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Old 25th July 2015, 12:10   #301
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Default Re: Car convoy attacked in Ladakh by taxi mafia!

Just saw this on Facebook.
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Old 25th July 2015, 12:16   #302
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Default Re: Car convoy attacked in Ladakh by taxi mafia!

Quote:
Originally Posted by ashnd
Not only will this shatter to bits the white lies being told about a check post and a peaceful queue of vehicles, but this has helped us identify at-least some people who we will name in our petition in the Kashmiri High Court, via Drive Without Borders, the NGO.
The Drive Without Borders case seems to be at a higher level, and not about the attack per-se. @SILVERWOOD may be able to clarify that better. But are you planning to get an FIR registered, now that you have got more further evidence available? Please note, you can file an FIR even using registered post with acknowledgement. File it with the Superintendent of Police, Leh - he is the top most police officer out there.

Quote:
They then try and snatch his keys, wherein the dashcam shakes, he winds his window up, and revs his engine to show his displeasure at such high-handedness. They then gesture for him to stay put whilst the destruction begins.
I don't think they just revved the engine, but actually moved the vehicle. At 0:58min, we can see a pole on the left hand side of the figure. Keep that as a reference point and then watch the video further. By 1:01 mins, the pole is now where to be seen (which means the position has changed). At 01:05 mins, a man with a white cap is bending down (towards the right of the vehicle). Was he trying to place a stone under the wheel or some thing? He then pops up right in front of the bonnet/hood! So the driver actually tried to drive away, which seems to have made the taxi mafia even more upset. The taxi fellows have clearly taken this as an attempt to run them down.

Quote:
Originally Posted by malq
Fact - Even in urban areas, taxi and auto drivers protect their "turf". This can be seen at airports, railway and even Metro stations where taxies and autos which drop off passengers are not allowed to pick passengers up.
You know what. In the small town in my native place, the auto rickshaw drivers in the town called for a bandh, because auto rickshaws from neighbouring villages are taking passengers on the sly. The town drivers said that they have to shell out Rs.1,00,000 to get a "town permit" where as the village fellows don't have such requirements. But luckily police in the town have no love lost to the auto rickshaw drivers (both from the town & surrounding villages). So the strike which had chances of becoming violent was put down in 1-2 hours.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Akki_5
I am the driver of the Fortuner in the dash cam video and was a part of the convoy with my family and friends.
Does your dash cam have a facility to capture the audio as well? If it does, it would be better to keep the audio as well. I am not questioning your motive, but the audio brings in more credibility that is all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Torqy
All these Local Laws / Bans and this "Outsiders" thing remind me of how Bangalore RTO treats "outsider" vehicles. When somebody in plain clothes stops your vehicle, you don't know who / what it is for.
This video is there in the (now locked up) Karnataka RTO related thread. The vehicle from Haryana had clearly made an attempt to make an escape, even taking the risk of hitting a person (could be a tout, an RTO officer in mufti, or normal civilian). From what I have seen in India, attempt to injure a person and get away is not tolerated pretty much in any part of the country. In the RTO incident, this is what prompted them to put up a chase, get the driver at the next junction and thrash him. Being from Haryana, the driver should have known how road-rage happens in New Delhi and surrounding areas. Sorry for going off-topic here.
-----------
Any ways, I feel that the video should be circulated. At least to make people aware of such things happening in Leh-Ladakh. Now it is up to the people to decide the risk levels (and money levels as well), they are planning to take.

Last edited by sachinpk : 25th July 2015 at 12:18.
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Old 25th July 2015, 12:27   #303
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Originally Posted by malq View Post

What would I do if I was somehow pushed in front of a vehicle revving to get out? Think about it carefully and then blame somebody for picking up a stone.

If I was pushed in front of a vehicle revving to get out I would blame the person who pushed me. I would definitely not smash the already revving car with anything. But then, I have seen the Range Rover road rage clip on YouTube way too many times and am aware of what the consequences could be.

Quote:
Originally Posted by malq View Post
These are cold observations from me, not opinions, so if they upset some people, not much I can do about it, since they are facts.

Are these your observations or facts? They can't be both.

The fact is that a vehicle travelling on a public road was stopped by random people and intentionally smashed by rocks/stones while the driver was still in it. This is the only thing you can be sure of based on that video and I know for a fact that it is unlawful to do that.
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Old 25th July 2015, 12:36   #304
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Default Re: Car convoy attacked in Ladakh by taxi mafia!

