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Old 11th December 2014, 15:36   #61
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Default Re: Driving Licence confiscated for violating 'No Parking' zone

Completely agree that an offence is an offence - but the real question is the intensity of the punishment, which sounds very harsh to my mind. And to the comment from Beantownthinker of 11K people having seen this thread- I being one of them, promptly called up my wife and let her know to be very careful where she parks and to be extra careful on other rules - ofcourse, she is a very sedate and safe driver, but has had a couple tickets herself , once for taking a U where she isnt supposed to and second for parking in a place ( incidentally, at Jayanagar 4th Block) where she ought not to park, and all due to the fact that the work she intends to do isn't taking anything beyond 2 minutes and therefore, its ok kind of attitude.

And having gone thru all the comments thus far - what I feel is that we being humans, "we all need justice when wronged and empathy when found doing wrong".
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Old 11th December 2014, 15:40   #62
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Default Re: Driving Licence confiscated for violating 'No Parking' zone

It is unfortunate that Guna has to undergo the mental stress due to his mistake. But his ordeal highlights one thing which is missing specially in our country - Complete and Correct information in our dealing with government and the law.
What Guna is wondering is whether the punishment is equal to the crime and where he can find that out. Does BTP have a call center where he can call and register a complaint or clear his doubts apart from FB page? Is he given the names and numbers of the law enforcement authorities who have taken away his DL? Does the ticket say that if the person is not satisfied with the ticket where and whom he/she should approach for redressal?
I think if that is done, lot of doubts will get settled and people will not face uncertainty and mental hardship.
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Old 11th December 2014, 15:45   #63
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Default Re: Driving Licence confiscated for violating 'No Parking' zone

How many cases have we seen where we have been obstructed by people parking haphazardly or in no parking zones which have caused inconvenience for us while driving or otherwise. No parking zones are there for a reason and when citizens do not care about the law do the caretakers need a way to enforce the law? I have seen people care two hoots about the law, parking in no parking zone for their convenience, stunts in two wheelers by driving in one ways, no lane discipline and so on. At the end of the day the objective is to benefit us the citizen by enforcing these laws. Why cannot we think that there are some officials who wants to make a change and would have recommended this cancellation. I agree the cancellation is a bit too harsh. Suggestion is to talk to the concerned inspector and make him understand that you have realized your mistake and assure him that this will not happen again. In most of the cases this works and the concerned inspector will lecture on following laws that are meant for us, for our benefit and get the licence released.
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Old 11th December 2014, 16:11   #64
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Default Re: Driving Licence confiscated for violating 'No Parking' zone

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Originally Posted by Lobogris View Post
So we should not obey the laws? It is not an offence to go shopping; all you have to do is park in a proper place and pay the fee even if it means walking a little.
We need to obey the laws, no question of that.

We need to register our concerns and reservations against the law makers / enforcers. In a country where talking to them is a pain and intimidating, I don't see how this is possible.

In this case parking a car at road side is NOT correct, but we don't have enough parking in general. Road side parking especially in side lanes was a welcome respite especially where infrastructure is not present, though it is against the letter of the law which is again subject to interpretation by our brilliant Govt employees..

I would like to know what the govt. has done to improve parking scenario in the city. It is unfair to be always strict on the citizen for making things better.
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Old 11th December 2014, 16:19   #65
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Default Re: Driving Licence confiscated for violating 'No Parking' zone

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Originally Posted by Samurai View Post
You are confusing between Karnataka RTO and BTP. The road tax extortion is conducted by Karnataka RTO, not BTP. Not only this is offtopic, you are barking up the wrong tree.
Hey Samurai San, I know they are different. I was just mentioning two state institutions related to motor vehicles implementing pathetic rules out of the blue.

Quote:
Originally Posted by shoaib3030 View Post

And as for the gentleman in the previous posts comparing our policemen as Taliban and this is just a money making gimmick ? That's not so pleasing to hear. Even though it doesn't seem like it but these guys work hard at their jobs and it really takes your stress to a whole new level.

