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Old 26th July 2015, 12:44   #376
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Default Re: Car convoy attacked in Ladakh by taxi mafia!

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Originally Posted by malq View Post
4) I know of building societies and campuses fitting static dB meters to dissuade and then deny operation of extra loud vehicles and expect the same in Ladakh too where, yes, they can and will look under the bonnet for checking modifications as well as double check emissions.

5) Criminal investigations follow a chronological path. Let us assume that the crime started well before the vehicle reached the point where the vehicle's driver tried to run over the elderly man in the white cap? Self defence becomes even more important now.

Have a nice day. Responses based on facts would be appreciated. And do read up the MVA that you were supposed to know, especially Rules of the Road, if you have valid driving licences for the hopefully street legal vehicles you operate. Not vehicles that contravene not just Form 22A.
Hmmmm, just for the sake of humour, do you comprehend the difference between public roads and private roads? Parking spaces and confined campuses do not, repeat - do NOT, please pay attention here to the word in CAPS, DO NOT - fall under the definition of public roads. The roads in Ladakh are, repeat ARE, pay attention to the word in CAPS again, ARE - public roads.

Societies and institutions own the confined spaces by law and are empowered BY LAW, again please pay special attention to the words in CAPS, BY LAW, to frame rules and guidelines, not LAWS but rules and guidelines, on the use of the same.

Now are you trying to say that the specific road in question from the video in question is owned by the local taxi mafia, and those people in the video are by law entrusted to stop and check any vehicles at their whims, and take punitive action as deemed fit?

Just on the off chance that you are not aware, a driver is not liable to stop unless signalled by a UNIFORMED POLICE OFFICER, please pay attention again to the words in CAPS. So are you saying that the persons who flagged the vehicle down in the video are UNIFORMED POLICE OFFICERS?

Did you read up the MVA yourself? Or did you skip over the laws which the locals broke first, before reading ahead?

And for all your talk about facts and evidence, how do you assume the crime started well before the video? Care to share any evidence for the same? Or just like the taxi mafia, do you expect your word to be law and evidence here?

Last edited by honeybee : 26th July 2015 at 12:46.
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Old 26th July 2015, 13:02   #377
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Default Re: Car convoy attacked in Ladakh by taxi mafia!

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Originally Posted by kk21 View Post
I have to pay income tax on all my earnings from Ladakh, where as Ladaki's are exempt from it.
Interesting, I just read about section 10(26) in the Income tax that provides relief to residents of Ladakh from income tax, subject to certain conditions.


Quote:
(26) in the case of a member of a Scheduled Tribe ... residing in any area ... or in the Ladakh region of the State of Jammu and Kashmir, any income which accrues or arises to him,—
(a) from any source in the areas or States aforesaid, or
(b) by way of dividend or interest on securities;

I was not aware of this provision in the Income Tax Act earlier.

Source

EDIT : In addition to Ladakh, there are other areas that qualify for this exemption - refer to the Act for complete details.

Last edited by sdp1975 : 26th July 2015 at 13:15.
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Old 26th July 2015, 13:14   #378
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Default Re: Car convoy attacked in Ladakh by taxi mafia!

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Originally Posted by Chetan_Rao
I'd suggest you watch again too. The vehicle may have moved a bit due to the gradient of the terrain it was on
The vehicle was all stationary for around 40 seconds before that. So how come the terrain changed suddenly and the vehicle started moving by itself? From what I could make out, the driver did try to move the vehicle to the right side, while the "man with the white cap" was doing a Satyagraha in front of the vehicle. The Satyagrahi got all irritated by the move, ran off to get a stone and dump it on the bonnet. So it was not a case of just revving up the engine. But I can understand that the driver was trying to get away as he knew that things were going bad to worse, and his family's safety became more important.
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Old 26th July 2015, 13:14   #379
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Default Re: Car convoy attacked in Ladakh by taxi mafia!

I went to Khardungla in 1977. There was hardly any Indian tourist then. But few pot smoking type foreigners. And how locals were 'looting' them even then! I saw a local selling a small 'damroo' (monkey talking drum) for Rs. 2500, must have costed no more than Rs. 20/- in sadar bazar of Delhi.

So these people who interact with tourists are used to extortion. Its in their blood.

And how they revere a foreign tourist and have only disdain for an indian tourist! Mind you that they don't think themselves as Indians. Jealousy also plays a major part in later, when they see indians driving SUVs with their families. Well, that is their call. I don't wish to argue with it.

Also its dangerous to go to Ladakh since Indian Penal Code does not apply there. If a criminal incident happens, Police are not going to help. I will not drive and holiday in an area in India where Central Govt. has no real power for common criminal activites. Or where i can't call someone in Delhi power structure to straighten out the culprits.