Idiotic Article... First it says that the outside/private/self rented vehicles would not be allowed to ply for ecological reasons. Do the local taxis not pollute the surroundings? Old, rickety and in need of dire maintainence. Do they pass the pollution certification?

Damn, I'm so incensed I'm unable to type clearly. Let them rot!!!! That's all I would say!
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Old 25th July 2015, 12:50   #305
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Default Re: Car convoy attacked in Ladakh by taxi mafia!

Quote:
Originally Posted by VineetSoni
Just saw this on Facebook.
CEC Spalbar seems to be an expert in double speak. Read the report. He has not formally committed to any thing to any body (be it the taxi union or to the tourists). All he talks about is "handling the issue in a sensible & systematic manner to make it more meaningful & purposeful". Nothing has actually come out of the meeting, and I am reminded of the numerous quotes which I get every day from a Malayalam movie clip (making fun of Keralite leftist politicians).
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Old 25th July 2015, 12:52   #306
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Default Re: Car convoy attacked in Ladakh by taxi mafia!

Sir,

Your posts here increasingly don't make any sense. You're using sweeping generalizations to support sweeping assertions. Please give specific details - your observations don't become facts because you labeled them to be so!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by malq View Post
Fact - Driving out of State motor vehicles is becoming increasingly risky in many parts of India. If not the taxi mafias, then there are always the local authorities to contend with.
Specifically what?

Quote:
Fact - A vast variety of local laws impacting road transport makes it difficult to be in adherence at all times, so matters have reached regular extortion levels in many places.
Again, specifically what?

Quote:
Fact - Many city drivers in over-powered cars and bikes do not have the faintest clue of what 200% safe driving means. 100% for themselves and 100% for other road users.
True for many folks, but this is a sweeping generalization that cannot be used to restrict the rights of millions of Ladakh aspirants. You don't ban 95% because of 5% - people who go to Ladakh have considerable experience and planning. They aren't the equivalent of drunk college kids doing a spur of the moment trip. You can't posit a solution for Ladakh basis the idiots we see around Shimla.

The only real solutions is Enforcement. You can set up enough cameras. Charge and tax the hell out of every visitor to pay for it. Fine the idiots (including the local taxi drivers, mind you) in tens of thousands of rupees.

Quote:
Fact - Loans for taxies have become extremely easy making it very easy for people to fall into horrendous debt traps.

Fact - Solutions will have to be found taking into account all these, and more, parameters.
No one asked them to get into any business. Businesses fail routinely all across the world. Should everyone get bailed out or worse, get protectionism? (note : I'm all for development assistance for villagers, not taxi walas - BIG difference).

Now let's extend your "facts" into the realm of hyperbole - By that logic, there are enough hundreds of millions of poor and destitute people all over India as well. Let's stop all the factories all over India by that logic? Let's also ban any mechanization. Let's ban personal automobiles and buses and use only tongas?!

Quote:
Now, I watch and wait, meanwhile I travel by train and then hire a local vehicle. Pity there is no train to Ladakh.
Congratulations - please live your life your way. But don't try and advocate us to lead our lives your way. Asking people to be responsible citizens and drivers is logical. Asking them not to drive is patently illogical.

Let's look elsewhere. Courtesy India's recent prosperity many Indians travel overseas and drive there as well. Has any country banned Indians? To the best of my knowledge, no. Everywhere there are strict rules and enforcement. Even in the absence of any policemen controlling traffic.

The world has moved on from banning, quotas and protectionism to policing methods that actually work. About time we did as well.
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Old 25th July 2015, 13:01   #307
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Default Re: Car convoy attacked in Ladakh by taxi mafia!

Quote:
Originally Posted by VineetSoni View Post
Just saw this on Facebook.
Attachment 1395259
Why allow them even on National Higways? Just because the tourists or supplies can come in? If you are dead serious about environment, and believe only JK10 are the non-polluting vehicles, stop every outside vehicle at Zoji La and Rohtang. Send in your taxis to bring the supplies and tourists (if there are any).

They are trying to cover up the main issue here about money. Let them ban outside vehicles, it will automatically take a large chunk of tourists out. Job well done.
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Old 25th July 2015, 13:26   #308
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Default Re: Car convoy attacked in Ladakh by taxi mafia!

