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View Poll Results: What action will encourage / induce / force people to follow traffic rules?
New laws, enforcement, police presence, traffic cameras and heavier fines 200 74.91%
Public activism 55 20.60%
Better driver training before as well as after issuing licenses 146 54.68%
Spreading the message of how to drive safe through newspaper ads / other media 37 13.86%
Nothing can help - people will carry on like this indefinitely 26 9.74%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 267. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 9th April 2015, 10:27   #31
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Default Re: Following traffic rules: What action will encourage / induce / force people to do it?

I voted for "Nothing can help". I am posting a video of Vadodara City. It's already shared in forum many times. One more time. It's worth watching!

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Old 9th April 2015, 10:48   #32
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Default Re: Public activism

Quote:
Originally Posted by SS-Traveller View Post
I recall another video that I am unable to trace now, where a gentleman stands in front of cars and blocks them because they have violated the stop line.
Is this the video you were referring to?

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Old 9th April 2015, 11:21   #33
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Default Re: Nothing can help - people will carry on like this indefinitely

Quote:
Originally Posted by msdivy View Post
No. Let me give an example. Every religious function has complex set of rules which everyone follows it.
Not exactly an appropriate example. Everyone follows rules at religious functions because we want to ensure that we receive divine blessings at the end of it. Given the steep fees most "pandit ji"s charge, a lower middle class person would need a personal loan to carry out a puja...

On the other hand, what do I get in return for following traffic rules? Nothing. I only end up losing precious 5-10 minutes of my life, which would be better spent taking selfies and uploading on Facebook <<insert your favorite pastime here>>.

I chose option 5. The recent Ceat ad got it bang on. The roads are filled with idiots. But that is just Part 1.

This is Part 2: Given enough time, the sanest and wisest among us turn into idiots too. I know I am on my way to becoming one. There are times when I would gladly run over that idiotic two wheeler blocking the first lane who won't move even after I flash and honk, even though the entire remaining width of the road is available. And I would stop to check if he survived. If he has, I would put my car in reverse...
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Old 9th April 2015, 12:39   #34
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Default Re: Following traffic rules: What action will encourage / induce / force people to do it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by dipak1406 View Post
Friends,

This is just an observation that Indians have by nature highly intellectual and adoptive personalities.

If you come in contact with other nations ( which I have ) we spend most of the time adjusting and " jugaad" with our present situation

Whereas, the other nationals fight to improve the situations.

Hence no amount of policing will change us as we will always find loopholes.

"We are blessed by God"

The only solution is that

a) traffic cops should not be allowed to cut challans nor should they be allowed to confesticate licences.

b) all vehicles should by default be asked to install a chip in which the details of the owner and address is saved

c) cops and traffic signals should have a device which will capture the chip if the traffic rule is broken

d) A challan would be send by post to the address of the defaulter and after certain number of challans his licence may be suspended or revoked or cancelled

As per PM Modi the only way to reduce corruption and get results is to minimize human intervention.

The above minimizes human intervention and 1 week of fine will compensate the expenses incurred by Government PAN India

Rgds,

Deepak
Completely agree with this, it already happens in Hyderabad at least to some extent. I have received challans by post for no parking with a photograph. Cant argue with that.
They even have a website where you can check for any pending fines based on registration number.
Cops can also be seen with a hand held device at some traffic junction and they key in your registration number to check for any pending challans.
They should also implement speed cameras at least in the city to start off with which should be automated and you would get a challan by post.

Lane cutting is another major problem however i dont see any simple solution for this.
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Old 9th April 2015, 12:50   #35
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Default Re: Following traffic rules: What action will encourage / induce / force people to do it?

I think there should be one more polling option to implement automation and reduce human intervention to fine traffic offenders. dipak1406 rightly highlighted this point. Otherwise celebrities and political strong holds will keep asking police "janta nahin main kaun hoon?" And the rickshawpullers will cry "sir, mere paas paisa nahin hain" So, two third of the population can escape fines today. To bring uniformity, requires technology, both in terms of hardware and software.
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Old 9th April 2015, 12:51   #36
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Default Re: Following traffic rules: What action will encourage / induce / force people to do it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by sarathlal View Post
Is this the video you were referring to?
Yes, thanks - that's the one.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tsk1979 View Post
Oh boy another thread about traffic rules.
Not about traffic rules, but an exploratory thread about how to make people comply with them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tsk1979 View Post
However, this problem is not solvable because we are attacking the wrong problem.
The problem: Rampant non-compliance with traffic rules.

