Go Back   Team-BHP > Buckle Up > Street Experiences


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 10th September 2014, 01:13   #1
Senior - BHPian
 
Jignesh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Eindhoven, NL
Posts: 1,603
Thanked: 933 Times
Default Finland: Traffic Fines based on Income

Hello All,

Yesterday, one of my colleagues from Finland told me that on Saturday he had to pay a fine of 600 Euros for jumping a red signal in Helsinki!!!

What would be your reaction? Obviously utter disbelief.

Let me repeat - Fine of 600 Euros for jumping one Red Signal. Talking in terms of Indian Rupee, it amounts to a fine of Rs. 48,000 for jumping one red light.

I asked him is this the fixed fine (600 Euros) for such offences? And he said No. What is used in Finland is - Sliding-Scale Financial Penalties for calculating the fine amount is severity of offense and driver's Income.

I was still not convinced and searched for some information on internet. And indeed what he said was true.

Sometime in 2001, Mr. Jaako Rytsola, had to pay a fine equivalent to 71,400 USD for driving his car at 43 miles per hour in a 25 miles per hour zone.
Source: http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/...98058976592586
The above article published in The Wall Street Journal is worth reading.

It has been a Nordic tradition to have progressive taxation and progressive punishments. Which means, the more you earn, the more you pay as punishment.

Another case: Mr. Anssi Vanjoki received a speeding ticket for driving 46.5 miles per hour in a 30 miles per hour zone and he had to pay 1,16,000 Euros.
Source: http://robertkaplinsky.com/work/finl...eeding-ticket/

The below article on World's Highest Speeding Fines is an interesting read:
http://autos.aol.com/article/highest-speeding-fines/

All this made me think, can such fines be imposed on Indian Roads too? Will regulations like these force errant drivers in India to drive safe?

Can we avoid the accidents like the recent one in Delhi where a University topper and State Level athlete was killed in a road accident - http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/c...w/41640131.cms.

Can we make Indian roads a safer place by imposing such steep traffic offense fines? I understand that there can be no single correct solution for making Indian roads safe, but something will have to be done to erase India's name as accident capital of world (source: http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/i...ow/4900415.cms).

Let us hope that the authorities initiate some steps. Probably the idea of abolishing RTO's is a step in this direction.

Thanks,

Last edited by Jignesh : 10th September 2014 at 01:35. Reason: Information added
Jignesh is offline   (18) Thanks Reply With Quote
Old 10th September 2014, 02:11   #2
Distinguished - BHPian
 
amitoj's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Nashua, NH
Posts: 2,947
Thanked: 1,584 Times
Default re: Finland: Traffic Fines based on Income

Wow. I didn't know this!

But this will work where everyone is honest about declaring their income. Or at least declares their income!! In India, we first have to get to that level by encouraging people to declare their income and file taxes. Such a move will only drive people further away from declaring their income!
amitoj is offline   (7) Thanks Reply With Quote
Old 10th September 2014, 05:25   #3
BHPian
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Hyderabad
Posts: 959
Thanked: 428 Times
Default re: Finland: Traffic Fines based on Income

I don't think the above rule will ever work in our country. When caught, even an IT professional or who work for top MNCs(like me), will claim that he is a mechanic, or unemployed going for an interview and does not have any source of income.
JoseVijay is offline   (1) Thanks Reply With Quote
Old 10th September 2014, 07:34   #4
Distinguished - BHPian
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Hyderabad
Posts: 9,178
Thanked: 12,726 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JoseVijay View Post
I don't think the above rule will ever work in our country. When caught, even an IT professional or who work for top MNCs (like me), will claim that he is a mechanic, or unemployed going for an interview and does not have any source of income.
Unemployed and Mechanic riding a CBR 250R?!

I agree with what Amitoj has said, till things are transparent no such rule can work out as all would showing low salary to escape. If there one rule applied there will be 10 loop holes to avoid.

Anurag.
a4anurag is offline   (1) Thanks Reply With Quote
Old 10th September 2014, 07:42   #5
Distinguished - BHPian
 
CrAzY dRiVeR's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Bangalore / TVM
Posts: 8,417
Thanked: 14,195 Times
Default re: Finland: Traffic Fines based on Income

Quote:
Originally Posted by JoseVijay View Post
I don't think the above rule will ever work in our country.
+ 1.

Being a family of salaried middle class, my parents had to pay for my college education. While my friend paid only very nominal fees thanks to him being a minority + having no family income. He came to college in a Pajero!

Such a system wont work in India and only the salaried class will be milked yet again.
CrAzY dRiVeR is offline   (11) Thanks Reply With Quote
Old 10th September 2014, 08:28   #6
Senior - BHPian
 
msdivy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Bangalore
Posts: 1,426
Thanked: 770 Times
Default re: Finland: Traffic Fines based on Income

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jignesh View Post
Can we make Indian roads a safer place by imposing such steep traffic offense fines?
Yes, it is possible, when everybody has PAN card and police checks PAN number along with DL. With PAN it is simple to get income/earnings.

