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Old 22nd April 2015, 06:31   #31
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Thumbs up Re: Road Barriers: An effective traffic management solution for India?

Good proposal aerohit - and thanks for pics of the latest variants of the barriers.

TL;DR - I'm for barriers - they will be 100% effective (fix loopholes)

Every time I'm at a signal, I think of these barriers. Whether it is crossing a stop signal or ignoring lanes, there is a reward for the offender - the offender nearly always wins!

What we need is to change behavior.

Lets look at the punishments (aka negative reinforcement)

Current:
1. Fines/imprisonment
2. Damage to others/ own vehicle and loss of lives

These are ineffective for the simple reason that they are actually rewarding the offender by being so rarely negative.

The proposed barriers are a good solution:

Negative results 100% of the time equals Quick behavior change.
Downside - loss of lives, severe damage.
Loopholes - drive around barrier or other ways to circumvent the barrier.

But why are we OK with killing pedestrians and others? The barrier would be highly damaging to the offenders and this should be more acceptable than killing / damaging the innocent party.

I think the damaging consequences of running a red light for other people requires a sufficiently stringent response to keep potential offenders from ever thinking of crossing a red signal. It will take a few deaths to teach drivers not to run a red light - you don't see drivers take a shortcut to the bottom of the mountain on ghat roads because they know that the rules of Nature are unforgiving.

Suggestion - Set up the barriers to puncture the tires of the offender(s). If some modifications are made to the barriers to create a slow leak in the offenders' tyres, I think the punishment and safety aspects will be solved. But here we are ignoring the fact that the other party will be injured, while the safety of the offender is assured. Problem now is to do the engineering required.

Last edited by mvadg : 22nd April 2015 at 06:32. Reason: typo
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Old 22nd April 2015, 13:43   #32
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Default Re: Road Barriers: An effective traffic management solution for India?

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Originally Posted by luvtandon View Post
Dear adisag,

I want to ask that what is one supposed to do when the signal timer is showing more than 30-40 seconds till the light is green and still one is unable to cross the signal due to a traffic jam and is stranded on the zebra crossing, which is one of the reasons that the traffic policemen do not bother to challan such vehicles.
Kindly shed some light.
As per the rule that the Bangalore police attempted to implement a while ago, crossings are no-stopping/standing zones. Therefore, if the traffic situation up front is such that one cannot cross without stopping in between, one should not enter the crossing (stop behind the stop line).

This could have been an excellent way to implement both these items of discipline - do not cross the stop line, and do not cross if one cannot cross completely. However, the situation in India is such (as enumerated in previous posts) that there will always be someone trying to get around it.

We need to build better infrastructure (footpaths right up to the road, on all roads except highways), and enforce some rules better (no driving on the foot path, actually fine people for traffic offences rather than scolding them or just plain ignoring them).

Let's start at the beginning. Make the issuing of licenses corruption free, the tests relevant to today, standardise the training material at driver training schools and make training and sign-off before being able to apply for a license mandatory. We will see results in time, when the people with "invalid" or "purchased" licenses have either quit driving or are in the minority, but it is much better in the long run than an expensive and aggressive system that could potentially damage vehicles, and lead to chaos for a while to come.
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Old 22nd April 2015, 14:03   #33
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Default Re: Road Barriers: An effective traffic management solution for India?

In Hyderabad one gets a challan for crossing the stop line. Pictures are taken with cameras installed on the traffic lights.
This should be intensified as it is a simple cost effective solution with no inherent dangers.
What I notice here it is mostly the bikers that cross the line. I am sure if one continues to receive fines at some point they would change.
Traffic cops have a device where they key in your registration number and check if you have any fines that are not yet paid.
More than 4 wheelers I notice that 2 & 3 wheelers openly flout the rules.
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Old 22nd April 2015, 14:21   #34
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Default Re: Road Barriers: An effective traffic management solution for India?

We need well engineered and quality infrastructure.
We need an overhaul of the RTOs so ensure having a driving licenses are not just a formality.
We need better traffic law awareness across the country.
We need stricter police action on traffic offenders.