The solutions:
The poll is the key to finding solutions, and it is throwing up some interesting findings already (114 votes).

As anticipated, a large majority (>77%) of folks consider that new laws, enforcement, police presence, traffic cameras and heavier fines will deter people from lawless driving. Obviously, no one follows rules unless there is someone staring over his shoulder. However, if we look at some statistics, we come up with:

1. Bangalore City Traffic Police - has less than 3,000 personnel to look after nearly 50 lakh vehicles that ply in the city.
2. Delhi Traffic Police - has nearly 5,500 personnel to control over 75 lakh vehicles in Delhi, plus an uncountable number entering the city daily from the NCR.
3. Mumbai Traffic Police - number around 3,000, with the vehicle population being around 25 lakhs.

This ratio obviously needs to change for traffic police presence & enforcement to be more effective; the number of personnel has to go up sharply if wielding the stick is the only way that compliance with traffic rules can be achieved.

We hope the state governments are listening, and planning to recruit & train many, many more personnel than they currently do. Without adequate presence of traffic police personnel, enforcement at all hours and on all roads is not going to happen.

-------------------------------------

Over 50% are also of the opinion that better driver training before as well as after issuing licenses. But given (How and when did you learn to drive?)
- the dismal scenario of driver training in every single state;
- the fact that most learn to drive on their own, or from poorly trained instructors at unregulated driving schools, or from their peers / elders / drivers; and
- the reality that no one ever fails a DL test and it is easy to get a DL without even appearing for a proper test;

this is one area that may not see radical improvement in the near future. The moot question here would be, who will train the trainer first?

------------------------------------

Public service messages and advertisements of how to drive safe through newspapers / other media seems to be a sheer waste of time, since only a little more than 11% of voters think that this can make a difference in how people drive. Yet, governments and police departments pump in lakhs of rupees into these exercises. Perhaps this needs to stop.

------------------------------------

Only 15% of people think that public activism will help rein in the unruly traffic on our roads. Public activism in India has achieved many goals in the past, from winning the country her freedom, to changing laws on corruption, rape and many other things. Yet, the fear of drivers' road rage is probably a contributing factor in keeping people from taking up public activism as a route to safer roads. Or is it that we do not want to start a movement that would come back to bite us, inconvenience us, and challenge how we ourselves behave when behind the wheel?

------------------------------------

Even if it is just 10% of people (read: well-educated automotive enthusiasts - after all, they are all Team-BHP members) saying there is no hope of any improvement in our road traffic scenario in the near - or even distant - future, there is cause for worry. What can convince them that improvements ARE possible?
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Old 9th April 2015, 13:28   #37
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Default Re: Following traffic rules: What action will encourage / induce / force people to do it?

At the moment, when there is a traffic violation and the cop writes a ticket, the onus is on the driver of the vehicle to prove that he / she is not guilty at the court of law.

This gives the cops a lot of leverage to add / delete violations based on their whims.

Turn that around to let the cop be the one who needs to prove the violation with evidence in court and things would be very different.

This would be a major deterrent.
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Old 9th April 2015, 13:36   #38
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Default Re: Following traffic rules: What action will encourage / induce / force people to do it?

