Go Back   Team-BHP > Buckle Up > Street Experiences


Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 25th August 2014, 15:52   #31
BHPian
 
torque!!'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Cary, NC
Posts: 95
Thanked: 87 Times
Default Re: August 2014 Proposal: Stiffer fines, Penalty points for Traffic Offenders

A step in the absolute right direction. I have had to pay up fines a couple of times during my stay in the US and have seen numerous friends and colleagues shell out huge fines for reasonably moderate offences. I'll talk about my fines and how much they hurt me and make a comparison to what is being proposed here in India. First time, I was caught for speeding. 73mph in a 65 mph zone. If you think about it, that's not too much above the limit and cops are know to let you go if you are <10 above the limit. But as luck would have it, I was fined $180. Just to put $180 in context, that would buy you a 16 GB iPod Touch.

The next time, I was fined for taking a right turn in a 'No turn on Red' zone. Generally right turns in the US are free unless specified with a 'No turn on Red' sign. Fine? $300. That's good enough to buy you a 16GB iPad Mini.

So if we put the fines we have in the US in context with the proposed fines in India, I would say that they still are not as high. However, we all agree that we are a poor country and a Rs. 5000 fine; that's good enough to buy you a low end smart phone; will be a great deterrent to commit traffic offences.

I agree with others who say that this will increase bribery. But the bribes will also go so high that it will definitely act as a great deterrent to bad driving and indiscipline on the road.

The one thing that should perhaps have been on the list of offences is hazardous lane changes. People, even on a fast highway like the Mumbai Pune highway, change lanes abruptly without any indication and without even caring to look if there is a vehicle behind you!
torque!! is offline   (2) Thanks
Old 25th August 2014, 16:18   #32
BHPian
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Mumbai - Pune
Posts: 136
Thanked: 46 Times
Default Re: August 2014 Proposal: Stiffer fines, Penalty points for Traffic Offenders

I seriously hope this thing is implemented. I want people not following rules to shell out a fortune and create a giant hole in their pocket. Traveling through Hinjewadi daily, I see the worst traffic ever and the rules are broken here without any guilt. And mind you all these are IT guys who would not dare to speed or not wear helmet inside office premises. But outside they are driving like rowdies.
raksrules is offline  
Old 25th August 2014, 16:38   #33
Senior - BHPian
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Bangalore
Posts: 1,930
Thanked: 1,390 Times
Default Re: August 2014 Proposal: Stiffer fines, Penalty points for Traffic Offenders

My only nitpick is that the number of penalty points for DUI is on the lower side. A speeding offence + a DUI should be the end of your driving career.

Also, didn't understand the difference between "Overspeeding" and "Racing".
binand is offline   (1) Thanks
Old 25th August 2014, 16:46   #34
BHPian
 
StepUP!'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Pune
Posts: 215
Thanked: 365 Times
Default Re: August 2014 Proposal: Stiffer fines, Penalty points for Traffic Offenders

A great step unless implemented well

Why I don't see any fines for using mobile phone while driving, smoking while driving, hit and run, headlights-taillights not working etc

Unless we remove "human" from system and automate the process we can't get rid of bribes.
  1. First and foremost pay well to these cops. They are doing commendable job; standing in between of dirt, pollution, sun etc
  2. Empower traffic cop as I feel they virtually don't have any powers
StepUP! is offline   (1) Thanks
Old 25th August 2014, 16:47   #35
Senior - BHPian
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Pune
Posts: 1,038
Thanked: 1,390 Times
Default Re: August 2014 Proposal: Stiffer fines, Penalty points for Traffic Offenders

Rs.1 Lakh for using vehicle without registration? If this law came into office and if this compaign is run in Jammu- Srinagar - Ladakh patch only for one day, it will generate enough revenues to sponsor a railway track from Jammu to Not just Srinagar but till Leh! After seeing so many red sticker 'temp registration' vehicles there, I wondered anyone was even buying a new car.

The fines are very sharp, and even though it may mean increase in bribery, let it be. Only slight worry is, police should not turn 'too' corrupt to single out an innocent man in your-word-against-ours standoff.
ani_meher is offline  
Old 25th August 2014, 17:06   #36
Senior - BHPian
 
rr_zen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Chennai, India
Posts: 1,710
Thanked: 258 Times
Default Re: August 2014 Proposal: Stiffer fines, Penalty points for Traffic Offenders

A step in the right direction no doubt but the implementation and governance are two things that I would be worried about.