But! They are all long term solutions. It will be decades before we see much improvement in the current situation.

I am all for putting up barriers at a few major intersections, especially where traffic jams happen each morning and evening during rush hours. Back it up with a few cops to fine anyone trying to bypass the system. Hopefully, people will learn.

Traffic across the country is a mess right now and we need to start somewhere.


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Originally Posted by cooldude1988765 View Post
In Hyderabad one gets a challan for crossing the stop line. Pictures are taken with cameras installed on the traffic lights.
This should be intensified as it is a simple cost effective solution with no inherent dangers.
What I notice here it is mostly the bikers that cross the line. I am sure if one continues to receive fines at some point they would change.
Traffic cops have a device where they key in your registration number and check if you have any fines that are not yet paid.
More than 4 wheelers I notice that 2 & 3 wheelers openly flout the rules.
That sounds like a great way to control traffic as well. I recently saw Delhi traffic police something similar. Traffic cops take photos of the offenders which are directly sent to their central control room. I assume they are then issued a fine from there. This was probably just a trial phase though.

Last edited by toothless : 22nd April 2015 at 14:43.
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Old 22nd April 2015, 15:20   #35
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Default Re: Road Barriers: An effective traffic management solution for India?

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That sounds like a great way to control traffic as well. I recently saw Delhi traffic police something similar. Traffic cops take photos of the offenders which are directly sent to their central control room. I assume they are then issued a fine from there. This was probably just a trial phase though.
This has been in place in Hyderabad for quite some time. It started of at a few junctions in the city almost 5-6 years back if I am not wrong.
There is an App as well to check any unpaid traffic challans apart from the website.
There is a clear picture of the offence as well.
You can also often see cops clicking pictures on their digi cams for other offences like no parking etc.
I myself have been at the receiving end of the no parking challans on two occasions. They also charge you Rs 35 as service charges ( I assume for clicking the picture and uploading on website)
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Old 22nd April 2015, 15:29   #36
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Default Re: Road Barriers: An effective traffic management solution for India?

Another thread which makes me go, "This? In India? Sure! hahahahaha..."

I think a much cheaper solution is putting a hi-def camera at the junction, one operator noting down the registration details of all vehicles, sending challans/summons and issuing "impound vehicle" instructions in case the challan remains unpaid. Picture should be sent along with the challan which leaves no room for unnecessary argument.

The camera cost would be recovered in less than a week, all other infrastructure (pole, office room etc.) would be recovered in less than a month and we'd still be left with some money which can be used to pay incentives to the operator.

Something like this helps educate the ill-informed lot. It makes the next generation more aware of traffic laws. Putting a barrier is a great idea but then what you would find is two-wheelers going on the pavement to bypass such barriers. Education is more important to drive a better DNA rather than mistake-proofing.
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Old 22nd April 2015, 21:34   #37
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Default Re: Road Barriers: An effective traffic management solution for India?

I like the idea, but implementation will be a bit tricky. Not to mention unruly drivers, two wheelers, etc but maintenance should also be regularly taken care of. Instead I think over hauling the current system of fines is a better idea. With a constant threat of fines and three strikes and you are out will instil at least some amount of fear.

Proactive participation of the traffic police is also necessary. They can control traffic properly, but refuse to do so except on independence day, republic day and when some dignitaries visit.

Lastly, nothing will beat the method of education. Unless and until people themselves start obeying all rules, any amount of enforcement is not going to help. So I think it is imperative that the kids are taught to obey all traffic rules from school level itself.

Today was election day in navi mumbai, and usually people park vehicles near schools, etc, but they being voting centres there was a cop posted outside literally shoo-ing stopped vehicles. I was impressed. For the first time, a 4 laned road was not reduced to a 2 lane one!
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Old 23rd April 2015, 11:20   #38
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Default Re: Road Barriers: An effective traffic management solution for India?

In India, colors of traffic lights can be perceived as amber- ready, green- go and red- go faster.
These solutions have one seriously big hurdle, sometimes traffic flow is still on the junction (meeting area of crossroad) and another side open opens for traffic. In such a situation damage to cars for a good number of months would be hourly routine.