At the end of the day, obey the law.
That gentleman would be me and I stand by it. They work hard no doubt, they go through a lot of stress agreed, but 'WE' go through a lot of stress because of them too. How can someone threaten you to cancel your licence for a non moving offence ? What do you call this ?

If my kid fails in a subject during exam, I make him work harder or remove him from school for X duration of time ?

I stand my money making gimmick statement too. Cops will make money out of this, by bribe or by adding false charges. To support my statement 'Lane Discipline' was listed as one of the offence. How is that ? Mumbai Traffic Police used to do this earlier too, add dangerous driving offence to whatever receipt they made.

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Originally Posted by ant_vas View Post
Its surprising to see people who are not staying in bangalore commenting about the BTP and comparing them to outfits like taliban.

My dear sir, please come and stay in bangalore and experience the traffic indiscipline your self. You will realize that with inadequate infrastructure and limited manpower the bangalore traffic police force is indeed doing a better job. Almost all traffic offenses are recorded in the blackberry and receipt will be issued on the spot. They even send notices to your home thru post which you can clear at a bangalore one center/website as well.

Coming to this case of guna, the parking offense is a second one as per him, he also had another offense of changing lanes or something like that. I hope he gets the DL back and this incident will be a deterrent not just for him but for others including me!

And if my memory serves me correctly back in 2004 or 2005 i was caught by a traffic constable and inspector duo twice for coming in opposite direction of traffic. This was at Udupi garden signal and i was coming to the junction from 16th main side. Back then the road divider was small and a lot of bikers would take the right lane when the signal turned green. For my luck twice as i reached the junction, the light would turn red and i would have to stop as traffic from other lane would start moving. i paid 100 for first time and 300 for the second time. and was told by the inspector that 3rd strike and my license would be sent for cancellation. as i have the license issued from madhya pradesh, i up on asking about that he said we will send it to MP RTO for cancellation! So if the rule existed back then, am not surprised that they want to use it more stringently these days.

More recently the BTP have got the rules tweaked with such stricter measures to deter the aam junta from violating the traffic rules. Why even BTP folks have gone in plain cloths and had hundreds of autorickshaw's taken to task. They were fined and ceased from morning 6 to night 10, Not once but twice. If the BTP were really interested in filling their own pockets i don't think such drives would take place.
I have stayed in Bangalore for 3 years, keep visiting it every month and can speak fluent Kannada as much as a local can. Bangalore is not in Siberia you know, anyone from Mumbai can just hop skip and jump to Bangalore.

Secondly, about good 'intention' of BTP. Good intentions come with spreading the word about new rule through every media possible, give people time to change and then start fining them. Making examples of people is what dictators do, not well wishers. A simple google search does not show these new rules too. I still stand by my point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Samurai View Post
We are not disputing the violation. We are disputing the punishment.

I believe that punishment should match the crime. There are countries where mere blasphemy attracts death sentence. We are not one of those countries, and shouldn't even start going in that direction.

It is beyond dispute that a moving violation is more serious than non-moving violation. If DL is cancelled for a non-moving violation, what are they going to do for moving violation?

Put yourself in the shoes of the violator. Say you were caught doing 51kmph in 50kmph zone. Should they merely cancel your DL, or impound the car along with cancellation of DL?

+ 100 to this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BeantownThinker View Post
I am of the belief that from time to time examples need to be made in order to deter people from violating the rules.

Many here are of the opinion that the punishment does not fit the crime for a first time offence. How many of us can honestly say, hand on heart, that this was the first offence? This was probably the first offence of the person for which he was caught! What of all the times when rules were violated and the offender was not caught? Why is there no outrage from the offender for that?

BTP knows that it is pain to get anything done at the RTO offices most of the times and making you undergo that pain for a violation is their idea of punishing the offenders.

Some have called this action draconian. All I can say is that making you spend time and money is not draconian. Being locked up overnight at the station IS draconian, which the cops have NOT done.

Over 11,000 people have viewed this thread and I am sure many would think twice before parking in a "No Parking" zone.

Kudos to BTP for having taken this step.
Mental torture is not draconian , but being locked up overnight in a jail is draconian? We are not thugs you know.