I have voted for newer laws and heavier fines. In all probability increasing the fines will result in cops pocketing in more, but the eventual aim of instilling fear of heavy fines will be met. And, if by any chance the cop is honest and you have to pay up 5000 (just assuming a large number) for a red light jump you will not repeat it again.
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Old 9th April 2015, 13:59   #39
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Lightbulb Re: Following traffic rules: What action will encourage / induce / force people to do it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by lamborghini View Post
Speaking of DUI check points - I have to say this is a perfect example of how stringent policing + stringent penalty have impacted drinking and driving, at least in Mumbai.
Firstly, the cops here have their main check points for DUI, but also every now and then change their locations or set up additional points. Secondly, the penalty is that one can go to jail for a night - which coupled with the random check points has already deterred a few people.
Those who aren't deterred, and try such antics regularly typically get caught at some point or have a close experience. Because of the stringent stand against DUI, cops use this as an excuse to accept jacked up bribes to the tune of INR 10-15K (depending on your negotiation skills).
As a result, I know many people who used to brag of their excellent drinking and driving skills, who now use a taxi or public transport for such excursions.
I have felt the same here in Bangalore too. The no of people using personal transport has come down on weekends and this is due to the awareness that checks are more and wide on the weekends. On the weekdays, however, it is altogether different story there are no checks and maybe over the next few months we could see a shift in the pattern with the no. of DUI increasing on the week days.
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Old 9th April 2015, 14:49   #40
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Default Re: Following traffic rules: What action will encourage / induce / force people to do it?

Wow!
Out of the 209 votes, less than 10% have given up hope which is extremely good for the Indian roads and road-users. So, all of us have a role to play to ensure that percentage stays the same or reduces even further. I agree with tsk1979 about the fact that there is selective enforcement of rules and this leads to disillusions among the ones who follow the rules diligently.

Going further, I feel we should engage the youth for both educating, spreading, and enforcing the safety of both the road users and pedestrians. Team BHP has within it a large group of educated, vastly experienced, well-informed, highly concerned, and extremely motivated individuals who not only come from various geographical locations but also from different work front. This group could be divided into further small groups with a collective agenda to help change the overall road-users' mannerisms. We can talk to schools and colleges to participate with us and during public holidays spread around the various roads of the cities to engage the public to be responsible. Alternately, we can approach the traffic police to provide them the extra numbers that would be needed to increase awareness or even help them in better traffic management.


Ultimately, it is our responsibility to ensure the safety of not only our near and dear ones but also the public in general in future and make our roads better for us to enjoy our daily drive/ride
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Old 9th April 2015, 15:08   #41
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Default Re: Following traffic rules: What action will encourage / induce / force people to do it?

Voted for the last option.

New laws, enforcement, police presence, traffic cameras and heavier fines :

1. We already have enough laws. Enforcement is lacking, yes but given the vehicle population, it is very difficult to keep track of each offender.
2. Police presence used to help about 4-5 years ago. But nowadays even if there is Police presence, people are very sure that 9 times out of 10, the police will only watch or at the most blow the whistle.
3. Traffic cameras ? Huge infrastructure needs to be in place along with a dedicated police force.
4. Heavier fines ? We already have seen people getting away with murder and the likes - heavier fines will only be a deterrent (minor at that) for those that do not already run signals.

Public activism: The public is actively breaking existing traffic laws. Those like us who are FOR following traffic rules, have to be at the mercy of those who do not wish to follow them. Of course a huge crowd will gather to support any rally for traffic rules but these same people while going home from the rally will not mind running signals.

Better driver training before as well as after issuing licenses: And who will decide whether a particular driver has been trained properly or not ? On what basis ? In an existing system where one can get the driving licence without showing the required skills, how will this work ?

Spreading the message of how to drive safe through newspaper ads / other media: This is already being done but the moment one enters the battlefield of driving, nothing else remains in the head except for getting in front of everyone and reaching his/her destination as soon as possible.

I am not a pessimist, far from it I try to see the good side aka the silver lining on every cloud. But in this case, I have to say that I have resigned and accepted the fact that unless our mindset changes, unless we (or at least a minor majority of us Indians) choose to believe in the rights, safety and well being of other road users, this situation is not going to change.
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Old 9th April 2015, 15:09   #42
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Default Re: Following traffic rules: What action will encourage / induce / force people to do it?

