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Old 26th July 2015, 20:17   #421
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Default Re: Car convoy attacked in Ladakh by taxi mafia!

It's simple. I support Ladakh's ecology. I plan to spare (not boycott) Ladakh for the next 5 years so that I don't drive any vehicle which pollutes the environment. For the same reason, I prefer not to hire a taxi either, to contribute my portion to saving the environment. Dear taxi union, I'll come to Ladakh when you are matured enough to see me as a fellow Indian & can treat me with respect.

Hope this 5 years is a good time for you to realize that high handedness is NOT a way of living. In the mean time, I'll find under rated & less crowded destinations in India where my fellow travellers & I feel safe & will happily contribute to their economy. I love India because I have too many destinations to choose from.

Last edited by swiftnfurious : 26th July 2015 at 20:20.
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Old 26th July 2015, 21:12   #422
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jaysmokesleaves View Post
Guys, Malq is just trolling here.
There is no clarification in any of his posts, to any of the arguments brought up by anyone here.

Just baseless trolling and garnering free footage.

I agree with Akshay. Its best to ignore him.
Lets not do that. Every fellow members should be given same space.
Atleast with these responses, we got to know the mindset of people who support the acts of taxi goons who attacked the convoy.
Let him come up with his own views, facts and reasoning. Even if it doesn't make any sense, as long as he is not violating any rules here, let us welcome his comments. This thread wouldn't have been the same without those responses.
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Old 26th July 2015, 23:18   #423
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Originally Posted by malq View Post
Local people have to get first priority. Everywhere. Outsiders are welcome to take their tourism elsewhere if that is how it evolves. Look at your private driving licences carefully - does it allow you to drive rental self-drive cars on an all-India basis or only in the State of registration of the said rental self-drive car?

I have friends in the tourism business, summers Ladakh, winters Goa. From them I hear - we don't want such boorish tourists. The lot here don't want to go to Ladakh anymore. Seems like a fit to me. Both will survive without each other.

Damage to property is one thing. Trying to endanger another person's life by trying to run over him is something else. That answers the dashcam footage, shown so far, and obviously just a very short clip of something much longer.

Wake up and smell the coffee. Ladakh will survive the absence of a few dozen self-drive tourists who appear to be more aggressive about their perceived "rights" basis a minute of a dashcam footage which appears to be muted. Let's get a look at the complete footage?

And.

Don't be surprised when more footage surfaces from outside the vehicle too.
1) So, assuming I do drive a self rental car to Leh Ladakh, will you think its justified for the locals to beat me and smash the car?

2) I know many indian tourists are boorish in their behaviour, the question is do you have any knowledge of any sort of boorish behaviour or any provocation of any sort in this specific instance?

3) Assuming it was definitely boorish behaviour, do you personally think its justified in throwing rocks on the car and/or beating the occupants?

4) What exactly is the extent of your relationship with the Taxi union? Is it just friendship or is there any sort of business relationship or personal relationship that might be influencing your opinion in this matter?

5) While Leh Ladakh (like any other place) will continue to thrive even in the absence of a few motorheads, is that even a desirable outcome? Would it not be better to have a warm friendly atmosphere where both tourists and locals benefit from each other, rather than the current hostile environment?

Will be awaiting your replies to my queries.
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Old 27th July 2015, 00:14   #424
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Default Re: Car convoy attacked in Ladakh by taxi mafia!

Phrase: "Wake up and smell the coffee" - usage: informal. To become aware of the realities of a situation, however unpleasant

The gentleman who quoted this earlier had me cracking up haha.


Negative sentiment (especially on social media) spreads like wild fire and its ability to influence the actions of many should never be underestimated. Several brands /products across the world have failed miserably because of negative backlash from consumers. Make no mistake - Ladakh IS a brand.


Hope someone from J&K tourism "Wakes up and smells the coffee" and realizes that they have a marketing disaster at hand. Its not just the posters here on Team bhp who will give ladakh a skip. They have the ability to influence several others, who in turn will discourage others and so on. Its just how the modern world functions. This article has already gone viral on social media. Its only a matter of time when it starts getting discussed on Mainstream media (if it already isn't).


