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Old 1st October 2012, 17:18   #46
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Default Re: Concrete Highways and Tyre Quality

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Originally Posted by Jignesh View Post
Hello,

Can tyre bursts be linked to general Tyre quality in India & other developing countries? I mean in India we have pretty recently (probably in last 7 - 10 years) started driving at speeds exceeding 100 kmph, but are the normal tyres sold here capable of withstanding these speeds over long period? Also given the condition of roads (read potholes) here in India the tyres suffer much more battering than probably anywhere in the World. Add to this the fact that Roads are built with latest & better technologies in developed Countries when compared to India.

I read somewhere that in Germany there are rules to ensure that Car Owners change tyres in summer & winter seasons. Also generally tyre punctures does not happen in Germany & even if it happens then the tyres are not re-used. Infact used tyres from Germany are re-used in other countries.

Thanks,
I tend to agree with you in that road surface alone is not fully responsible for the high incidence of tyre bursts in India. The following tyre-related issues also contribute to bursts :
  1. Though nowadays Indian tyres are speed-rated, any kind of certification by a govt. body, be it speed-rating of a tyre or fuel consumption of a car, is not entirely above suspicion due to high level of corruption in India.
  2. We have a tendency to squeeze maximum mileage out of our tyres and many of us donít give a damn about wear indicators.
  3. Most of the tyre repair industry works on jugaad methods, be it separation of tyres from rims or puncture repairs.
  4. Broken and potholed roads, often temporarily repaired by filling large craters with stones with sharp edges, take a toll on the tyres over time.
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Old 1st October 2012, 22:59   #47
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Default Re: Concrete Highways and Tyre Quality

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I think a fairly high number of accidents on concrete highways like Mumbai Pune Expressway will be because of a) tyre bursts and b) loss of traction on turns. I hope the govt agencies do a thorough causal analysis of all accidents that happen on major highways till date (if they arent doing so already). Somehow I get a feel that concrete highways may have higher chances of accidents.

I think the Agra Expressway is much straighter than the MPEW and perhaps instances of speeding are much higher, increasing the risk manifold. MPEW could have a fair number of accidents because of people driving faster on curved sections and losing traction.

Whatever the long-term benefits of Concrete highways are, I hate them. I dont like the excessive tyre noise, and I somehow never feel safe as the car approaches triple digit speeds.

In contrast, some of the bitumen sections on the newly laid National Highways are exceptionally good with regards to tyre noise, and evenness of the road.

I hope they make less and less of concrete roads in the future. A bitumen road designed and executed properly can last a fairly long time. The regular arguments on tar roads needing yearly overhauls and pitting during monsoons are possibly because of the high percentage of poorly laid out roads in the country. Of course thanks a lot to corruption.
i can say with conviction about the mumbai pune expressway.
i recently survived a crash due to loss of traction after the 1st tunnel from pune side.
my brother was driving in first lane at around 100kmph.
there was sudden loss of traction and we enetered into the garden area and crashed into a water collection bunk.the garden shrubs slowed us down to some extent.we were running on bridgestone g3 potenza which had done around 30000km with good maintenance tyre rotation balancing etc.
after crash we hailed a st bus and went to the nearest emergency call where the phone was working but nobody picked up. so my brother pushed an emergency service button which activated the emergency response team and within 10mins the IRB patrol team was at the spot.our car was difficult to spot as it had enetered the shrubs and only the st bus driver could see from top.

cause: lot of mud and sludge flows from the adjacent unbanked garden onto the first lane.so do not drive in first lane in monsoon on mumbai pune expressway.
the maintenance contractor IRB is least bothered as everyday this monsoon 6-7 accidents due to slippages have happened on mumbai pune expressway the highest so far.
the RCC plates have suffred damge and have not been repaired also the top concrete layer has become smoothened due to constant vehicle passage

Last edited by pravdr : 1st October 2012 at 23:00.
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Old 2nd October 2012, 01:26   #48
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Default Re: Concrete Highways and Tyre Quality

I remember many of the US freeways have a concrete top. Why is this an issue in India but not in USA ? Can some experts comment ? I have also seen some concrete freeways in USA but with a small layer of tar on top of it.

http://pubs.usgs.gov/fs/2006/3127/2006-3127.pdf
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Old 2nd October 2012, 09:41   #49
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Default Re: Concrete Highways and Tyre Quality

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Originally Posted by pravdr View Post
i recently survived a crash due to loss of traction after the 1st tunnel from pune side.
cause: lot of mud and sludge flows from the adjacent unbanked garden . the maintenance contractor IRB is least bothered as everyday this monsoon 6-7 accidents due to slippages have happened.
the RCC plates have suffred damge and have not been repaired also the top concrete layer has become smoothened due to constant vehicle passage
Hello Pravdr,

Thank God that you & brother are absolutely safe after the accident. What happened to the Car?

Yes. Poor maintenance is one of roads (especially high speed roads) is the reasons for accident & tyre bursts.

