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Old 29th August 2014, 10:41   #76
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Default Re: August 2014 Proposal: Stiffer fines, Penalty points for Traffic Offenders

Law works when it is enforced without any exceptions and leniency. Once 99% are compliant then one can consider some discretion and leniency. There is no case for excluding anyone from strict compliance including revoking of license for repeat offenders. The auto wallah is just as capable of killing or maiming someone as the well heeled motorist. Why should any leniency be shown? Safety is not a concept that we Indians acknowledge is essential for living in a civilized society and the signs are everywhere to be seen. The signs of safety being ignored are everywhere around you but you have to be aware.

A point on which many have touched, is lane driving which will reduce a large proportion of the problem on the road. Also, common sense approach of not having bus stops at all the wrong places; in Delhi buses are allowed to stop anywhere to allow passengers to board and alight; roads are widened but bottlenecks are left untouched so there is hardly any improvement in traffic congestion. Parking is a problem which is not solvable unless public transport is improved substantially and this requires higher ticket prices so it is not heavily subsidized. The list is endless but one has to start somewhere.

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Old 29th August 2014, 11:23   #77
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Default Re: August 2014 Proposal: Stiffer fines, Penalty points for Traffic Offenders

Some more "laws" to improve the state of affairs on the Tarmac. I will believe it when I see at least existing laws being implemented. Heck, what I wouldn't give to see the policemen themselves follow the laws first. Riding two wheelers without a helmet or driving cars without seatbelts, improper parking, obstruction of traffic to "collect fines" etc etc.

Baby steps please -

- enforce lane driving (most critical IMO)
- remove the license touts as of yesterday. Shoot them in the head if you have to
- police empowerment to be able to perform their duties, devoid of the thought "isska baap main hai"

Seeing is believing. Thus far, I do not see and do not believe
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Old 29th August 2014, 14:13   #78
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Default Re: August 2014 Proposal: Stiffer fines, Penalty points for Traffic Offenders

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Originally Posted by braindead View Post
I find this to be a social issue as much as a legal issue.

At the end of the day, nothing is going to change till we start behaving in a civil manner on the roads (or elsewhere). I find most of the road users very selfish. As a society, we have no cohesive identity. Most of us do not consider the convenience and safety of the person next to us on the road, and do not credit him the same right to the road as ourselves.

I am not going to pretend I know the real reason for this or that I may be able to propose an effective solution.

Maybe shaming the petty offenders is the way. The trick is getting the people to start being nice to each other on the road and think as the lawbreakers as "Not one of us".
You are correct. However it is not just in the traffic arena that people are selfish in India. You can see the same in practically any area. From boarding a train to throwing trash on the roads, it is the same mentality. How do you change this? Sure, you can and should have it included in the curriculum in schools, you can and should have advertisements in the media and so on. However nothing works like a stiff fine. I remember having an argument with a policeman in the US many years back when he had my car towed away and fined me some 300 plus $. I asked him why he wouldn't consider issuing me a warning. He responded that fines were the only deterrent in his experience. He was correct as I or anyone else would never dream of committing the same offense again as I knew that it would cost me a lot of money. Hence heavier fines are a very good first step. Even if we get 10% enforcement, the fear of heavy fines would be a deterrent.
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Old 30th August 2014, 01:17   #79
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Default Re: August 2014 Proposal: Stiffer fines, Penalty points for Traffic Offenders

Delhi Traffic Police fine women for not wearing helmets. I hope the same happens across the country.

Source link: http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/c...w/41205752.cms

Quote:
NEW DELHI: Delhi traffic police on Friday started prosecuting woman pillion riders except Sikh woman who were found plying without helmets on the streets of the city.

The crackdown came a day after Delhi government issued a notification making wearing of helmets mandatory for women.

"We have started prosecuting woman riding pillion without helmet in the city. Besides, we will also run awareness program to educate general public about the new rule by giving advertisements in newspapers. I think most people are already aware of the development through media reports," said special commissioner of police (traffic) Muktesh Chander.

Since a notification has been issued in this regard by the Delhi government, the rule has come into effect and prosecution has started, he said.