Also hope some smart (?) head from the Ladakh adminstration steps in, issues an apology for the violence and starts discussing steps to mitigate the situation.


On a separate note, I'd like to draw a parallel here. When the market was opened up a few years ago allowing entry of big players into organized retail, it drew in several big corporate participants - Big Bazaar, More Mega Store etc. The local kirana stores protested all over the country initially saying it would affect their business. But its not like the little kirana shops lost all their business overnight. They have found ways to compete with the big players. My local kirana guy does free home delivery . He doesn't charge me extra for a plastic bag. He gives me a cash discount if I buy in bulk. I've had conversations with kirana store owners in other parts of the country and each of them are doing different things to stay competitive. Its not like they got together, created a union and randomly passed a resolution that bans the competition. Its survival of the SMARTEST.

Last edited by loki : 27th July 2015 at 00:30.
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Old 27th July 2015, 06:30   #425
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Default Re: Car convoy attacked in Ladakh by taxi mafia!

Flattery will get you everywhere. Thank you all for presenting me with what some appear to think are superhuman skills. Actually, is just that I choose to look at a problem as a series of possible solution, and the tool used includes a root cause analysis.

So -

# Ignoring the people who are getting personal in their attacks. Also ignoring those using Nazi language.

# Still waiting for a response on why the audio was muted by the original thread starter and person involved. As well as previous dashcam recordings as applicable.

# Also ignoring the miniscule minority threatening not to go to Ladakh. It is likely that Ladakh shall benefit by their absence, and the absentees shall not be missed.

# Some here have understood the references to the MVA and larger motor vehicles (bigger than 5+1) not being considered "motor cars" and how it impacts rental self-drive. 'Permit' is not "driving licence" and certainly not a licence to take a car, whether private or on self-drive, and then sub-let passenger space on payment, hire or reward. As I said, there are 5 groups which were there at the same time.

# The issue of who did what first and where is important. Why take just one incident selectively, of trying to escape after trying to run over a human being, and then trying to generate protest online, again selectively? The RPC shall decide.

# In a democracy, it is what the people who vote who will decide. And as far as local road transport is concerned, if the local people decide they do not want private motor vehicles or outside commercial vehicles operating in their domain, except under certain conditions as well as under strict adherences to every act, rule, law and executive order possible, then that is what shall prevail because road transport is a State subject, albeit on the concurrent list.

# As I have said before regarding my direct comments here, if it fits, wear it. Freedom does not mean lack of accountability. If many of you who choose to wish to or do visit Ladakh do or did not know that the Ranbir Penal Code is applicable in J&K, then it is your short-coming.

As on date, the number of tourists who appear to be more than satisfied with the services of taxi operators in Ladakh is enough and their rates are published online, what more do people want?

People who want answers from me are best advised to ask politely, and make one question paper, it is difficult to answer. Just as I do not generalise everybody at this website, it is not acceptable to me that everybody claims to be the voice of this website.

The one added input I have here is that the issue appears to be not closed. And that one should not be swayed by only one side of the story.

Last edited by GTO : 27th July 2015 at 11:07. Reason: WATCH THE TONE. Do NOT personally attack the members of this forum. Final warning
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Old 27th July 2015, 07:08   #426
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Default Car convoy attacked in Ladakh by taxi mafia!

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Originally Posted by malq View Post
Flattery will get you everywhere. Thank you all for presenting me with what some appear to think are superhuman skills. Actually, is just that I choose to look at...
I think you are flattering yourself. Pretty much everyone else sees you for what you are.

