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Old 29th October 2013, 22:38   #16
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Default re: Mobile Phone triggers explosion at Fuel Station?

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Originally Posted by Warwithwheels View Post
Just because you don't wear your helmet for a day, you don't meet with a head injury. But if a accident should take place, the potential damage to the head is definitely considered serious, if we really value what is inside of it. The same applies to this case as well.
What an amazing & brilliant co-relation. Yea right, we are talking exactly the same thing out here. FYI - that's sarcasm.


^^Are you even reading what others are reverting to your point? The cause is static electricity - not the mobile. It's just a medium, not the cause.

And being safe & suggesting guidelines (which exactly are what the mobile manufacturers stating) is completely different than calling someone a moron who uses a mobile near a fuel pump. Read again what I said (and what you quoted too) - it is definitely advisable & a good habit to not take the call or sms right there, but it is NOT necessarily a safety hazard.

If mobiles were a cause of explosions at fuel pumps, there would be enforced rules across the globe for the same, not guidelines. Like wearing seat belts or helmet while driving - that is an enforced rule.

Believe what you want to believe. There is enough myths & superstition in the world - this is just one of so many more.
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Old 30th October 2013, 07:58   #17
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Default re: Mobile Phone triggers explosion at Fuel Station?

As many others have stated - quite right static electricity is the silent culprit in most cases not the mobile phone.
But having said that, an observation.
Often times, I have seen people merrily chatting away on their mobiles at the bunk, while filling up. In 99% of these cases, they are oblivious to the remaining people and their vehicles.
In few such cases, I have witnessed, that this distraction has caused minor scrapes /bumper knocks which could have been avoided had they bothered to end the call before putting the car/bike in gear and pulling out.
While the act of talking/sms'ng on the mobile does not cause fires at the bunk, it does cause some heartburn for the person whose car/bike gets scraped by the fool/moron on the phone.
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Old 30th October 2013, 08:29   #18
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Red face re: Mobile Phone triggers explosion at Fuel Station?

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Originally Posted by tsk1979 View Post
That said, believing just anything without scientific evidence can classify under the behavior you mentioned.
Just to quote what I read from the net, it does say that there isnt any statistics that say cell phones can cause static electricity which will lead to a fire. But cell phone usage may cause the user to get distracted who unknowingly may come into contact with static materials at the bunk which can be a cause for a fire.
http://www.howitworksdaily.com/q-and...etrol-station/
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Old 31st October 2013, 16:54   #19
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Default re: Mobile Phone triggers explosion at Fuel Station?

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Originally Posted by ninjatalli View Post
There is enough myths & superstition in the world - this is just one of so many more.
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Originally Posted by tsk1979 View Post
That said, believing just anything without scientific evidence can classify under the behavior you mentioned.
Folks, I do not think Volkswagen or for that matter any other manufacturer puts in warnings in their User's Manual without any scientific backing; especially when they clearly states that "electromagnetic radiation can generate sparks".

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Though, I have to admit that we do not / cannot practically follow all warnings, let us not brush of warnings as myths, as long as we do not have enough proof otherwise.

An OT from my personal life, which may not be really apt with the above: When I used to ask my dad if God really existed, he replied that since there is no proof that God did not exist, how can we be confident in telling that God does not exist, even if God did not exist; and especially when mankind attributes many of natures questions to unknown force?

Last edited by thoma : 31st October 2013 at 17:13.
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Old 31st October 2013, 17:18   #20
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Default re: Mobile Phone triggers explosion at Fuel Station?

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Though, I have to admit that we do not / cannot practically follow all warnings, let us not brush of warnings as myths, as long as we do not have enough proof otherwise.
Actually we have enough proof that mobile phones have nothing to do with fires at fuel stations its static electricity.

Speaking of electromagnetic radiations, they are all around us. Fuel stations next to mobile phone towers should continuously keep exploding!