What i want to underline is the fact that we ourselves are giving undeserved importance to Ladhak. Most of the travel sites have special sections/guides only for Ladhak.

In strictly my personal opinion, i never went back to Ladhak after 1978. I'm not sure i will enjoy a landscape of only snow and stones bereft of any greenery at all. I don't think the landscape is rugged - Its rather horrific and dangerous. There is no bravado for me in driving down those dirty icy tracts.

IMHO, this slinging match is not going to take away business from Ladakh. If we want to do something, we need to promote other destinations. For example Derma Valley in Uttrakhand. Or Nanda Devi Sanctuary in Garwhal. Kinnaur is more beautiful than Ladhak with many unexplored lakes more soothing than pangong tso. Chitkul in itself a better destination for non-professional off roading.

There are hundreds of beautiful green/snowy places in India besides J&K/Ladakh. Places where you can spend exquisite quality time with your family and friends. Lets explore and write about those places. Good luck to ladhak and its taxiwalas.

I would 'love' to see a JK10 taxi in Delhi and 'talk' to its occupants.

Last edited by Eddy : 26th July 2015 at 16:52. Reason: Off topic & Sweeping generalisation bit edited out
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Old 26th July 2015, 13:29   #380
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Default Re: Car convoy attacked in Ladakh by taxi mafia!

Everybody is a tiger in their own terrain - problem arises when tiger tries to be anything but a wet cat when elsewhere especially if there is another stronger element present.

Now, to facts - there were 5 private unregistered "off-roading" groups in and around Ladakh around that time, reportedly carrying a mix of paying passengers as well as self-operators, mid July'15, all are apparently being looked into for adherences to State and National laws. People in off-roaders can not just go anywhere, private or public, and do what they want. That includes the Nubra dunes. Especially.

The statement made that an Army person did something to the elderly gent in white cap is also being re-confirmed, and if found false, will be taken further. Message in this set, go look it up.

The MVA uses the term "public place", where public has access, which includes campuses and gated communities - it also includes airport airside, for example, and seaports dockside, which is why motor vehicles have to be registered to ply there. Road users are as liable and accountable inside IIT-Delhi or AIIMSc, for example, as they are on Outer Ring Road or Ring Road in Delhi.

The concept of a "citizen's arrest" when a crime has been suspected to have been committed or has been committed is an established point in Indian law. If anybody holds a fleeing criminal till the law arrives, that person is not held culpable of a crime, which in my estimation is what the taxi-drivers were doing. The stones came out as a defence, reasonable or otherwise is not for us to decide, only after the suspects tried to flee despite being stopped in a public place in broad daylight.

The reality of this is not going to go away because some people think they can get away with flouting laws and then when stopped, try to misuse social media selectively.
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Old 26th July 2015, 13:32   #381
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Default Re: Car convoy attacked in Ladakh by taxi mafia!

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Originally Posted by sachinpk View Post
The vehicle was all stationary for around 40 seconds before that. So how come the terrain changed suddenly and the vehicle started moving by itself?
Did you account for the possibility he may have engaged brakes (like most sane drivers do) while stationary, then realized the situation getting ugly and released brakes to move as soon as he spotted an opening? The vehicle may have moved a bit, but if you believe the movement was intentional, why do you think he didn't just floor the gas pedal when he noticed the guys picking up rocks, or even before when they were trying to topple the car?

Why wait for an opening if the intent was to move irrespective of consequences? Make no mistake, he did floor it when he got a clear opening to escape the mob!

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Originally Posted by malq View Post
The concept of a "citizen's arrest" when a crime has been suspected to have been committed or has been committed is an established point in Indian law. If anybody holds a fleeing criminal till the law arrives, that person is not held culpable of a crime, which in my estimation is what the taxi-drivers were doing. The stones came out as a defence, reasonable or otherwise is not for us to decide, only after the suspects tried to flee despite being stopped in a public place in broad daylight.

The reality of this is not going to go away because some people think they can get away with flouting laws and then when stopped, try to misuse social media selectively.
So now you're claiming the taxi union was trying to apprehend the Fortuner driver until police arrived? And you believe it was justified to throw stones INSIDE a vehicle to detain an errant driver?

You started off with a reasonable post, but have now moved so far off-topic on a tangent I doubt you even realize what the debate is all about any more. Your interpretation of law isn't THE LAW, and thankfully so.

Last edited by Chetan_Rao : 26th July 2015 at 13:46.
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Old 26th July 2015, 13:34   #382
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And when did "destroying others property" become a right? How does it matter whether it is cognizable or not? It is illegal. Nobody can touch my private property irrespective of what title it carries, what is improper, what inside it is not in order inside etc.

If there are issues with any of the above, the respective enforcement authorities can be called to take action. Not done on your own.

Why are people even trying to justify such actions. Many kids in this vehicles can still be in trauma and will never want to visit this region in their future.