Quote:
# Ignoring the people who are getting personal in their attacks. Also ignoring those using Nazi language.
What about those who *stood up for you* when Nazi language was used, despite not agreeing with a word you said? You're being amazingly selective in what you take away from this whole discussion.
Quote:
# Still waiting for a response on why the audio was muted by the original thread starter and person involved. As well as previous dashcam recordings as applicable.
Asked and answered. Dash cam muting is a minor issue. Even assuming the driver of the Fortuner *did* hurl racist invective at those who stopped him, they had no right to illegally detain him and his family. The "self defense" theory is laughable. You don't "defend" yourself by smashing a huge stone down on the bonnet of the car that allegedly tried to run you over. Which incidentally isn't at all obvious in the video as you claim.
Quote:
# Also ignoring the miniscule minority threatening not to go to Ladakh. It is likely that Ladakh shall benefit by their absence, and the absentees shall not be missed.
I wouldn't be so cocky if I were you. My own case is an example: I visited Ladakh in 2011 but it was a fly-in/fly-out 6-day trip that only covered the touristy spots. Had every intention of driving there myself for a long and leisurely visit- since I don't own an SUV, it would have to be in a friend's car or a self-drive rental. In the current hostile environment, I don't see myself doing this. Trust me it's your loss. There ARE alternatives to Ladakh you know. A group of friends for example is now planning to visit Mongolia instead: fly to Ulan Bator, rent a Landcruiser and rough it out for two weeks.
Quote:
# Some here have understood the references to the MVA and larger motor vehicles (bigger than 5+1) not being considered "motor cars" and how it impacts rental self-drive. 'Permit' is not "driving licence" and certainly not a licence to take a car, whether private or on self-drive, and then sub-let passenger space on payment, hire or reward. As I said, there are 5 groups which were there at the same time.
Vague insinuations of alleged minor (and they *are* minor) motor vehicle regulations will get you nowhere. The thread starter has made a serious allegation: damage to personal property and attempted murder, with some evidence to back his claim. IPC or RPC shouldn't matter.
Quote:
# The issue of who did what first and where is important. Why take just one incident selectively, of trying to escape after trying to run over a human being, and then trying to generate protest online, again selectively? The RPC shall decide.
There's a saying I use often that fits the current situation perfectly: if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it IS a duck. Think about it.
Quote:

# In a democracy, it is what the people who vote who will decide. And as far as local road transport is concerned, if the local people decide they do not want private motor vehicles or outside commercial vehicles operating in their domain, except under certain conditions as well as under strict adherences to every act, rule, law and executive order possible, then that is what shall prevail because road transport is a State subject, albeit on the concurrent list.
Oh goodie! The old "democracy" argument- was wondering when that would rear its head. What the taxi mafia (and I use the word deliberately) is doing is imposing its own narrow vision on the rest of the world. That's got nothing to do with democracy or state vs centre or any of the Grade VIII Civics lessons you're throwing at us here!
Quote:
# As I have said before regarding my direct comments here, if it fits, wear it. Freedom does not mean lack of accountability. If many of you who choose to wish to or do visit Ladakh do or did not know that the Ranbir Penal Code is applicable in J&K, then it is your short-coming.
Doesn't fit, nope...not even close!
Quote:
As on date, the number of tourists who appear to be more than satisfied with the services of taxi operators in Ladakh is enough and their rates are published online, what more do people want?
Stupid argument. If someone steals your stuff, for example, and I tell you, millions of people never have their stuff stolen, so why are you complaining? would you accept that?!!
Quote:
People who want answers from me are best advised to ask politely, and make one question paper, it is difficult to answer. Just as I do not generalise everybody at this website, it is not acceptable to me that everybody claims to be the voice of this website.
You seem to be defending the indefensible. Maybe you should pause and reflect why everyone here is "howling" almost without exception. Even those like me who were neutral at the outset are fast running out of patience. If you have anything new to add, or indeed want to respond to some of the pointed queries people have made, please do so. Otherwise I am leaning towards the popular opinion on this thread myself- that you are a troll.
Quote:
The one added input I have here is that the issue appears to be not closed. And that one should not be swayed by only one side of the story.
I agree- the issue is far from closed. It has a lot of potential impact on the future of tourism in Ladakh.