Also, I would have expected to see the 'STOP' line violation as one of the line items. It is a pain to encounter vehicles of all sorts and sizes trying to inch forward with every second when the red light is on. God knows what in the world those drivers/riders want to achieve in life by doing that !
rr_zen is offline   (1) Thanks
Old 25th August 2014, 17:07   #37
BHPian
 
charanreddy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Bangalore
Posts: 140
Thanked: 137 Times
Default Re: August 2014 Proposal: Stiffer fines, Penalty points for Traffic Offenders

I agree to the proposed changes in spirit and wholeheartedly believe this is the ideal state we need to reach to. BUT It will not help at this point in time as

1. In a country like ours where infrastructure is bad and traffic cops are insensitive, higher fines will mean higher harassment. Cops will say "You know what the new fine for jumping signal is.. 5000! You pay me 500 as bribe or suffer in court"

2. How many cops ever care to capture evidence of wrong doing. I have seen a few who have cameras and try to take pictures, but majority of them are too highhanded when they give out fines. I have seen that in a city like bangalore it becomes difficult to converse with police if you don't know kannada, how will you convince them to listen to you about evidence. Also I believe motorists can demand to see evidence from the Traffic Management Center in Ashok Nagar which has a feed from the traffic cameras. If some has used it, can you let the forum know how it exactly works ?

I believe the govt. first needs to sort out problems like setting up a robust process to collect fines. Something like - a policeman will ask for fine if and only if there is proof of wrong doing which will be admissible in court and the consumer must have the option to challenge this is court. Collecting fines based on policeman's word is a strict no-no.

Also govt. needs to hand out very tough fines and punishment for police who misuse their position for bribes. This needs to communicated to the public as well so that they will not be helpless when a policeman takes undue advantage.

I feel the police should launch the points system and should increase the fines to a limited extent so as to deter breaking traffic rules, but the suggested being implemented right away will lead to harassment and large scale bribery.
charanreddy is offline  
Old 25th August 2014, 17:17   #38
BHPian
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Bangalore
Posts: 100
Thanked: 2 Times
Default Re: August 2014 Proposal: Stiffer fines, Penalty points for Traffic Offenders

Here is an easy solution for mitigating the corruption issues raised. Introduce a variable pay component @10% of fine collected for traffic police. Catch is an upper cap of 100% of salary drawn before the variable pay was introduced. Thus every traffic policeman can double their income overnight! Any instances of corruption can lead to instant dismissal as per terms in contract.
u_chill is offline  
Old 25th August 2014, 17:26   #39
BHPian
 
charanreddy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Bangalore
Posts: 140
Thanked: 137 Times
Default Re: August 2014 Proposal: Stiffer fines, Penalty points for Traffic Offenders

Quote:
Originally Posted by u_chill View Post
Here is an easy solution for mitigating the corruption issues raised. Introduce a variable pay component @10% of fine collected for traffic police. Catch is an upper cap of 100% of salary drawn before the variable pay was introduced. Thus every traffic policeman can double their income overnight! Any instances of corruption can lead to instant dismissal as per terms in contract.
Though this sounds good, The suspension / dismissal part is impossible to implement. Also it is better for the cop to collect a bribe of 20% than a govt salary of 10% (No Income tax this way ) Most higher ups get a part of the fines collected. Also there is a rate for everything, i.e. A to be suspended cop can give XX lakhs and get out of it. Heck this is a country where you have enough money and you can get out a hit and run case with enough evidence. Just look at how a few high profile cases are languishing in the courts.

Sorry to sound negative, but we live in a country where the common man is only safe as long as he is away from the action. Once something bad happens (Like an accident or a tussle with a representative of the law, the official machinery that is supposed to protect and ensure fair treatment is so screwed and insensitive that your normal life is pretty much over). To an extent I had experienced this when my bike was stolen and I had to get help from the representatives of law to get the documents necessary to certify that my bike was indeed lost and not recovered. Un-neccesary visits, long waiting times, bribe demands, taunts for not knowing kannada etc etc. The whole process took 15 months and all I asked them was to give a certificate saying the bike was not traceable, forget doing some actual work and recovering it.

Call me paranoid but I am extremely unwilling to trust these people and any decision to increase their powers over us (Steeper fines etc.) should not be taken lightly in the name of greater good.

Last edited by charanreddy : 25th August 2014 at 17:40. Reason: comments added.
charanreddy is offline   (2) Thanks
Old 25th August 2014, 17:27   #40
Senior - BHPian
 
srishiva's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Bengaluru
Posts: 3,466
Thanked: 692 Times
Default Re: August 2014 Proposal: Stiffer fines, Penalty points for Traffic Offenders

I think the current rules should be enforced strictly first. There seems to be no connection between the people who administer these and the people who make up the rules.