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I remember many of the US freeways have a concrete top. Why is this an issue in India but not in USA ?
Hello idofsuresh,

That is exactly for what I am also trying to find the reason for - why there are more incidents of Tyre bursts & loss of Traction in India & not in developed countries?
Probably the Tyre quality in India is not at par to those available in Developed Countries. Similar analogy may be true for build quality roads also where Indian "jugaad" comes into picture & the "chalega" attitude allows some adjustments in quality do that someone (or everyone) can make some additional profit.

But afterall, it is the Car driver & passengers who are at risk of loss of life & property so they have to be utmost careful. While driving on Indian roads, why not drive at slower speeds? It is not necessary to cross speeds of 100 kmph everytime & experience the thrill. It is already pointed in this thread in earlier posts that over a distance of 120 kms, the difference is just 10 minutes between speeds of 80 & 100 kmph. Thus it is we who have to make a choice - safety or speed.

Thanks,
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Old 2nd October 2012, 14:47   #50
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Default Re: Concrete Highways and Tyre Quality

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Originally Posted by Jignesh View Post
Hello Pravdr,

Hello idofsuresh,

That is exactly for what I am also trying to find the reason for - why there are more incidents of Tyre bursts & loss of Traction in India & not in developed countries?
Probably the Tyre quality in India is not at par to those available in Developed Countries.

But afterall, it is the Car driver & passengers who are at risk of loss of life & property so they have to be utmost careful. While driving on Indian roads, why not drive at slower speeds? It is not necessary to cross speeds of 100 kmph everytime & experience the thrill. It is already pointed in this thread in earlier posts that over a distance of 120 kms, the difference is just 10 minutes between speeds of 80 & 100 kmph. Thus it is we who have to make a choice - safety or speed.

Thanks,
After every accident blame high speeds, recommend lower speeds!! Has anyone analysed and checked the root cause for this accident? Would driving at 80kmph prevent this? So if everyone drives at 20kmph, we wont have accidents.

And can you prove that tyre bursts happen only in India? No accidents elsewhere due to tyre bursts? How can you say all Indian tyres are of poor quality? Or is it that whatever is from the West is good quality, all Indian products are of poor quality.

Last edited by GTO : 4th October 2012 at 12:50. Reason: Do NOT post RUDE messages. Keep it polite, you can send the same message across
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Old 2nd October 2012, 20:51   #51
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Arrow Re: Concrete Highways and Tyre Quality

Good discussion and some very thoughtful insights into the topic. For some reason I never feel comfortable on concrete roads. Maybe because of the excess tire noise or maybe because I have once slipped and fell on a concrete road, but I always felt more ok driving on tar roads. Apart from the tire health & pressure and road conditions, I also feel we should exercise restraint while driving on concrete roads and not push the machines to the limit.
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Old 2nd October 2012, 22:27   #52
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Default Re: Concrete Highways and Tyre Quality

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Originally Posted by idofsuresh View Post
I remember many of the US freeways have a concrete top. Why is this an issue in India but not in USA ? ...
Here are some of the reason
1. Most of US highways are rated for 65mph, which is 104kmph and driver stick to less than 110kmph. Where as India, while the speed limit is 80kmph, most of the cars(high end) would be 120+kmph.

2. In US Tyre is part of vehicle fitness, which needs to be renewed every year. In India, very few of us consider tyre impacts safety

3. Road quality /standards

4. Quality of suspension, in usa, an average suspension is much more softer
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Old 3rd October 2012, 02:16   #53
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Default Re: Concrete Highways and Tyre Quality

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Originally Posted by apachelongbow View Post
After every accident blame high speeds, recommend lower speeds.
Could you confirm whether all the accidents that you have come across happened even after

1. Sticking to legal limits?
2. Obeying the traffic rules & regulations to the dot?
3. the vehicles going thru the fitness certifications & having mechanicals & electricals in proper working condition?

Most of those I came across had one or more of the above conditions violated!

Quote:
Originally Posted by apachelongbow View Post
Has anyone analysed and checked the root cause for this accident? Would driving at 80kmph prevent this?
Precisely. We are all trying to gather more information on these points thru this debate right ? This is exactly what I asked in my reply on the very first page of this thread! I am not sure anyone has answered this question.

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Originally Posted by apachelongbow View Post
So if everyone drives at 20kmph, we wont have accidents.
I know some people [especially elders] sticking on to these speeds to prevent accidents; and they are successful too!

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Originally Posted by apachelongbow View Post
And can you prove that tyre bursts happen only in India? No accidents elsewhere due to tyre bursts?
Not specific to India, happens especially in HOT conditions [and such countries] from what I know.

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Originally Posted by apachelongbow View Post
How can you blindly say all Indian tyres are of poor quality?
He never said that! He pointed a possibility to that, nothing wrong in it!

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Originally Posted by apachelongbow View Post
whatever is from the West is good quality, all Indian products are of poor quality.
Lets leave the competition, are you sure ALL INDIAN products [or other country products sold in India] are of great quality?

My answer is NO! I do agree that there are companies who make/distribute good products, but there are enough bad quality stuffs too. Who should we blame it for? The companies who dare to make/distribute sub standard products or the law authorities who don't have stringent rules to prevent the interests of customers? I hope you know that the Western countries do have stringent rules to tackle such products/manufacturers right?