There are many myths which are perpetrated so many times, that they become "facts on the internet". For example, the corolies effect, which actually applies to large systems like hurricanes has been used to perpetrate a myth about water rotating clockwise or counter clockwise in a sink hole or toilet

Look at this page
http://www.ems.psu.edu/~fraser/Bad/BadCoriolis.html

You will see "reliable" and "trustworthy" sources perpetrating the myth.
Just because something comes in your owners manual does not make it true. Science works differently.

A theory is presented to explain something
Then it is observed whether the phenomena being observed fit the theory.
Then you have experiment, which can prove or disprove whether its just correlation or just causation.
Then you present the results for peer review, and then if sufficient peers can replicate your experiment, its a success
Once all this is done, you have scientific proof. This is how science works and always have.

The mobile phone myth has time and again being debunked. Static electricity is the leading cause of such incidents, unfortunately, due to this mobile phone myth, many people still die in fuel station fires, because they are not aware of the actual cause.

Rather than wasting time to fiddle with phone, its better to touch car metal body while opening the door, and make sure you are discharged before filling fuel.

The problem is not so much so in India due to our geographic location, but in the cold dry northern latitudes, static electricity is a major risk.

Heck, I have seen sparks jump from a metal object held in my hand to car body when I get out of the car. This spark is enough to ignite gasoline.
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Old 31st October 2013, 17:57   #21
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Default re: Mobile Phone triggers explosion at Fuel Station?

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Originally Posted by tsk1979 View Post
Speaking of electromagnetic radiations, they are all around us. Fuel stations next to mobile phone towers should continuously keep exploding!
Hmm..thought provoking for the layman in me.

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Static electricity is the leading cause of such incidents, unfortunately, due to this mobile phone myth, many people still die in fuel station fires, because they are not aware of the actual cause.
But then why is this important fact not theorized by anyone and corrected by the car and mobile manufacturers? The owner's manual is still the first hand information about the car for a common man.

Last edited by thoma : 31st October 2013 at 18:10.
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Old 31st October 2013, 18:09   #22
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Default re: Mobile Phone triggers explosion at Fuel Station?

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Originally Posted by thoma View Post
Hmm..thought provoking for the layman in me.



But then why is this important fact not theorized by anyone and corrected by the car and mobile manufacturers?
I have absolutely no idea at all. Once a myth perpetrates, it goes on and on. In India, the problem is mostly about people lighting up near fuel. Static is not much of a problem as there are no self filled petrol pumps.

That said, many fuel pumps near population centers in tibet forbid filling fuel in the pump. You have to take it in a can, and fit it far away, so that even if you cause a fire due to static, its contained. In the cold deserts, static is very very dangerous.
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Old 31st October 2013, 18:19   #23
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Default re: Mobile Phone triggers explosion at Fuel Station?

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Originally Posted by tsk1979 View Post
Once a myth perpetrates, it goes on and on.
How true! And people swear by it even after knowing there is no conclusive data for it.

I wonder if we should start debating on whether mobiles (& electronic devices) need to be completely switched off during take-off & landing (on flights), and even simply putting it on airplane mode would not be enough
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Old 31st October 2013, 19:59   #24
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Default Re: Mobile Phone triggers explosion at Fuel Station?

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Originally Posted by ninjatalli View Post
How true! And people swear by it even after knowing there is no conclusive data for it.

I wonder if we should start debating on whether mobiles (& electronic devices) need to be completely switched off during take-off & landing (on flights), and even simply putting it on airplane mode would not be enough
Actually, 90% of the people simply put it in airplane mode and put it out of sight.
I have rarely seen anybody actually shut down their tablet/mobile.
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Old 31st October 2013, 22:24   #25
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Default Re: Mobile Phone triggers explosion at Fuel Station?

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Originally Posted by tsk1979 View Post
Actually, 90% of the people simply put it in airplane mode and put it out of sight.
I have rarely seen anybody actually shut down their tablet/mobile.

Thankfully, this is now "Officially" allowed starting Monday in some US airlines. And by end of the year in most. This was basically since testing shows mobile phones do not inetefere with Aircraft (some flights actually sell WiFi, and some are planning to sell GSM service in-flight).