About making examples, You are just saying it because 'you were not that example'.

Lastly, Mumbai has one of the most well mannered traffic in the country, do we have such rules ?

Lastly, as we are being this strict with the drivers, are we being this strict with the bribe takers too?

Last edited by humyum : 11th December 2014 at 16:49.
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Old 11th December 2014, 16:32   #66
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Default Re: Driving Licence confiscated for violating 'No Parking' zone

Quote:
Originally Posted by Samurai View Post
We are not disputing the violation. We are disputing the punishment.

I believe that punishment should match the crime. There are countries where mere blasphemy attracts death sentence. We are not one of those countries, and shouldn't even start going in that direction.
We have long tried this punishment should befit the crime philosophy. And look where we have landed. Since the punishment is not harsh enough, the OP here and all of us have started intentionally breaking the rules. Don't we know that it is a no parking zone when we are parking. Or that it is a No U turn junction while taking a U turn and etc etc. Then why do we still do it? The reason is simple. The punishment for the same is no longer a hindrance to us. As many have stated that parking in a mall sometimes works out to be costlier than a no parking fine. Hence punishments like these will ensure that the offender will think twice before breaking a law next time.


Quote:
Put yourself in the shoes of the violator. Say you were caught doing 51kmph in 50kmph zone. Should they merely cancel your DL, or impound the car along with cancellation of DL?
You had mentioned something similar in another thread too. Please tell me as to what is the acceptable speed limit after which you will be willing to accept guilt? I have never understood this argument. There will always be an arbitrary cut off value after which you will be on the wrong side of law. You might argue that leave some room for equipment error. Well but that factor is not in our hands. Say they start allowing you a 10% reprieve over and above the legal speed limit. So now you will be left alone even if you are doing 55 in a 50 kmph zone. The very next person caught at 56 kmph will again say the same thing that the equipment error is there and how can they fine me for doing 56 kmph while the person driving next to me was let go for doing 55 kmph. Was doing that extra 1 kmph a crime or rash driving? Whereas let him get the license confiscated and waste a good amount of time procuring it back and I am sure next time he will stick to 40 kmph in that zone.

I understand the OPs frustration. Even I would be feeling the same if I were in his shoes. But I still feel this step is in the right direction provided it is being followed as a policy of BTP and not merely depends on the mood/ego of the cop.

Lastly I am myself guilty of doing all the above. And the reason is the same that there is the thought that I can handle the cop or I wont be caught since it is only for few minutes or the 100 Rs fine is not too big a deal. So please don't think that I am just being a armchair critic here. Harsher punishments are the way to enforce the laws. No two ways about it.
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Old 11th December 2014, 16:47   #67
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Default Re: Driving Licence confiscated for violating 'No Parking' zone

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Originally Posted by drmohitg View Post
We have long tried this punishment should befit the crime philosophy. And look where we have landed. Since the punishment is not harsh enough, the OP here and all of us have started intentionally breaking the rules. Don't we know that it is a no parking zone when we are parking. Or that it is a No U turn junction while taking a U turn and etc etc. Then why do we still do it? The reason is simple. The punishment for the same is no longer a hindrance to us. As many have stated that parking in a mall sometimes works out to be costlier than a no parking fine. Hence punishments like these will ensure that the offender will think twice before breaking a law next time.
In a democratic republic like India, the govt has 3 pillars
Legistlature
Executive
Judiciary

Harsh punishment. Well let there be harsh punishment. If you get harsher punishment for offence 1, and light punishment for offence 2, where offence 2 is more serious than "1", it breaks the system.

Sure, lets order impounding vehicle for parking violation. but it has to be a law, not the whim of an inspector who is not authorized to make a law.

However, we love to cheer when executive makes laws. This is very wrong. Only the legistlature can make laws, not the executive. This is the constitution of India. however, this has been violated so many times by overzealous executive, that we find this acceptable, believing that somehow this will cure our ills.

This will not change anything.
Change has to come in the law itself. The law should make parking fine 1000rs or 10,000rs or 100,000,000,000rs
The policeman cannot say. No parking fine is 100rs, dangerous driving fine is 5000, I will fine you 5100.