I've been trying to convince my parents to visit this place. What would they have thought if they were in one of these cars.

Mob lynching is illegal and this was a case of mob trying to teach a lesson.

My next trip has just moved, excluding Leh and the routes around. Unfortunately the region will still continue to attract visitors but that is not a result of this over friendly mob. It is just because these really nasty people (referring only to this taxi mafia and all other like minded people) happen to be in that region.

I have had many positive experiences in the Ladakh region and with Ladakhi people including one incident where a Ladakhi cop refuses bribe and says he's just doing his job and then let's me go because his boss let another police vehicle go up during a down convoy on the Zozila pass.

I'm willing to join any movement to clear these messy ideas out of the localites, please include me in any such plans if there is one happening.
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Old 26th July 2015, 13:48   #383
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Originally Posted by sachinpk View Post
Please double check the video you have posted. You had not just revved the engine but moved the vehicle. Keeping a pole on the left side of the vehicle as the reference point, we can clearly identify the vehicle had moved.
Too difficult to comprehend this observation. Slight movement of the vehicle that too after the attack started. (Notice the vibrations). And you could also see that the vehicle is stopped immediately after the person falls on ground. The braking is evident.


Two additional point to note here is
1. He has mentioned he was revving, so obviously he must have released the brakes.

2. The situation was tense and we can easily assume the attacks started happening from the sides/rear (we see only vibrations/jerks while nothing happens in front view).

That slight movement could be due to terrain, or a calculated move to escape. But he has braked as soon as the man with cap falls on ground. There is no provocative movements further until he picks up stone.

Last edited by Holyghost : 26th July 2015 at 14:02.
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Old 26th July 2015, 13:51   #384
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Default Re: Car convoy attacked in Ladakh by taxi mafia!

Just now read some of the posts of T-BHP'ians reaction to the video. As much as the video shocked me, I am also shocked by some of the posts and the "thank givers" to the posts justifying the locals' acts and asking for more "proof" that the driver was actually innocent!

I don't think of any better way to protect my relatives/family other than zooming out of the situation. They would have done much more damage had he stopped to 'negotiate'. The fact that they tried to snatch the car's key proves that they wanted to harass the occupants, nothing else!! The act is the epitome of illiteracy and hooliganism.

If I missed this, isn't it possible that the leading car which was allowed to pass might be a local vehicle?

-Bhargav

Last edited by Octane_Power : 26th July 2015 at 13:54.
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Old 26th July 2015, 13:52   #385
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The local people know very well that their future in tourism lies more with environmentally sound tourism than with a few off-roaders tearing up the Nubra Valley. Next is what, people will want to drive their vehicles, rented or otherwise, at Valley of the Flowers or Nanda Devi sanctuary? Interesting to note how online videos of identifiable vehicles tearing up the Nubra dunes and the plants growing there are rapidly vanishing from youtube and elsewhere.

Everything is documented - which private property or state/national forests people and their vehicles entered, parked in, set up tents and over-nighted without permissions, and then left documented garbage behind.

Certainly there are many beautiful, green, snowy places in India. Keep them that way. Keep those loud, over-powered and polluting motor vehicles out unless you have specific permissions.

And if stopped by a citizen's arrest in India, when there is no immediate danger, in broad daylight with multiple vehicles from the same group ahead and behind, then stop. Call the police. Don't try to run over the people who stopped you.

Bottomline is this. India is free, but that does not mean we are free to wreck havoc in somebody else's backyard. Don't like the local people for whatever reason - don't come.

As far as the taximen's union is concerned, their website shows the rates chargeable, and the web is full of people appreciating their services. If anybody has a complaint, file one with the local authorities, don't try and run over the local population.
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Old 26th July 2015, 14:06   #386
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The local people know very well that their future in tourism lies more with environmentally sound tourism than with a few off-roaders tearing up the Nubra Valley. Next is what, people will want to drive their vehicles, rented or otherwise, at Valley of the Flowers or Nanda Devi sanctuary? Interesting to note how online videos of identifiable vehicles tearing up the Nubra dunes and the plants growing there are rapidly vanishing from youtube and elsewhere.

Everything is documented - which private property or state/national forests people and their vehicles entered, parked in, set up tents and over-nighted without permissions, and then left documented garbage behind.
Curiously, NONE of the eco-conscious peace-lovers you allude to have done anything with this widespread documented 'evidence'. They're apparently more than happy to fleece 'outsiders' for every penny they can squeeze, and are now suddenly distraught at the havoc wreaked by these 'louts and boors' in their backyard, when their hooliganism is caught on video and made public?

Since you love 'facts', here's one for you: The only person in this whole sordid saga who has actually approached the police so far is the Fortuner driver, NOT the hooligans. Wonder why that is?