Last edited by GTO : 27th July 2015 at 11:08. Reason: Quoted post edited
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Old 27th July 2015, 08:14   #427
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Default Re: Car convoy attacked in Ladakh by taxi mafia!

By 'passing' the unlawful and illegal resolution and attacking, damaging and injuring several privately-owned, self-driven rental cars and their passengers, Ladakh taxi mafia at one stroke killed the proverbial goose that laid the golden eggs. Hope, the concerned state and central government authorities will awake from their deep slumber and take immediate needful actions to undo the unlawful things and restore normalcy.
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Old 27th July 2015, 08:29   #428
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Team BHP being unnecessarily drawn into this controversy?
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Old 27th July 2015, 08:29   #429
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@ Today's Deccan Chronicle (Hyderabad Edition).
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Old 27th July 2015, 09:17   #430
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Default Re: Car convoy attacked in Ladakh by taxi mafia!

Good that this incident is getting the coverage it deserves nationwide. Now people will actually wake up to the reality. Hope the 'Babus' also wake up soon and take some concrete action.
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Old 27th July 2015, 09:37   #431
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If anybody thinks that this isn't going to affect the number of tourists going to Ladakh, then they are in for a rude awakening. Almost everyone who visits Ladakh googles about the place and the spots. These savvy tourists, including me, are boycotting the region till the time these people know that your livelihood (well, most if it) runs because of tourists. Yes I said it! The benefits of tourism accrues to more than 90% of Ladakhis. Its a documented fact. Ask for the link and I shall provide it.

Regarding the ecological impact, wherever there are humans, the ecology will be affected. We are no longer a part of the ecology in the same way other species are.

Let this news spread like a wildfire and when the tap shuts close, you can have all your taxi unions and your Innovas for yourself.

If protecting your livelihood can make you attack those who run it then when it comes to protecting my family and friends, the least I can do is give the place a cold shoulder. I might be rude but its the about the family.
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Old 27th July 2015, 10:37   #432
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I hope someone sane from the region is trying to do something about this. I dont think the revenue loss from self drive rental cars is that much to affect the taxi drivers. They might not be liking the fact that even self owned cars are being used to drive there.

At the end of it, it doesn't look good to be having such animosity towards fellow countrymen and these guys are talked to by someone in administration.
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Old 27th July 2015, 10:52   #433
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HVSC
The benefits of tourism accrues to more than 90% of Ladakhis. Its a documented fact. Ask for the link and I shall provide it.
Please share the link. As I said earlier, we would have to wait for the current tourist season to get over to actually know the reality. My understanding is as soon as heavy snow falls start in October, the tourist season is considered to be closed. We will have to wait till then and see if there are any panic reports coming in from Ladakh tourism department or from the Taxi unions.

How ever I have my own doubts on whether this tourist boycott would become a success.

1. I don't think any place would rely too much on any industry which only works for 5-6 month a year. Ladakh, I feel has become more popular may be in the last 10 years with more people finding it easier way to go there. But the Ladakhis survived in the same place even before, when the terrains were much more tougher. Can these 10 years bring up a whole generation of people who are lazy, and now cannot look beyond "tourism industry" to work for? My gut feeling is that since tourism is very seasonal here, pretty much every local would have found some ways and means to survive during the non-tourist season as well.

2. Tourism, and implementation of motor vehicle rules etc. are under the jurisdiction of the states as well. So if the state government really wants, they can take the complaints from taxi unions and make rules and laws favourable to them. For a Jammu and Kashmir politician the crucial point is that - taxi union members vote in the state elections, tourists who come once in a while do NOT vote. If I was such a politician, I would know which side to favour . Even Central Government cannot do much here, and kind of step-over the state government. So that is why I felt that complaining to the PM on his official web site, etc. may not bring in any much effect.