Right now, in CBD, parking fine is cheaper than parking fee. It will definitely deter folks from breaking rules - who would want to pay a fine of Rs 10,000 for parking?

But will folks like it or want it? No, who would want to Rs pay 10,000 when you can get away with paying Rs 100? These are the folks who make the rules.

Though it is technically possible, it won't happen for many more years.

Quote:
Originally Posted by a4anurag View Post
Unemployed and Mechanic riding a CBR 250R?!
Quote:
Originally Posted by CrAzY dRiVeR View Post
While my friend paid only very nominal fees thanks to him being a minority + having no family income. He came to college in a Pajero!
These are exceptions or aberrations. Probably happens one in a million. Lets not get into that.

Last edited by msdivy : 10th September 2014 at 08:42.
msdivy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10th September 2014, 08:54   #7
Senior - BHPian
 
rohanjf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Adelaide
Posts: 1,190
Thanked: 683 Times
Default re: Finland: Traffic Fines based on Income

First of all, in countries where traffic violation fines are based on income, the fines are imposed by the courts. Money cannot be collected by police on the road where the violation occurs.

The problems in India will be:
- If the court takes the PAN number of the offender to track the income, the bigger question arises: how truthful is the Form 2D of the previous financial year? For salaried people, it will be accurate. I am pretty sure that most businessmen find some ways or other to show lesser income than there is. And what if an offender doesn't have a PAN number, despite having an income (say, a tea shop outside SEZ, which gives him better income than most people who drink his tea).
- How long will court take to impose the fine? How many trips will the offender have to make to the court?
- What if some policemen make "out of court" settlements with the offenders?
rohanjf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10th September 2014, 08:56   #8
Team-BHP Support
 
noopster's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Pune
Posts: 8,625
Thanked: 9,096 Times
Default re: Finland: Traffic Fines based on Income

It's important to understand the spirit behind such legislation.

Fines for traffic offenses must be high enough to act as a deterrent, no doubt about that. Is the INR 100/- that we are typically challaned for running a light here anything *close* to a deterrent? No. Anyone can afford it, even the 'poor mechanic' in your example. So the need of the hour is to increase the fine amount to something that is actually a real deterrent. Say 1000/- (which would pinch anyone).

Now take it to the next step. Say your society is reasonably well-off so that even the 1000/- isn't pinching some people as it should. Say you notice that normal people are by and large deterred by the size of the fine hence behaving but the super-rich for whom 1000/- is a drop in the bucket, aren't. So what do you do?

One way to do it is to compound offences. Meaning repeat offences attract higher fines, even punishment, even if the offence in itself is minor. I think this is a system that works (e.g. in the USA) and is very suitable for India.

The Nordics seem to be going another route: meaning fining people based on their ability to pay (first-degree price discrimination if I remember my micro-economics). This has one advantage over compounding: it nips errant behavior in the bud, at the first instance, so the odds of repeat offending are virtually nil. But it also goes against the concept of fairness and equality in the eyes of the law (in my opinion).

There is also a practical problem if you implement this is India. As usual, the salaried class who pay taxes will be targeted. Businessmen and politicians who operate in cash so as to stay off the taxman's radar will be spared. So it will end up not penalizing those who are the richest.

Last edited by noopster : 10th September 2014 at 08:59. Reason: Corrected to first degree price discrimination
noopster is offline   (10) Thanks Reply With Quote
Old 10th September 2014, 09:03   #9
Distinguished - BHPian
 
sudev's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Gurgaon
Posts: 3,435
Thanked: 1,914 Times
Default re: Finland: Traffic Fines based on Income

IMHO

Makes no sense to impose higher fines based on income and not severity of offense.

In a 30 speed zone fine at 40 and fine at 80 should be on sliding scale.

The fines have to keep economic realities in mind. Something entered in to MV Act few decades back should be revised may be with an inflation or DA index.
sudev is offline   (1) Thanks Reply With Quote
Old 10th September 2014, 12:25   #10
Senior - BHPian
 
Jignesh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Eindhoven, NL
Posts: 1,603
Thanked: 933 Times
Default re: Finland: Traffic Fines based on Income

Hello All,

Thank you.

It is interesting to read all the responses above.

As expected the first reaction is that such a system will practically not be possible to implement in India.
That is true, we cannot just blindly copy the system followed by country whose entire population is less than half of total number of people living in Mumbai or Delhi.

But we will have to start somewhere. We all know how deadly (in terms of accidental deaths) Indian roads are as compared to global standards.

Since last eight months I am working in Germany and I am indeed surprised by traffic manners here. There has not been even a single time when I have seen a car speeding while approaching zebra crossings. I have witnessed public transport buses full of passengers calmly waiting at zebra crossing for one single person to cross to road. I still stop on the road whenever I hear ambulance siren, because for me it is really humbling to see all the vehicles on the road stop and make way for emergency vehicle to pass.

What if minimum traffic offense fine in India to set to Rs. 10,000. You jump a red light and you have to pay Rs. 10,000 if caught. I understand people will argue that this will increase corruption, but if one knows that Traffic constable will only settle anywhere between Rs. 2,000 to Rs. 5,000 for what is considered minor traffic offense, people will surely think before jumping red lights.