Allowing executive to make laws on whim and fancy has no place in a democracy. There are very nice countries where police make laws on the fly, but we are not one of them,
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Old 11th December 2014, 16:52   #68
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Default Re: Driving Licence confiscated for violating 'No Parking' zone

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Originally Posted by tsk1979 View Post
However, we love to cheer when executive makes laws. This is very wrong. Only the legistlature can make laws, not the executive. This is the constitution of India. however, this has been violated so many times by overzealous executive, that we find this acceptable, believing that somehow this will cure our ills.

Allowing executive to make laws on whim and fancy has no place in a democracy. There are very nice countries where police make laws on the fly, but we are not one of them,
+1. I guess the law does allow them to do this as posted by SS-Traveller a few pages back citing the Motor vehicle act.

I have to confess I am not well versed with it myself. I can hence not agree or disagree with you here. But for me the gist of this thread i not about whether the cops actions were legal or not. But whether the punishment i.e. confiscating the DL in this case the appropriate punishment for the offence. And hence my views on the same that such harsh punishments are probably the only way of ensuring laws. The current punishment is surely not harsh enough to prove as a deterrent.

Last edited by drmohitg : 11th December 2014 at 17:06.
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Old 11th December 2014, 16:58   #69
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Default Re: Driving Licence confiscated for violating 'No Parking' zone

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Originally Posted by humyum View Post
...About making examples, You are just saying it because 'you were not that example'. ...
I said what I said because of the "mental agony and torture" I undergo day in and day out on the roads of Bangalore where cars upon cars are parked in no parking areas on main roads thereby reducing the space available for others cars to drive on.

One just needs to go through the thread http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/street...ation-490.html (Rants on Bangalore's traffic situation) and you will find enough and more examples of the kind of inconveniences such offences cause.
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Old 11th December 2014, 17:00   #70
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Default Re: Driving Licence confiscated for violating 'No Parking' zone

Consistency, not degree of harshness, is the keyword here. We cannot have officers in the field making up rules as they see fit, even if we think it's beneficial in a particular situation. If the law needs to be 'license cancellation for every traffic offence irrespective of magnitude of offence', so be it but it needs to be a formal regulation uniformly applicable everywhere, NOT one officer playing traffic vigilante on his whim.
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Old 11th December 2014, 17:52   #71
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Default Re: Driving Licence confiscated for violating 'No Parking' zone

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Originally Posted by drmohitg View Post
Don't we know that it is a no parking zone when we are parking. Or that it is a No U turn junction while taking a U turn and etc etc. Then why do we still do it?
Please tell me as to what is the acceptable speed limit after which you will be willing to accept guilt?
I call it moving the goalposts when
  • there is no *No U-Turn* board at a crossing, yet a cop says it is an illegal U-turn;
  • someone stops in a *no parking* zone and is charged with abandoning his car;
  • the notified speed limit is 60 kmph but a cop says it's 50. The concept of dynamic speed limits does not exist in this country as far as I know.
Hence I am inclined to agree with Samurai & tsk1979's opinions.

Last edited by SS-Traveller : 11th December 2014 at 17:53.
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Old 11th December 2014, 18:42   #72
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Default Re: Driving Licence confiscated for violating 'No Parking' zone

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Originally Posted by SS-Traveller View Post
I call it moving the goalposts when
  • there is no *No U-Turn* board at a crossing, yet a cop says it is an illegal U-turn;
  • someone stops in a *no parking* zone and is charged with abandoning his car;
  • the notified speed limit is 60 kmph but a cop says it's 50. The concept of dynamic speed limits does not exist in this country as far as I know.
Hence I am inclined to agree with Samurai & tsk1979's opinions.
Sir ji with all due respect for each time a cop charges you for a illegal u turn when there is no board, I feel there are 10 other people taking a u turn where there is actually a board saying that. Same goes for cases of over speeding and all other regular traffic violations that we see on our roads. Please lets admit that whatever be the state of enforcement, we as citizens of this country do not really follow traffic rules the way they should be followed ( again I am talking about the majority people here).

