default Re: Toyota Fortuner crashes, Air bags did not deploy *EDIT* Another similar case Pg.7

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Originally Posted by tsk1979 View Post
I think the threshold for fortuner airbag deployment must be high, because many time 4x4 vehicles suffer impact during offroading.
This seems to be an apt explanation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by wanderer4x4 View Post
Slightly OT: Regarding airbag deployment while not using seat belts, I have seen one GV crash though where the airbags did deploy even when the occupants were not wearing the seat belts. Don't know, its designed like that or was a fault.
Quote:
Originally Posted by raj_5004 View Post
Must be some fault. It is not supposed to happen that way.
Air bags needn't always be connected to seat belts. Sometimes, seat weight sensors does the job of finding out if there is someone to save on the passenger seat.
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Old 16th June 2012, 11:48   #132
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Default Re: Toyota Fortuner crashes, Air bags did not deploy *EDIT* Another similar case Pg.7

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Air bags needn't always be connected to seat belts. Sometimes, seat weight sensors does the job of finding out if there is someone to save on the passenger seat.
Even when the seat sensors did detect that there is a person on the seat who is not wearing seatbelts, how did it allow the Airbags to open?

Or maybe in older gen vehicles like GV, this essential safety check has been skipped. Just an assumption though.
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Old 20th June 2012, 13:37   #133
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Default Re: Toyota Fortuner crashes, Air bags did not deploy *EDIT* Another similar case Pg.7

Two incidents I have had,
1) I was driving the Acura 3.2TL going out of Pittsburgh area late at night and it was snowing lightly. This was a road through the woods and slightly hilly with lots of curves. After one of the blind curves, I found two large deers in the middle of the road and hit one of them head on. The speed was about 50mph when I noticed them and would be about 30-40mph on impact. The poor animal was dead and tossed down in the valley. There was significant damage to the bumper, side fender and the fluids were leaking out of the car, but the airbags were not deployed. Later I lodged my complaint with Acura about the airbags and they were prompt in letting me know that the airbags wre not to be deployed in this case and it actually prevented the related injuries to the occupants. I was satisfied with the response.
2) I was driving my Baleno from Delhi to Chandigarh (again late at night) and suddenly a tractor trolley appeared crossing the highway (perpendicular to me!). I slammed the brakes and would have hit the rear end of the trolley at 40-50Kph. There was substantial damage to the car and the airbags did not deploy as it did not have any!, but the seat belts saved me from any impact as they did in case 1. Besides being dazed, I could not find my glasses and after much searching found them lying next to the rear wind shield and intact! The impact had thrown the glasses from my face and they hit the front wind shield and tossed them all the way to the back. They were plastic lenses and maybe that saved them, but then broke off when my son (4 yrs at that time)accidently stepped on them while they were on a bed.. so you never know.

The learning for me from both of these incidents has been the importance of the seat belts.
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Old 20th June 2012, 17:31   #134
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Default Re: Toyota Fortuner crashes, Air bags did not deploy *EDIT* Another similar case Pg.7

I know this is a very serious discussion and quite informative. I do not mean this as a joke, but how can this happen?



Or is this just a prank?

Rajan
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Old 20th June 2012, 18:12   #135
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Default Re: Toyota Fortuner crashes, Air bags did not deploy *EDIT* Another similar case Pg.7

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Originally Posted by PatchyBoy View Post
I know this is a very serious discussion and quite informative. I do not mean this as a joke, but how can this happen?

Or is this just a prank?

Rajan
It's a very old ad by Ikea.

Old Lady Whacks Car, Air Bag Explodes, IKEA Promoted - Adrants

Edit: Found the complete ad.


Last edited by vikram_d : 20th June 2012 at 18:19.
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