Jut for the heck of doing something, there are lot of rules and laws that being thought up. Our country lacks implementation stupids!

First make laws to convict people who dont do their duties. Too many laws, too many departments will only increase bribes.

Last edited by srishiva : 25th August 2014 at 17:30.
srishiva is offline  
Old 25th August 2014, 17:29   #41
Senior - BHPian
 
audioholic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: BengaLuru
Posts: 3,018
Thanked: 4,202 Times
Default Re: August 2014 Proposal: Stiffer fines, Penalty points for Traffic Offenders

Setting a monthly target for traffic cops will definitely ease or remove chancesof corruption. Nowadays cops in bangalore are so lazy, that if they are really catching violators, that means they are completely broke for some reason. Else we will find them under the shade of a tree, sipping tea.

Setting targets will ensure that they will proactively catch offenders and fine them at actual rates instead of letting them go for a bribe. In this way, people will also become more vigilant and think twice before they think of jumping a signal or not wearing seatbelts or so.
audioholic is offline  
Old 25th August 2014, 18:03   #42
BHPian
 
Altocumulus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: BLR / KOL
Posts: 554
Thanked: 469 Times
Default Re: August 2014 Proposal: Stiffer fines, Penalty points for Traffic Offenders

Quote:
Originally Posted by audioholic View Post
Setting a monthly target for traffic cops will definitely ease or remove chancesof corruption. Nowadays cops in bangalore are so lazy, that if they are really catching violators, that means they are completely broke for some reason. Else we will find them under the shade of a tree, sipping tea.

Setting targets will ensure that they will proactively catch offenders and fine them at actual rates instead of letting them go for a bribe. In this way, people will also become more vigilant and think twice before they think of jumping a signal or not wearing seatbelts or so.
This will backfire and I am saying this through experience. Kolkata has the target concept. The cops when not meeting their targets purposely shut of a right or left green signal within 5 seconds suddenly and catch you for jumping the light. This was confirmed by a sergeant himself who stays in our area. Their excuse is they have no other way to meet their targets. I have never given bribe in Kolkata till date, actually never asked for either. Always a challan or spot fine however 90% times for following the rules

I would also add, I was let go a couple of times as well without fine when speaking to the sergeants nicely.

When in Mumbai (5 years back) it was simple. Bike = Rs 20 and Car = Rs 50. Standard rates around Malad for bribes.

Back to the topic, very good step however I think the rates are very steep which cops will take unnecessary advantage of.
Altocumulus is offline   (1) Thanks
Old 25th August 2014, 18:26   #43
BHPian
 
TheTeacher's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Space-Time
Posts: 477
Thanked: 314 Times
Default Re: August 2014 Proposal: Stiffer fines, Penalty points for Traffic Offenders

This is all well and good, but the Traffic Police need to get their act together first, or it's like putting the cart before the horse.

Let me explain.

At many intersections, the signal changes from green to red in about one second. So I could be entering the intersection on a green and then be violating by going through on a red, for no fault of mine. This is a common ploy for catching motorists, telling them there is camera evidence of going through on a red, so pay up. I have been a victim of this.

In California, there is a precise formula that is used, based on the speed limit of that road on which you approach the signal. The light stays yellow long enough for you to clear the intersection if you are going at the max speed limit. This could be several seconds. So one brakes to a halt if one is little too far from the intersection, but if you are close, no need to slam on the brakes and create a situation because you have enough time to sail through.

Another rule is that if you are waiting on a red and cross traffic is flowing through because they have a green, you CANNOT get into the intersection EVEN if you get a green till all of the cross traffic clears the intersection.

Yet another rule is that even if you have a green, you cannot enter the intersection unless you are sure you can get through to the other side while the light is still green. This will apply when there is bad stop and go traffic, and is intended to prevent the intersection being jammed with vehicles unable to move forward, and thereby preventing cross traffic from flowing through even though they have a green.

These are all simple but effective rules for smooth flowing traffic. But can you see any of this happening in India? Either by TP designing effective intersections and signal lights, or motorists following rules?

On the obstructing traffic issue: I once parked on an extremely wide road in Chennai at the extreme edge of the road, along the compound wall of an apartment complex, in between two concrete ramps which were the in-out ways for the complex. About 50 metres behind were many cars parked on the same side of the road. I was away for half an hour at the dentist, and came back to find my car booted for parking in a "No Parking" zone. I protested that there was no sign anywhere prohibiting parking. I was told that unless there was a sign permitting parking, all streets were no parking. I asked why the cars 50 metres away were not booted. Answer was that they had parked near shops, so leniency was shown, but I had parked near an apartment complex. The ticket I got was not for parking in a no parking zone, but for "obstructing traffic". Even with my parked car, there was space for three buses to travel in parallel on the left hand side of the road. Go figure.