He also said that Traffic police does not keep a separate record of woman traffic violators.

As per the earlier provision, it was optional for the women pillion rider to wear helmet.

According to transport department, it will be optional for Sikh women whether riding on pillion or driving a two-wheeler to wear helmet. The community had opposed making wearing of helmet by women pillion riders compulsory on religious ground.

"Wearing helmets is now mandatory for women pillion riders in Delhi. However, Sikh women have been kept out of its ambit on religious grounds," a top transport department official had said yesterday.

Delhi government has amended the rule 115 of Delhi Motor Vehicles Rules, 1993 to make the new provisions.

In 1998, the Delhi government had made wearing helmets mandatory for all pillion riders, but following objections from the people belonging to Sikh community, it had to amend the Delhi Motor Vehicle Rules, 1993 in June 1999 and made it optional for women.

According to the transport department, in Delhi alone, a total number of 576 two wheeler riders lost their lives during 2012.

The main risk factor for motorised two wheeler users is the non-use of helmets and head injuries are the major cause of death, injury and disability among them. Many of these head injuries could have been prevented or their severity reduced through the use of helmets.
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Old 30th August 2014, 17:50   #80
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Default Re: August 2014 Proposal: Stiffer fines, Penalty points for Traffic Offenders

Quote:
Originally Posted by braindead View Post
I find this to be a social issue as much as a legal issue.

At the end of the day, nothing is going to change till we start behaving in a civil manner on the roads (or elsewhere). I find most of the road users very selfish. As a society, we have no cohesive identity. Most of us do not consider the convenience and safety of the person next to us on the road, and do not credit him the same right to the road as ourselves
Unfortunately this root cause, it seems, is outside the sphere of influence of folks that are trying to fix the issue being discussed. And I am pretty skeptical of solutions that dont eliminate the root cause. Had we addressed the root cause about a decade ago ( as many 'emerging markets' did) we may have started seeing improvements at this point in time. But it looks like it will take another generation for meaningful change to take root - as a best case scenario.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Lobogris View Post
From boarding a train to throwing trash on the roads, it is the same mentality. How do you change this? Sure, you can and should have it included in the curriculum in schools, you can and should have advertisements in the media and so on. However nothing works like a stiff fine
Itd make little difference if our school curriculum addressed the issue of responsible behaviour while grown ups in general and parents in particular didnt set examples to match. And the disturbing trend I observe, especially in urban India, is parents setting bad examples more often than not.
Being an aggressive driver is often confused with being 'street smart' by grown ups and kids alike. TV adverts and bollywood - take a bow!
In India I am often accused of 'driving too slow', 'not knowing how to drive in India' for not honking, not overtaking unnecessarily and yielding to pedestrians and idiot drivers. And because I refuse to impart wisdom by rolling down my window and explicitly explaining to offending drivers what their mistakes are
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Old 30th August 2014, 18:42   #81
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Default Re: August 2014 Proposal: Stiffer fines, Penalty points for Traffic Offenders

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Originally Posted by Zed View Post
Unfortunately this root cause, it seems, is outside the sphere of influence of folks that are trying to fix the issue being discussed. And I am pretty skeptical of solutions that dont eliminate the root cause. Had we addressed the root cause about a decade ago ( as many 'emerging markets' did) we may have started seeing improvements at this point in time. But it looks like it will take another generation for meaningful change to take root - as a best case scenario.




Itd make little difference if our school curriculum addressed the issue of responsible behaviour while grown ups in general and parents in particular didnt set examples to match. And the disturbing trend I observe, especially in urban India, is parents setting bad examples more often than not.
Being an aggressive driver is often confused with being 'street smart' by grown ups and kids alike. TV adverts and bollywood - take a bow!
In India I am often accused of 'driving too slow', 'not knowing how to drive in India' for not honking, not overtaking unnecessarily and yielding to pedestrians and idiot drivers. And because I refuse to impart wisdom by rolling down my window and explicitly explaining to offending drivers what their mistakes are
I fully agree with you that the parents have a tremendous influence on children's behavior and many parents set a bad example. However, how can we change this? Right now the messages coming from parents, Bollywood, friends and peers are all the same. We can tackle parents/ grown ups by having stiffer fines and public awareness. At the same time, having civic sense/ duties as a part of school and college curriculum is extremely important. That way at least a little seed is planted in people's minds at an early age. Looking at the situation in India today, proper civic sense is as important as having a student being skilled in a technical profession.