My basic point is simple. Any rule is only followed when there is fear of punishment. Sorry for digressing but the same even applies for heinous crimes like Rape etc. The current punishment for these so called minor offences is so less or inadequate that we don't mind breaking them. And I feel that once you start leaving the impression that rules are not meant for you, then it gradually seeps into all spheres of life. The next time we start over speeding. Then something else and then something else. Yes the Police are not innocent. But then there is always a start from some point.

Last edited by drmohitg : 11th December 2014 at 18:47.
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Old 11th December 2014, 19:50   #73
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Default Re: Driving Licence confiscated for violating 'No Parking' zone

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Originally Posted by sgiitk View Post
@guna; Did you get it back? It is crazy the way our schweinen operate some times.
No I am out of station. Cops asked me to drop in to the RTO after 10-15 days. May be that is the time required to dispatch the DL to RTO. Meantime I have asked a an agent to find out about the process.
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Originally Posted by naikameya View Post
Excuse me if I do not get this. But I am unable to fathom how can some one not follow lane discipline and abandon a vehicle at the same time.

If I understand it correctly this itself should suffice you to argue that the police officer was unjust and was trying to harass you.

But I am not sure if logic & common sense prevail within such dept.

awaiting your updates.
I think either the cop made a mistake or they wanted to fine me 200, so they had to add another 'violation' to the list

Quote:
Originally Posted by ant_vas View Post

Coming to this case of guna, the parking offense is a second one as per him, he also had another offense of changing lanes or something like that. I hope he gets the DL back and this incident will be a deterrent not just for him but for others including me!
I think I did not put it properly. Violation is only the 'illegal parking' but in the slip they have mentioned about lane discipline which I have not been caught violating.

Quote:
Originally Posted by veyron_head View Post

But on another note, weekday or weekend, day or night, i always park the car in the paid parking in Jayanagar, above the RTO/bus stand. Gives you peace of the mind. My wife always asks me why I pay for parking when so many park on the road. Need to show her this thread now!
Which is what I do too if I go near the 4th block, or anywhere there is a legal parking close-by.
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Old 11th December 2014, 19:52   #74
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Default Re: Driving Licence confiscated for violating 'No Parking' zone

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Originally Posted by sdp1975 View Post
Sorry to hear of the incident. I was not aware till today of the new rule.

The fact is that the government hasn't been able to handle the infrastructural mess in Bangalore and the lack of parking facilities - they then come up with these ridiculous rules. A few months ago the cops were cancelling licenses when folks were talking on mobile . I can still accept that - but cancelling DLs for parking in a no parking zone the first time is ridiculous.

I would ask bhp-ians who're against this rule to post on the BTP website and also tweet to the city Police Commisioner.
No... Completely disagree. Parking in NP zone results in others getting forced to use "detours" and probable cause of accident.
I can understand "not having PUC" as a lesser offence.
But anything which obstructs the flow and is actively harmful (talking on phone while driving) or passively (parking in NP)... Sorry, doesnt cut the ice with this argument.
Of course, 1st timers should be given strict warning. And repeated offenders should get DL cancelled + heavy fine. I agree on that part.
But completely disagree on the basis of your argument.
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Old 11th December 2014, 20:08   #75
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Default Re: Driving Licence confiscated for violating 'No Parking' zone

My 2 cents:

I have never been to Bangalore and I don't have any idea of the kind of road infrastructure out there. Anyway I'm always against any offense and violation of law. The OP had parked his car in a no parking zone and that may or may not caused trouble to others. I'm not going into the argument whether his DL should be cancelled or not. Although in my opinion this is a bit harsh compared to the offense, RTO can take these drastic steps to bring the number of law breakers down provided they are doing their own job correctly.

Do they have enough parking space to accommodate the ever growing number of cars on road. Do they have proper traffic signs on road in a scientific manner. Do they have proper lane markings and signalling on road. Most important of all, do the have a similar punishment system for same type of law breakers. They need to answer these questions positively before they can use their rules and powers to punish a violator in a harsh manner. Again please don't forget that I'm always against breaking rules.
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