I'm sorry, I'm pessimistic about a half-baked approach instead of a holistic one.

Unless corruption in RTOs is eliminated, signals are corrected, lanes and stop lines properly marked, cops trained, motroists trained (cancel driving licences on a rolling basis and conduct a proper written exam on driving rules, then follow up with a real and proper driving test), etc. none of this will work.

I agree things need to change, but fixing the things I mentioned above will have a much bigger positive impact on safety then mere fines. Most junta will just bribe their way out.
TheTeacher is offline   (3) Thanks
Old 26th August 2014, 02:52   #44
Newbie
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: chennai
Posts: 14
Thanked: 7 Times
Default Re: August 2014 Proposal: Stiffer fines, Penalty points for Traffic Offenders

OMG, I'm 100% sure it'll be disastrous to commuters if this gets implemented.

This will only increase the income of cops.

The reason why I'm saying this is India is full of law-breaking lawmakers. The cops (traffic cops, in this case) who're supposed to safeguard the traffic rules, would misuse this completely.

Traffic Cops are the biggest nuisance in Chennai. Tell me something... how many times have you seen the cops book anyone for violating a law? Seldom they do. They would only bargain. Well, bargain is too soft a word. They would actually threaten you that you'll have to pay a huge amount as fine in the court if they charge you, and would ask you to better pay Rs.500 or Rs.1000 and leave. And the worst part is most people pay them and leave.

And mind you, during office rush hours, there are several culprits who would actually try to loot money from you even if you're not at fault.

They exploit the fact that you don't have time. It has happened to me a couple of times too. And I have never paid a single rupee to them so far. Thankfully I wasn't in a hurry on those occasions. Probably I would give up while I rush for a client meeting or so! God, I can't even imagine that.

Overall, this will be disastrous for commuters in Chennai - particularly for those who follow traffic rules perfectly. And I mean it.
arun2014 is offline  
Old 26th August 2014, 07:39   #45
Senior - BHPian
 
Soumyajit9's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: 10010
Posts: 1,508
Thanked: 1,650 Times
Default Re: August 2014 Proposal: Stiffer fines, Penalty points for Traffic Offenders

I see a lot of mixed responses with a slight % more in welcoming the change.
Those who feel that bribery and misuse of power of cops would play a role in this new change, are correct with their point too.

But friends, you need to see the bigger picture.
Please, please do away with the mindset that how will poor people pay.

Like I had posted earlier, someone with a 2 wheeler is not from a economically poorer section of society.
2 Wheeler or a 4 Wheeler is a luxury, not a neccessity.

Think of a newspaper vendor, a milkman. Are they poor ? Nopes, they are not.
They have made enough profits to apply for a loan and buy a 2 wheeler.
Our milkman and newspaper vendors come on a TVS Xcel Champ (or something of that sort). That costs some 30k (may be, i don't know). A helmet costs 500 bucks. When they have the money / loan to buy a 30k product, how much more do they need to buy a Rs.500 product ?

A poor person is a vegetable vendor who walks with his cart, or on a bicycle. That is a poor person. Not the sort of idiots who break traffic rules on motorized vehicles.

EDIT: Forgot to mention about bribery. Will that change ?
Will making a Rs.20 fine, stop bribery ? No, that won't.
So please do away with the thought that a big fine will invite bigger % of bribery.
But making a Rs.1000 fine, will stop traffic offenders. Less offenders, less catch, less bribery.
Plus, more fine = more bribery, so people will make less offence, even to pay bribery.

Last edited by Soumyajit9 : 26th August 2014 at 07:42. Reason: EDIT
Soumyajit9 is offline   (1) Thanks
Closed Thread


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
List of Traffic offences and applicable fine. Fines set to increase 10-fold moralfibre Street Experiences 78 15th September 2014 17:10
How to avoid Traffic Fines / violations? Anandg Street Experiences 27 13th March 2012 22:28
Traffic Cops fines BMTC Hurrycane12 Commercial Vehicles 33 23rd July 2008 15:18
Traffic Fines naveendhyani Shifting gears 9 7th May 2006 14:52
Malaysia's Online 'Hall of Shame' to catch traffic offenders tabrez02 Shifting gears 1 21st July 2005 11:38


All times are GMT +5.5. The time now is 13:05.

Copyright 2000 - 2017, Team-BHP.com
Proudly powered by E2E Networks