Quote:
"The agency expects airlines to allow passengers to safely use their devices in airplane mode, gate-to-gate, by the end of 2013," .
Quote:
Delta says it has already completed testing and submitted a plan. Pending the FAA's decision, it could be in place as early as tomorrow.
http://www.faa.gov/about/initiatives/ped/faq/

http://www.theverge.com/2013/10/31/5...ases-of-flight
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Old 1st November 2013, 11:15   #26
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Default Re: Mobile Phone triggers explosion at Fuel Station?

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Originally Posted by NetfreakBombay View Post
Thankfully, this is now "Officially" allowed starting Monday in some US airlines. And by end of the year in most. This was basically since testing shows mobile phones do not inetefere with Aircraft (some flights actually sell WiFi, and some are planning to sell GSM service in-flight).


]
Correct, however, it should be noted that it is flight mode only.

Here is a recent survey of reported mobile device incidents collected and investigated by NASA

http://asrs.arc.nasa.gov/docs/rpsts/ped.pdf

As you will it does mention several cases of interference. When reading through this report what struck me was that a fair number of these incident were not about interference but about potential fire risks. Quite a number of incidents are about smoke and devices heating up, all sorts of battery related issues.

Untill a few years ago, I had access to the incident reporting system of one of the major airlines. Just out of curiousity and because I'm interested in avation and I'm a private pilot, I follewed this daily. I saw several interferences related issues being reported. The problem has been, I would say, two fold. It is very sporadic and is very difficult if not impossible to replicate on the ground. This particular airline had a protocal in place. When the cockpit crew noticed something akin to interference they would investigate and in many cases where able to trace it to an individual device/passenger. They would switch it off, interference would disappear, swicht back on, interference would re-appear. They would note make/model/serial number of the device. Back on the ground they were never able to replicate the same problem with a similar device. Interference is a very complex phenonema. Many different factors contributing to it.

Since, the aviation industry and regulators have moved on, with the move to allow continuous use of your device as long as it is in Flight mode in the US.

Those of you with some basic knowledge and understanding of Radio Propogation theory would now that as long as it has an antenna, it can cause interference even if switched off or in flight mode.

The better safe than sorry slogan seems to be surpassed by what passengers think is safe and convenient. And of course, I don't think we have ever seen a crash happen due to interference. But there are plenty unexplained incidents left. And as the above report suggest, lots of battery issues, posing real fire hazards. Remarkebly I have never ever read anyting on those related risks as part of the mobile device policies.

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Old 1st November 2013, 13:51   #27
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Default Re: Mobile Phone triggers explosion at Fuel Station?

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Correct, however, it should be noted that it is flight mode only.
Flight mode can be turned-off for WiFi except during take-off and landing.

If WiFi + GSM can cause interference, Airlines would not be charging for providing WiFi during flight. And in-flight GSM is in advanced stages of approvals.
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Old 1st November 2013, 14:07   #28
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Default Re: Mobile Phone triggers explosion at Fuel Station?

Perfectly summed up by the Mythbusters team!

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Old 1st November 2013, 14:27   #29
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Default Re: Mobile Phone triggers explosion at Fuel Station?

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Originally Posted by NetfreakBombay View Post
Flight mode can be turned-off for WiFi except during take-off and landing.

If WiFi + GSM can cause interference, Airlines would not be charging for providing WiFi during flight. And in-flight GSM is in advanced stages of approvals.
Bear in mind that for WiFi and in flight GSM planes get specially equipped and I also believe get "hardened" to interference issues. I've seen some articles on that, I'll need to look it up.

In both cases there will be a WiFi and or a GSM infrastructure in the plane. Which means that your devices will only need to operate at very low power settings. If there is no GSM coverage your device will go to maximum transmit power to see if it can detect a network. I believe the airlines are using some sort of satelite backhaul to get the various WiFi and GSM signals back to earth. So your GSM device will not be communicating directly with the towers on the ground. That would create a whole range of problems.

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Old 1st November 2013, 15:41   #30
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Default Re: Mobile Phone triggers explosion at Fuel Station?

Just came across theis story from a 777 Captain:

http://edition.cnn.com/2013/10/31/op...html?hpt=hp_c3

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