3. Ladakh as we all know is India's border. We have a sizeable number of our defence personnel there. The base camps (and alternate route) to places like Siachen Glacier lies in Ladakh. Right across the himalayan plains are our "friendly neighbour" China. Keeping this in mind, the central government would not take any harsh steps which would antagonise/irritate the local population. With the unrest in Kashmiri, government would not want another trouble in hand by making Ladakhis start hating India. The defence forces and the central government have even raised special military units (Ladakh Scouts, Into Tibetan Border Police etc.) with recruitment mainly from Ladakh side. This gives gainful employment to the Ladakhis, India gets a reliable force who are loyal as well as very much used to the harsh terrains of the Himalayan mountains. I don't think Central Government would just make all these efforts go waste, and bring in very harsh measures which would irritate the Ladakhis. Especially considering that the other party are mere tourists, who would be way down the priority chain.

At present perhaps we can expect some action taken against the goons who attacked the vehicle. But that again, only if the victim lodges an FIR, and the police is willing to take up action. Or else courts have to intervene and push the police. But if the victims are not in a mood to follow up, the case may soon get thrown out due to lack of evidence etc. But if the taxi unions really press for it, the state may amend the state specific Motor Vehicle rules to have some form of entry tax etc. etc. That would legalise the whole thing.

Last edited by Rehaan : 29th July 2015 at 17:23. Reason: Adding line spacing for readability + rephrasing 3rd point.
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Old 27th July 2015, 11:47   #434
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Tourism isn't the whole & sole livelihood for Ladakhis, and the vast majority of peaceful Ladakhis who probably don't even have any links to tourism (which has only picked up in the last decade or so) probably won't even be affected at all.

It's the greedy minority that saw an opportunity to make a quick buck through tourism(when it opened up) that will bear the brunt of this backlash, and given the levels they've demostrated they can stoop to, I can't really sympathize with them.

As for the ecological fallout, I'll wholeheartedly agree with the peaceful Ladakhis minding their own business and not wanting the peace and balance disturbed. If that means I don't get to visit their beautiful homeland, it's a small price I'm willing to pay.

To the violent idiots claiming to represent the whole community, you deserve everything you get.

P.S. Be very interesting to know how many of these taxi operators turned 'eco-crusaders' actually resisted when travel restrictions were lifted from the Ladakh region. Most of them were probably too busy buying taxis and queuing up for 'cheap today, crippling tomorrow' loans to notice the eco-hazards posed by unrestricted tourism.

As usual, it's the peaceful majority that gets a bad name while the violent minority goes about creating a mess.

Last edited by Chetan_Rao : 27th July 2015 at 12:04.
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Old 27th July 2015, 11:49   #435
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Default Re: Car convoy attacked in Ladakh by taxi mafia!

When visiting a touristy location in the hills, like Ladakh or Sikkim, i would always plan to use services of local taxi. I would not be confident to drive in the hills, and value the local knowledge and experience.

There is a different set of folks for whom this is a trip they would do in their own or self-driven rental cars. It doesn't mean all of them are driving their vehicles into the lake(s). If there are some folks damaging the ecology or indulging in irresponsible driving, apply the RPC/IPC on them by all means.

When we went to Kashmir few years ago, we rented a taxi from airport-to-airport. It was a great trip. However, when we reached Pahalgam, came to know that only local taxis would be allowed to operate. This means we ended up double-paying. Now that was irritating, but forgotten in the beauty of the location. Certainly not a deal-breaker.

However, this is a completely different ball game. Throwing stones and attacking private vehicle with iron rods, endangering people's lives and property is completely unacceptable behavior. What is worse is the justifications being given - under the garb of ecology, protecting local economy etc. The local taxi union(s) are not realizing the gravity of this incident.

In summary, I have always wanted to go to Ladakh, but with attitude like this i am going to stay away [even though i have no plans to self-drive]. My family's safety is priority - today they are going after outside vehicles, tomorrow one wonders what it will be. I will rather go to other locations where tourists are not blatantly attacked in daylight.

Last edited by akj123 : 27th July 2015 at 12:08. Reason: grammar.
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