By the way, even my wife, who is an American, tells me that I am not honking enough!

Finally, what is the root cause that you stated had to be eliminated?
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Old 31st August 2014, 11:31   #82
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Default Re: August 2014 Proposal: Stiffer fines, Penalty points for Traffic Offenders

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Originally Posted by JoseVijay View Post
Delhi Traffic Police fine women for not wearing helmets. I hope the same happens across the country.
"Delhi traffic police on Friday started prosecuting woman pillion riders except Sikh woman who were found plying without helmets on the streets of the city"

I might be a bit naive here; but how do they propose to identify Sikh women?
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Old 31st August 2014, 12:50   #83
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Default Re: August 2014 Proposal: Stiffer fines, Penalty points for Traffic Offenders

Quote:
Originally Posted by braindead View Post
At the end of the day, nothing is going to change till we start behaving in a civil manner on the roads (or elsewhere). I find most of the road users very selfish. As a society, we have no cohesive identity. Most of us do not consider the convenience and safety of the person next to us on the road, and do not credit him the same right to the road as ourselves.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lobogris View Post
Looking at the situation in India today, proper civic sense is as important as having a student being skilled in a technical profession.

Finally, what is the root cause that you stated had to be eliminated?
My post was triggered by Braindead's. The root cause, to put is simply, is just plain selfishness. We have to rid ourselves of the 'my family and I are all that matters' attitude on the road and off it.

Dont get me wrong - I am in favor of including lessons on civic sense and good driving habits in schools and Uni's. But I doubt how effective these lessons will be when there are role models, within the family and outside of it, that consistently display behaviour to the contrary.

ps - we also honk in Germany but only when our football team wins a match!
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Old 31st August 2014, 14:43   #84
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Default Re: August 2014 Proposal: Stiffer fines, Penalty points for Traffic Offenders

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Don't get me wrong - I am in favor of including lessons on civic sense and good driving habits in schools and Uni's.
These are already there! well not particularly driving. But more fundamental things like maintaining a queue and moral values are properly thought.

Did you know one of the famous Einstein quotes was "Education is what remains after one has forgotten what one has learned in school". Theoretical education gives you a basis of understanding, but practical is what you pick up.

It's not just parents, but the society as such, my parents gave me the best possible values, but I still do not stand in a queue where its disadvantageous.

What is required is enforcement of rules, not additional rules which are even more difficult to apply.

I've been stopped by traffic cops, standing at opportunistic positions for being the last person to cross the signal, while it was green when I entered and yellow when I exited the crossing. 10 mins of argument resulted in me walking away without a fine. With a fine of 5,000 in place there will be more such fraudulent misuses of power. And yes if stick to their fraud, I'd probably be willing to shell out money rather than getting points on my licence for their fraud. For that matter, for driving at 51km/h, I'd rather avoid points on my licence.

If our population is 90% morally screwed the cops are on an average 99% so (i.e. some of them being 150%+ screwed while others being better)
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Old 31st August 2014, 14:59   #85
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Default Re: August 2014 Proposal: Stiffer fines, Penalty points for Traffic Offenders

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Did you know one of the famous Einstein quotes was "Education is what remains after one has forgotten what one has learned in school". Theoretical education gives you a basis of understanding, but practical is what you pick up.

It's not just parents, but the society as such, my parents gave me the best possible values, but I still do not stand in a queue where its disadvantageous.
Thats an interesting quote and one that mirror's a quote attributed to Mark Twain.

'I have never let my schooling interfere with my education' - Grant Allen / Mark twain

I do not mean to go off topic or worse give you the impression that I trying to get into a moral argument - But your post also points in the direction of the topic of 'selfishness' which was what got me into this discussion thread in the first place. Under what circumstance is standing in a queue a disadvantage ( as long as its not a matter of life and death ) ?