Very sad and also deeply disturbed & anguished to read about this affair. Leh Ladakh was on my bucket list of places to visit. But I'm sure this is just a handful of criminal elements and they do not represent the wide majority of Ladakhis.

Full sympathies with the threadstarter. The only fact here is that this is out & out criminal behaviour and all involved need to be served the strictest punishment under IPC, no two ways about it.

Attempts to justify these actions under the garb of business interests, tourist mis-behaviour, ecological concerns are laughable & utter rubbish IMO.

Quote:
Originally Posted by malq View Post
These are cold observations from me, not opinions, so if they upset some people, not much I can do about it, since they are facts.

Get real with realities. Who tried to drive over the old man with the white cap who fell in front of the dashcam footage FIRST??
Sir, you need to watch the video again, preferably using a professional grade software if you intend to quote 'facts' from it.

Also, the audio can be disabled in most dash cams and in some it is a factory default to conserve storage space. Many dash cam users prefer to disable it due to the same reason.

The 'Facts' are as follows:

1. At 00:55 the dash cam starts shaking signifying external assault on the stationary Fortuner

2. At 00:58/59 Fortuner starts rolling forward slowly, presumably because of this assault. (observe the movement relative to the ground line)

3. At 01:00 the 'elderly man' is seen pushed by the Gypsy on extreme right of the frame and falling down due to this push

4. Through to 01:05 the Gypsy slows down due to this brush between the 'elderly man' and the Gypsy and left door opens slightly but then the Gypsy driver decides to move on

5. The elderly man (who doesn't appear elderly at all judging by his actions), gets up, at 01:09 lifts a heavy stone and rushes towards the Fortuner and bangs it on the bonnet of the Fortuner

6. The dash cam continues to shake through this while the Fortuner is stationary and only starts rolling again at 01:14, exactly 14 seconds after the 'elderly man' fell down, got up, ran to the side, picked up the heavy stone and flung it on the bonnet
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Old 25th July 2015, 14:05   #309
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Default Re: Car convoy attacked in Ladakh by taxi mafia!

It's an attempt to murder case. Simple.

See that in isolation of all the civil issues of permitting a certain category of vehicles or environmental disturbance etc.

All those giving gyan on how the Fortuner driver should have reacted, keep your conscience clear and tell how you would have reacted when a bunch of guys threaten you and your family. If someone says they'll park/roll down windows/get down and talk, good luck believing fairy tales are true.
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Old 25th July 2015, 14:26   #310
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Default Re: Car convoy attacked in Ladakh by taxi mafia!

Sorry to say, the Fortuner drive did the most sanest thing anyone could have ever done faced with such criminals. If someone is threatening my family and trying to throw boulders and stones at my car which would harm/kill people in the car, damn I would run the entire planet over. The kicking and hitting started long before the guy fell down from the Gypsy hit, so no question of the hit starting the violence. The Ladakhi who posted his version should be ashamed of his blatant lies.

Secondly, banning all private vehicles in Ladakh means RIP to Ladakh/Leh. The owners of the hotels can consider their property as one big ghost building and stay in it themselves.
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Old 25th July 2015, 14:44   #311
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Originally Posted by VineetSoni View Post
Just saw this on Facebook.
Attachment 1395259
If it's true, they can keep ladakh to themselves. The place needs to be completely boycotted by travelers.
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Old 25th July 2015, 15:27   #312
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Default Re: Car convoy attacked in Ladakh by taxi mafia!

Quote:
Originally Posted by malq View Post
What would I do if I was somehow pushed in front of a vehicle revving to get out? Think about it carefully and then blame somebody for picking up a stone.
And what would you do if an angry mob tried to break windows and gain access into the car where you and your family are sitting terrified? Just wait calmly?

Quote:
There is another factor - while a private driving licence technically entitles us to drive all over India in a private car, some restrictions can be placed on border roads as well as roads specific to some purposes. A private driving licence does not entitle us to go wherever we want to - try and get into a bus lane on a BRT or try and enter the taxi lane at the airport or railway station, for example. Or try and enter high security areas?
What you are pointing out are specific traffic violations. The driving license still lets you drive anywhere in India which within legal limits. And no where is it mentioned that taking your own car or driving a self-driven car is illegal in those parts.