We need to consider a lot of things before generalizing the whole situation into lack of awareness or just the absence of law and so on. Now, there are countries that have healthy habits and those without. It can also be seen that the the developed countries usually follow rules better that the devloping nations. In countries where breaking the rules are an 'exception' they usually have excellent roads and are not usually crowded. And in circumstances of a crowded city, they have cameras and duty cops round the clock. They also have very strict evaluation procedure when a candidate registers for a drivers license. And hence, a license is not something that can be easily attained and then there's the fear of loosing it (sometimes forever). It can be called a Culture that they have developed over the years. The same word can be used for describing many other aspects of their lives. The clean streets, respect for women, gender equality, freedom of speech and the list goes on. They have a Culture and healthy and safe riding practice are part the same.

The story is entirely different. Here in our place and we go on and on about our culture (which I doubt if we have any) and heritage (that, yes, we do and I am certain of that). We don't mind littering and spitting. We don't care about driving recklessly and dangerous. We certainly don't care for anything as long as 'men' do it. A women gets raped here and all hell breaks loose because the "woman was not wearing a culturally accepted saree" (that also happens to reveal more that a tee shirt would).

Sorry for getting distracted and towards irrelevant matters in this context. Returning to the point in hand, better driving is not something that can be forced upon people. Its something that has to be developed. Not in a matter of few years. Even though the rules and fines are strict and heavy, people would break the law at every possible opportunity where they get a feeling that they might not get caught. But we can certainly teach our own kids safe riding practices. The reason why enthusiastic people like in this forum are interested in following the rules are because we've had knowledgeable teachers. In my case, it was not my driving master but my father. He made me realize that breaking laws even while at driving is just as wrong as any other. He said its NOT over smartness but shamelessness. Not all people are that lucky. We can expect changes in the coming generation or two. The coming generations will certainly be better because they have better education system and are getting used to better roads and facilities. The change will occur and when it will happen, it will not only be limited to their driving. To have better driving citizens, we need to have better citizens.
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Old 9th April 2015, 15:24   #43
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Default Re: Following traffic rules: What action will encourage / induce / force people to do it?

In a country where not only vehicles but pedestrians also do not know which side of the road to walk, we are not going to see a change in situation anytime soon (read lass than 20-30 years).
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Old 9th April 2015, 15:41   #44
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Default Re: Following traffic rules: What action will encourage / induce / force people to do it?

I find these to be the causes for the problems in our traffic discipline.

Wrong focus of the cops: The focus of all their exercises is merely generation of revenue. Why else would they religiously check for RC Book, Insurance, PUC etc. when there are scores of vehicles trudging along with no working indicators, no mirrors, no working tail lights, glaring headlamps etc.? The latter are far, far more important when it comes to safety of the people. The former is an enforcement you can look at when the safety element is looked after.

Lack of venom in the cops. I see cops turning a blind eye to people who break rules. Be it waiting on the zebra crossing, driving on the wrong lane, talking on the phone, riding on the footpath. I have seen most cops just turn their heads around as if nothing is happening. Our cops need to be ruthless. Fine anyone and everyone who is breaking a law. Send DLs for cancellation if necessary.

Lack of civic sense: A major, major issue. Be it a pushcart vendor, an IT guy, or a manager. The lack of civic sense is prevalent amongst all classes of people regardless of their education. A lack of respect for the law combined with a lack of common sense serves as a deadly concoction for disaster on our roads.

Too much human intervention: Be it the fining system or the traffic signals. The current system requires too many people doing menial tasks while they should be focussing on the bigger picture. Have scientific formulae that decides and adapts traffic signal lengths based on vehicle density. Have sensors that will find if a vehicle is peeping after the stop line, get a camera linked to this sensor to automatically take a photo of the scene if required.

Have better infrastructure: Our roads cause too much wastage of time. There are barely any roads on which you can drive with confidence knowing you will not end up facing a cow or a 2ft wide pothole in the middle of the road. Also, have footpaths that do not facilitate a biker from riding on it. We are paying such huge road taxes after all, we deserve and must demand better roads!
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Old 9th April 2015, 15:43   #45
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Default Re: Following traffic rules: What action will encourage / induce / force people to do it?

Almost everyone at the driver seat wears the seatbelt these days. But was it always that way? What caused this change?

I am largely pessimistic at this time in expecting any major improvements. The limited enforcing manpower there is is only efficient at select offences. And to halt everyone else so that the political class can move through the city unhindered.
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