If police authorities may still find a way install these. If these at all happens then please make sure that barriers are close enough to not let auto rickshaw pass by.
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Old 23rd April 2015, 12:30   #39
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Default Re: Road Barriers: An effective traffic management solution for India?

Quote:
Originally Posted by luvtandon View Post
Imagine one of these systems getting implemented in a city like Delhi. Now what will happen to the law abiding citizen who is trying to cross a signal when it is still green but due to heavy traffic it takes about 20-25 seconds to cross the signal (and this is a common phenomena on Delhi roads).

The result is here for every to see -
Very valid point.

The solution to this and some other issues mentioned, could be to keep this protrusion as a rectangular slab around 10 inches high. Worst case if you do happen to be on it, it would rise beneath your vehicle and you can drive away after some effort.

The trick would be to keep the height low so it doesn't cause damage, and high enough that it's inconvenient for most to jump over. And majority people will definitely try to stop beforehand once they are aware to avoid driving into this slab headlong.

It can also serve as a pilot project to gauge the effectiveness of this method in India without causing much damage.

Last edited by avisidhu : 23rd April 2015 at 12:35.
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Old 23rd April 2015, 14:52   #40
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Default Re: Road Barriers: An effective traffic management solution for India?

We really need to get some of these barriers. Cant let the Dutch have all the fun. India needs its fair share too.
If anything we'll get some great youtube footage:






And on a similar theme, some more classics:





Enjoy.

Jeroen

Last edited by Jeroen : 23rd April 2015 at 14:53.
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Old 29th April 2015, 09:46   #41
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Default Re: Road Barriers: An effective traffic management solution for India?

This is slightly off topic -

In a newly built apartment, we have trouble regulating traffic in specific direction. Purely because there are kids playing on the ground floor and people only talk but not act about how speed should be limited, and direction of flow of traffic to be controlled. No actions whatsoever. So few of the residents have come up with the idea of unidirectional spikes - they all the time allow the vehicles to pass on it in only one direction the way it is fitted. Anyone trying to take this in reverse direction looses at the least two tyres The cars anyway wont go beyond 30-35 kmph in such roads but they are still dangerous for kids movement.

The idea is worth considering but cost is not feasible. The reason I mention this is because many feel the need for such things, yet seldom practically seen being followed. Hence such extreme measures of barricades and deterrents.

Again note that this may not work on public roads but definitely doable on School and office campuses including residential large apartment complexes. I personally believe there has to be some deterrent whatsoever to put some discipline.

Apologies if this was way too off topic.
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Old 2nd May 2015, 17:55   #42
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Default Re: Road Barriers: An effective traffic management solution for India?

+1 Im all for setting up physical barriers at major intersections at the very least. If there is going to be any damage to property or injury/loss of life it will be to the person who is hell bent on breaking the rules.
That coupled with heavy fines and maybe some corporal punishment in other areas is the only way to make us Indians behave
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Old 14th May 2015, 15:10   #43
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Default Re: Road Barriers: An effective traffic management solution for India?

The View from the Front Seat of the Google Self-Driving Car



From the article:

Quote:
Intersections can be scary places. Over the last several years, 21% of the fatalities and about 50% of the serious injuries on U.S. roads have involved intersections. And the injuries are usually to pedestrians and other drivers, not the driver running the red light. This is why we’ve programmed our cars to pause briefly after a light turns green before proceeding into the intersection — that’s often when someone will barrel impatiently or distractedly through the intersection.
More ammunition for solid barriers campaign!!
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Old 14th May 2015, 16:19   #44
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Default Re: Road Barriers: An effective traffic management solution for India?

A simpler design that is easier to implement and doesnt do damage to the vehicle but can hurt the tyres.

A spike that activates at red light.

This will teach people what orange light means - slow down and stop.
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Old 15th May 2015, 23:54   #45
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Default Re: Road Barriers: An effective traffic management solution for India?

How about this as a consequence?
http://i.imgur.com/stqh07N.gifv
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