Last edited by GTO : 4th October 2012 at 12:51. Reason: Quoted post edited
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Old 3rd October 2012, 09:31   #54
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Default Re: Concrete Highways and Tyre Quality

@manjubp,
In the UK 70mph is the law, and Police look the other way till about 85mph. Most of Europe excluding Scandinavia and Benelux is on 130kph, France used to be 140 till they reduced 10kph to join the norm. I have done 100+mph on many of the Autoroutes with no issues. Many of the expressways are concrete and tyre burst accidents are almost unheard of.

A soft suspension is more prone to misbehaviour than a taut sporty one. However, on these highways you seldom, if ever, need to make a sharp correction, so is almost irrelevant.
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Old 3rd October 2012, 09:55   #55
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Default Re: Concrete Highways and Tyre Quality

One of the problems may be the soft compound tyres used on hard concrete with joints. Typical desi tyres like the old-type MRF with thick treads and thicker sidewalls may not be as vulnerable to tyre bursts in hot conditions and undulating concrete. Concrete by nature reflects surrounding conditions and amplifies it. If the climate is hot, concrete will take the heat and amplify it and if the climate is cold concrete would be colder. So in north west europe and North East of US where it rarely goes above 32 degree tyre bursts need not happen even on concrete and even then they may be using improved concrete laying machines which do not leave joints and it is a continuous stretch of concrete.

Near my home in native, there is a road which has been recently relaid with *Asphalt concrete with rubberized top coat* and this is supposed to be literally weather-proof. but when I take my older cars on this road I am very conscious because unlike the regular bitumen-topped with layers of rock/metal underneath acting as cushion. This one seems rock hard and unyielding, almost seems like the suspension and tyres would be crying on this surface, so make it a point to go slow though the road is so smooth that one is always tempted to go faster.
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Old 3rd October 2012, 10:03   #56
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Default Re: Concrete Highways and Tyre Quality

@lurker; Tyres in the UK tend to be softer that elsewhere, due to the wetter conditions.
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Old 3rd October 2012, 10:51   #57
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Default Re: Concrete Highways and Tyre Quality

yes, wet climates are also relatively cooler aren't they. tyre bursts usually do not happen in wet and cold+wet conditions, so soft compound doesn't face any risk in such climates, just gives better grip. Maybe soft tires are mainly an issue in hot environments and hard roads either purely concrete or a mixture of conrete and unyielding top coat. Most tire biggies do their R&D based on climates of Europe, Japan & NA. They may not necessarily be taking conditions in Middle-East or South Asia into account or as their primary criteria to build proper defence mechanisms in their tires against such eventualities.
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Old 3rd October 2012, 11:21   #58
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Default Re: Concrete Highways and Tyre Quality

I dont think we will ever get the answer to the root causes of tyre bursts because the govt anyway doesnt gather enough data on accidents.

For example, if someone needs to do a detailed study on tyre bursts and arrive at some conclusions, the following info may have to be gathered from each accident where tyre bursts are suspected:

1. Month/season of the year
2. Time of the day
3. whether sunny or cloudy or rain
4. Approx temperature during the time of the accident
5. Make & type of the tyre, aspect ratio, etc
6. Inflation levels on surviving tyres
7. Mileage of tyres involved
8. Tread depth of tyres involved
9. type of road
10. rough assessment on the surface of road
11. Speed of the vehicle ( rough guess in case details are not available )
12. type & make of vehicle
13. Age of the tyre in years
14. distance from previous stop/halt

There could be more.. My point is, since instances of tyre bursts are increasing, a detailed study over a period of a year or so may be required so that enough data can be gathered.

There are a number of parameters involved and hopefully over a period of time, we could arrive at some clearer understanding on where things are going wrong. In my view, all or many of the parameters above may play a role in tyre bursts. We just dont know which ones contribute more.

I have a strong suspicion that the instances of tyre bursts per km of Concrete highways will be much larger than bitumen ones.

btw Dont insurance companies capture data like these? I am sure govt can run a campaign together with insurance companies with a view to reduce accidents?
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Old 3rd October 2012, 11:39   #59
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Default Re: Concrete Highways and Tyre Quality

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btw Dont insurance companies capture data like these? I am sure govt can run a campaign together with insurance companies with a view to reduce accidents?
I agree - such a drive will be very useful. They could even do a pilot on the 3 expressways in the country - MPE, Baroda, Yamuna.

Last edited by lancer_rit : 3rd October 2012 at 11:58.
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Old 3rd October 2012, 12:06   #60
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Default Re: Concrete Highways and Tyre Quality

For people wanting to know about is there are no tyre bursts elsewhere, I have been through a tyre burst between Phoenix and LA. The car spun around twice and luckily did not go off the road and it was 2 AM. It was a leased car and I believe the tyres were not that good.

So, most of what we are seeing in India might be because of bad tyres. I dont know if such accidents are rare in bigger vehicles which are not driven at high speed (even if it happens the impact would be less because of lesser speeds).
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