Quote:
Maybe the Ladakh taxi operators have a valid point - everybody and their nephews should not be permitted on every road in Ladakh, especially in over-powered vehicles. Let there be a rule that duly licenced, duly trained, duly certified and duly insured drivers will only be permitted to drive on certain roads. If private drivers do not meet these conditions, stringent and why not, then they can hire a driver from a pool of such locally duly licenced/certified/insured/trained options, who will be graded according to their skills and certifications for vehicles by engine and power sizes. Such drivers shall also have para-medical training, be aware of local search and rescue options and in general be more like beacons of responsiblity for their State and for India. In due course of time some of these drivers can be way better than the rally drivers we have in India.
Sir, we are talking about driving on a mountain terrain, not a NASA astronaut endurance training.

From various news that has come out, it's pretty clear that this is not a one-off incident. The motive of the taxi union is clear and resorting to such hooliganism is downright pathetic and something that should be nipped at the bud. Let the restaurants and food stalls at Leh ban bringing food from outside and force people to buy from them. Food business is as much of a livelihood for people there as is taxi. Do you get the drift? It's a slippery slop that!
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Old 25th July 2015, 15:50   #313
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Default Re: Car convoy attacked in Ladakh by taxi mafia!

Local people have to get first priority. Everywhere. Outsiders are welcome to take their tourism elsewhere if that is how it evolves. Look at your private driving licences carefully - does it allow you to drive rental self-drive cars on an all-India basis or only in the State of registration of the said rental self-drive car?

I have friends in the tourism business, summers Ladakh, winters Goa. From them I hear - we don't want such boorish tourists. The lot here don't want to go to Ladakh anymore. Seems like a fit to me. Both will survive without each other.

Damage to property is one thing. Trying to endanger another person's life by trying to run over him is something else. That answers the dashcam footage, shown so far, and obviously just a very short clip of something much longer.

Wake up and smell the coffee. Ladakh will survive the absence of a few dozen self-drive tourists who appear to be more aggressive about their perceived "rights" basis a minute of a dashcam footage which appears to be muted. Let's get a look at the complete footage?

And.

Don't be surprised when more footage surfaces from outside the vehicle too.
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Old 25th July 2015, 15:52   #314
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Default Re: Car convoy attacked in Ladakh by taxi mafia!

I found another reply by a ladakhi in the ladakh in the media facebook group. He attempts to present the "other perspective"

https://www.facebook.com/groups/3404...5289689216547/

Mods: please remove this if it is against forum rules.


"Have seen the video on YouTube ?? , Go see it once again
Few points to be noted .
1. A private car ( crv\ santafe ) leading the fortuner is also a outside car , the car passed freely and no one even tried to stop it ,
2. This car was a rental car , and it is widely circulated on the internet that no self driven car will be allowed .. The guy being a member of teambhp especially knew about it .
3 . on being stopped , he instead tried to run away . he hav to stop somehow as he can't ran over the locals.
4. On being stopped ,one guy asked to come step out of car for negotiation (his gesture )
5 . we can't see any thing like hockey stick , stones or any weapons in their hands , this proves there was no intention of harming initially.
6 . There's no audio and this is for a reason , according to first hand informations I got . when stopped he instead of negotiating starts using abusive words and said ... " tum gorkhe log jante nhi ho meh kaun hun " ..
7. The guy is the white cap was almost crushed (look carefully @ 01:01 ) under the right front wheel . according to sources he allegedly suffered a fracture .
8. Things turn violent only after that ..
9. the resolution was passed , with support of all business organisation ,religious organisations . it was in effect from last two months , many have drive knowingly or unknowingly beyond the leh and were made to pay the fine.
10. No outside vehicles who have gone against the resolution was harmed , it was sorted out by peaceful negotiations .
11.These guys dare to go against the resolution as they were there on reference from some influential person.
12. Some says ( not first hand information) these guys drove their cars into pangong lake , when local taxi driver tried to stop them , they thrashed them ( yes ,they were a group of 15 cars )
13. The above point look especially convincing since a group of locals stopped them specifically ( the preceding car was not stopped)
14. The pt12 looks convincing also because the convoy as they claim are a member of teambhp . And if you know teambhp , places like ladakh could serve only one purpose for them i.e offroading . But unfortunately they seems to have chosen the wrong place .
experts and authorities bars cars from going near the lake ( 500 metre ,according to experts )
The above points are not to justify what these peoples in the video did as,but since some people ( of the teambhp) are trying everything to damage the image of ladakh , its important to clarify not all they said are true. These peoples are doing it intentionally or unintentionally .
Intentionally , because ladakh will not allow these offroad junkies to explore ecosensetive place n water bodies with their machine , this is done as such action abuses the fragile environment eg. Pangong lake attracts thousands of rare and endangered migratory birds , rampant abuse of pangong could not only effect them but it may become the reason of extinction of many endangered species.
Few people are spreading the words as they were made to believe some sorts of massacre has happened , this is because teambhp is a website where only the member can comment and discuss , non-members like us can only read ,share what they post ,comment. Since , the member are close to each other ( many know each other is real life ) its obvious that only one side of the story will be explored . Most members are endorsing the story blindly ,like many people on the social media ,yet there are some members who understand the effect on fragile environment and has enough space to explore the other side of the story .
It's to your good self whether to believe in one bad story or thousand good stories.
I know this will reach those peoples at teambhp and many will crack jokes on my English, which is fine with me as long as they feel good . But i would like to suggest them to come out of teambhp and discuss in open groups as a discussion between few likeminded peoples will led no where but to the same predetermined end."