Last edited by Chetan_Rao : 26th July 2015 at 14:08.
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Old 26th July 2015, 14:07   #387
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Originally Posted by sachinpk View Post
The vehicle was all stationary for around 40 seconds before that. So how come the terrain changed suddenly and the vehicle started moving by itself? From what I could make out, the driver did try to move the vehicle to the right side, while the "man with the white cap" was doing a Satyagraha in front of the vehicle. The Satyagrahi got all irritated by the move, ran off to get a stone and dump it on the bonnet. So it was not a case of just revving up the engine. But I can understand that the driver was trying to get away as he knew that things were going bad to worse, and his family's safety became more important.
If you watch the video, do you see the car shaking. The driver panicked when they started hitting the car. Natural thing to do when there are wife and kids in the car. If anything, I would say he showed a lot of restraint.
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Old 26th July 2015, 14:10   #388
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A quick question, gentlemen. The white gypsy was it part of the convoy? Because I did see that vehicle stopped a bit further ahead and starts moving as soon as the Fortuner has made his escape.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chetan_Rao
Did you account for the possibility he may have engaged brakes (like most sane drivers do) while stationary, then realized the situation getting ugly and released brakes to move as soon as he spotted an opening?
That possibility does not change things on the ground. The driver released the hand brakes, in order to get going (to save his life). So the intention was to move forward. The other possibility is the crowd trying to push the vehicle into moving, which is not the case at all. So the driver did not just revv up the engine, but did make an attempt to move. Please note: I am only trying to say that the Fortuner did not just revv up the engine (to scare the crowd), but actually moved the vehicle. The reasons why he did it, is for his safety.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HolyGhost
Too difficult to comprehend this observation. Slight movement of the vehicle that too after the attack started. (Notice the vibrations). And you could also see that the vehicle is stopped immediately after the person falls on ground.
0:56: The vehicle has come to a halt, you can see a pole on the left side of the vehicle. With 3-4 people also in between the vehicle, can we assume that the pole and the vehicle would be at least 4-5 distance apart?
0:58: The vehicle shows every intention of moving. The people in front start banging on the bonnets and throwing tantrums. The vehicle has also swerved to the right (perhaps to get into the main road).
1:01: The pole which was there on the left has now been completely invisible. The vehicle has crossed that point, and has swerved more to the right. The "man with the white cap" has fallen down, or have lied down in front the vehicle as a Satyagrahi.

So if you notice, it is not a slight movement or revving up of the engine. The vehicle seems to have moved at least 4-5 feet, but I guess the driver could not move further ahead because the Satyagrahi is lying down.

Quote:
Originally Posted by malq
Everything is documented - which private property or state/national forests people and their vehicles entered, parked in, set up tents and over-nighted without permissions, and then left documented garbage behind.
Is there a web site which has this information? Then please share the link here. I feel there would be a middle path out here. There could be mistakes from both sides.

Last edited by sachinpk : 26th July 2015 at 14:14.
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Old 26th July 2015, 14:12   #389
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Boss, you're talking utter nonsense. I'm inclined to think of a business interest with the taxi guys,the way you're carrying on. These goons have no proof of anything that was done, and just like you, they're on Fb pages too, extrapolating the situation to ridiculous extents. In the span of a couple of months, they've realized that first it was the rentals going everywhere, killing everything. Then added the private vehicles as well. The only skill these drivers have is a lax administration which babied them, and is still reassuring them falsely that all will be well.
Please, the cabbies want sustainable tourism. Get a grip. They're the bigger threat. Who takes their cars on the frozen lake? Look it up.
I'll come out and say it. The taxi guys have been caught out, and it's acknowledged that each and everyone of them will try and cheat you. Look that up as well.

If there is any proof, bring it up, like Ashnd did, else stop trolling the thread.

Whether it's in leh, or Gurgaon, if my family is in a car with me, and I'm stopped forcibly by non authority figures, I will try and get away. If someone tries to snatch my keys, throw stones, break my windows, I will run over them, and if need be, run them over again to keep my family safe.

Last edited by mayankk : 26th July 2015 at 14:14.
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Old 26th July 2015, 14:13   #390
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......

And if stopped by a citizen's arrest in India, when there is no immediate danger, in broad daylight with multiple vehicles from the same group ahead and behind, then stop. Call the police. Don't try to run over the people who stopped you........
Yeah.

And imagine a Panipat toll attendant calls a Haryana 'local' citizen group the moment a JK10 taxi enters NCR (with a patient for AIIMS) for a "citizen's arrest when there is no immediate danger, in broad daylight". Then stop. And try to call Haryana Police who will be explained and briefed by the local group that only Ranbir Penal Code applies to the JK10 taxi!

Last edited by DwarkaDelhiWala : 26th July 2015 at 14:14.
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