All I want to say is somewhere / somehow we will have to find a way to bring errant drivers on Indian roads to book and at the same time deter new drivers from committing what is considered petty traffic offenses.

Thanks,
Jignesh is offline   (2) Thanks Reply With Quote
Old 10th September 2014, 13:47   #11
Senior - BHPian
 
DieselFan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Bangalore
Posts: 1,569
Thanked: 230 Times
Default re: Finland: Traffic Fines based on Income

In India we should have fines based on the ex factory cost of the car. More expensive the car or the bike more you pay as the fine. Same as the way taxes/excise is charged on the vehicles. This can apply for personal vehicles but for commercial we have fines based on load or the passenger carrying capacity of the vehicle. Larger the load/passenger carrying capacity - higher the fine.
DieselFan is offline   (5) Thanks Reply With Quote
Old 10th September 2014, 14:56   #12
Distinguished - BHPian
 
sudev's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Gurgaon
Posts: 3,435
Thanked: 1,914 Times
Default re: Finland: Traffic Fines based on Income

Witnessed today at a main cross road with cops in attendance. Three guys on bike jumping red light. Denting one Swift. Almost coming under a BMW. Gesticulating wildly, glaring at other driver and hooting. Cops with latest online "challan" machines just ignoring this while flagging down a car guy for using mobile.

So you want to fine based on cost of vehicle? or income?
sudev is offline   (3) Thanks Reply With Quote
Old 10th September 2014, 15:59   #13
BHPian
 
pratyush6's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: RNC - BLR
Posts: 470
Thanked: 497 Times
Default re: Finland: Traffic Fines based on Income

Quote:
Originally Posted by noopster View Post
It's important to understand the spirit behind such legislation.

The Nordics seem to be going another route: meaning fining people based on their ability to pay (first-degree price discrimination if I remember my micro-economics).
Yes, you remember correctly

And completely agree with what you said.

I do not agree with fines based on Incomes - simply because it will be a Herculean task to implement even in the coming 10 years.

What we can do however is to simplify the notion to fining based on the vehicle you are driving/riding - That should be easier. And, then make it progressively difficult for each repeat offenses. The fines keep going up with each offense, attach it to the insurance premium one pays for his car/bike as well.

The million dollar question is - are we willing to do what is required? I do not think it takes a rocket scientist (and we have quite a few of those in our country too) to figure out what needs to be done, it's just the willingness to reform the system.

Last edited by pratyush6 : 10th September 2014 at 16:00.
pratyush6 is offline   (1) Thanks Reply With Quote
Old 10th September 2014, 22:55   #14
BHPian
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: mumbai
Posts: 450
Thanked: 181 Times
Default re: Finland: Traffic Fines based on Income

Hi everybody
Last year in one of the threads on this forum I posted about a Swiss female overspeeding in Sweden ?? was fined more than a lakh of rupees. It depended on her abilitto pay. This bit of news was in the Times of India.
In quite some posts on TBHP I have said that the law of torts should be revised a lot. I asked a rhetoric question that if the fine was rs 5000 would you break a red signal? If it is that much then a corrupt policeman will not let you go with rs 100. Minimum he would take 50%.
A few days back on FB I posted about the need to revise our fines but your IT return should not be the criteria in deciding.
Incidentally only the salaried class pays full taxes and relief to them is long overdue. Specially where the exemption limits are concerned. Rs 100 a month exemption, fixed in 1998 or thereabouts for a child's education and rs 800 PM for conveyance. Laughable.
Regards
PS : Crazydriver. Hi. Makes you question the very foundation of natural justice. Sad state of affairs.

Last edited by faustus77 : 10th September 2014 at 22:57.
faustus77 is offline   (1) Thanks Reply With Quote
Old 10th September 2014, 23:09   #15
Distinguished - BHPian
 
phamilyman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Gurgaon
Posts: 5,581
Thanked: 3,242 Times
Default re: Finland: Traffic Fines based on Income

This is a simply hare brained idea. What India needs is far stricter implementation.

In chennai I have thrice paid 100 rs challans for very minor offences - the strict implementation together with the hassle has made me an ever more careful driver. They over-police the cars and keep them in check. That they don't discipline bikers (most of the time) and MTC buses (never) is a separate sore point. But the overall policing keeps the scene far saner than say a Delhi (which is hopeless).
phamilyman is offline   (3) Thanks Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
List of Traffic offences and applicable fine. Fines set to increase 10-fold moralfibre Street Experiences 78 15th September 2014 17:10
Sensor based traffic signals (based on induction-loops) in India? vharihar Street Experiences 8 13th February 2014 21:46
How to avoid Traffic Fines / violations? Anandg Street Experiences 27 13th March 2012 22:28
Traffic Cops fines BMTC Hurrycane12 Commercial Vehicles 33 23rd July 2008 15:18
Traffic Fines naveendhyani Shifting gears 9 7th May 2006 14:52


All times are GMT +5.5. The time now is 03:48.

Copyright 2000 - 2017, Team-BHP.com
Proudly powered by E2E Networks