Last edited by bullrun87 : 25th July 2015 at 16:06.
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Old 25th July 2015, 16:20   #315
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Default Re: Car convoy attacked in Ladakh by taxi mafia!

Quote:
Originally Posted by malq View Post
Local people have to get first priority. Everywhere. Outsiders are welcome to take their tourism elsewhere if that is how it evolves. Look at your private driving licences carefully - does it allow you to drive rental self-drive cars on an all-India basis or only in the State of registration of the said rental self-drive car?
In your hurried bias you forgot to check on this.
http://www.zoomcar.com/outstation

for those too lazy to click that link:

Quote:
Going Outstation?

Zoomcar vehicles are equipped with an All India Permit so that the entire Sub-Continent is at your fingertips! You are free to travel outside the state you picked up the car. In fact, we highly encourage you to get out there and explore this beautiful country!

Zoomcar has a commercial vehicle designation (that's why we have black with yellow plates). It is NOT required that you have a special driver's license or badge in order to operate our vehicles anywhere in India!

Quote:
I have friends in the tourism business, summers Ladakh, winters Goa. From them I hear - we don't want such boorish tourists. The lot here don't want to go to Ladakh anymore. Seems like a fit to me. Both will survive without each other.
We dont want boorish/ people from anywhere to come down to our cities. But we dont specifically blame rest of india in the way our cities are being run down. This shows the underlying problem you and the rest of Ladakh have. You are against the average indian tourist. I saw the same in Goa, Gulmarg and for no fault of mine. This is a mindset issue. Unless this changes by working on rules and framework you are being plain lazy expecting tourists to do the hard work. There are a zillion problems in each of these tourist places which even we feel should have been taken care of eons ago. but we dont complain either!


Quote:
Damage to property is one thing. Trying to endanger another person's life by trying to run over him is something else. That answers the dashcam footage, shown so far, and obviously just a very short clip of something much longer.
That is a laughable defense. Do you not see that the vehicle and its occupants were the ones who were in extreme danger? Do you really think they would have simply had an honest discussion with the driver of that vehicle if he had complied with them taking his keys and he getting out? No Way! They would have thrashed the hell out of him and his family could have got it worse. Especially if there were women in there. the police apathy in protecting the tourists is only adding to it. I wonder if the cops would stand and watch a foreigner attacked of fear of repurcussion. but its only us indian tourists. Chalta hai.

Quote:
Wake up and smell the coffee. Ladakh will survive the absence of a few dozen self-drive tourists who appear to be more aggressive about their perceived "rights" basis a minute of a dashcam footage which appears to be muted. Let's get a look at the complete footage?
Actually you should wake up and take off those rose tinted glasses my friend. Ladakh or any other tourist place will not survive as long as they dont learn and understand the meaning of the word "accomodating". With such high handed behaviour and obvious anti bias towards Indian tourists, combined with most of the western countries having struggling economies, You need to really think about that tone of yours. Who knows, these may be the only tourists you may get in the future. the people in these places obviously have a sense of entitlement which is only going to make matters worse for them.

And.

Quote:
Don't be surprised when more footage surfaces from outside the vehicle too.
Would love to see additional proof. So far there has been none. In fact the only one producing proof is being blamed for doing it in a delayed fashion! What nerve!

Last edited by manson : 25th July 2015 at 16:30. Reason: Fixed quote. Please take the time to browse through our annpouncements section before proceeding further.
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