And remember one can extend this line of though to traffic signals, pedestrian crossing and so on. The point is - we cannot make judgement calls on rules that are ment to be followed by civil society. Exceptions being emergiencies.

I want to re-emphasis that I am only stating my point of view and do not mean to offend you or anyone else in this discussion
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Old 31st August 2014, 16:03   #86
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Default Re: August 2014 Proposal: Stiffer fines, Penalty points for Traffic Offenders

I suggest that in the case of Govt owned vehicles, if any traffic offense is done, it should be double / three times of the proposed penalty. The same should be recovered from the person/official allotted the vehicle. The exception being life and death situation or medical emergency.
The police officer registering the above offense would get incentives in the form of Bonus along with citation for what reason he is getting the bonus.
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Old 31st August 2014, 21:44   #87
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Default Re: August 2014 Proposal: Stiffer fines, Penalty points for Traffic Offenders

I don't see what the debate is about.

Of course it would be best if people had better education, morals and so on and didn't commit offenses but no nation has been able to achieve that. Whatever the state of our society, corruption and what not, we have laws and fines in place for violations. That is the existing system and is followed world over. So why are we debating whether there should be fines or not? The only thing to consider is how much the fine should be. It is logical that the fine should be commiserate with the purchasing power of the nation and should be enough to be a strong deterrent. Who can argue that Rs100 is not a small amount now-a-days for a motorist? These fines were fixed a long time ago and need to be updated to reflect an amount that would be a deterrent in modern times. That is all. Why go in to debates about other issues? Even in most law abiding nations like Germany or Sweden, there are stiff fines for traffic violations. The stronger the fine, the higher its deterrent value regardless of whether it is in Germany or India.
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Old 1st September 2014, 15:38   #88
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Default Re: August 2014 Proposal: Stiffer fines, Penalty points for Traffic Offenders

Squads to monitor Policemen will not be a solution because of the last reason given by you "higher the penalty higher will be the bribe".
Using a camera to book the offence will be a good Start. Recently Mumbai Police started such drive on Palm Beach Road. Govt has to work extensively on Installing Speed Cameras and camera to monitor traffic/ roads. To start with they can target Metro Cities and slowly all B and C grade cities of the country.
The Govt should take all the required measures to insure Traffic Discipline. Indeed a good thought.


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Originally Posted by gsurya View Post
Unless the Govt first gives every traffic policeman the authority to fine on-the-spot & issue a receipt, all these measures are useless.

Plus there need to be squads who check the traffic policemen regularly to see if they are taking bribes.

Else, most people try to avoid having to go to court by bribing the traffic policeman who are only too keen to take it too.

Without basic execution reform, this will only serve to increase the size of the bribe being given/taken.
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Old 1st September 2014, 23:32   #89
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Default Re: August 2014 Proposal: Stiffer fines, Penalty points for Traffic Offenders

Not sure, but looks like this law enforcement is targeting metros. Imagine paying 2500/- for not wearing helmet in tier 2,tier 3 cities where sources of earning are not big.
Taking example of Bangalore where people drive on footpaths, jump signals, honk impatiently,unruly rash driving ,high density of vehicle flow every hour its very difficult to enforce such expensive laws....Its understandable people will mellow down to some extent but as an Bangalorian i think most road law violation happens due to sheer frustration due to heavy traffic. Welcome move by Govt. but I still believe discipline is self driven be it road,office or elsewhere.
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Old 2nd September 2014, 09:07   #90
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Default Re: August 2014 Proposal: Stiffer fines, Penalty points for Traffic Offenders

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Originally Posted by ashokabs View Post
Law works when it is enforced without any exceptions and leniency.
Exceptions I agree, but leniency - not too sure. The way the world works is that the law specifies minimum and maximum punishments for offenses, and it is up to the judge to decide what level of punishment to apply. In this, the judge usually relies on arguments of compassion (for and against) offered by the lawyers.
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