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Old 27th July 2015, 15:35   #451
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Default Re: Car convoy attacked in Ladakh by taxi mafia!

In my opinion Ladakh (location) or no Ladakh is secondary, people have survived there in the past (when there was hardly any tourism).

The reason I say Ladakh (location) is secondary is because this happens all over our country. Ladakh is much more dearer and each trip gets a lot of attention and is easily the most desired destination for many.

Goa is a very good example, similarly for Karnataka as well, people who have traveled on Chorla ghat would have seen the plain clothes excise inspectors who block the road asking to check the vehicle for liquor.
Its very difficult to say whether they are actually from excise or whatever.

The main issue is the violence meted out to the travelers.

In the last 8-10 pages in the thread we have been arguing and debating all over the place.
The OP and the rest of the convoy has sufficient support (from this forum as well as on other social mediums) and rightly so with the visible evidence provided by them.

What is not clear is where do they want to go from here? We are all providing justifications/explanations etc. and this can go on for a very long time.

What Silverwood is doing is on a much larger subject (correct me if wrong), but this incident in particular needs to handled and escalated as well.

My suggestion for the convoy members would be to prepare a complaint for acknowledged submission to the SP - Leh on the below

- Chronological order of events and detailed itinerary (Delhi - Leh - Delhi)
- All discussions / altercations / issues faced
- All video/photographic evidence available
- All documented damages suffered (automobile as well as physical in case)
- First hand account from all members of the convoy

Has this already been done, asking since I didn't find any mention of the same.
This would help things move logically and prevent unnecessary discussions and dilution/questioning of facts.

This would also help prevent any such issues again, failure to file a complaint is what promotes and more often leads to a repeat of such violence, an aura of invincibility - this should not happen.

I doubt if any travelers in the past have filed a formal complaint resulting in 'peaceful protests' becoming more and more violent and dangerous in nature.

Cheers!
Trojan

Last edited by Trojan : 27th July 2015 at 15:36.
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Old 27th July 2015, 15:47   #452
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Default Re: Car convoy attacked in Ladakh by taxi mafia!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trojan
My suggestion for the convoy members would be to prepare a complaint for acknowledged submission to the SP - Leh on the below
Exactly. Getting an FIR registered is the first process. The victims had tried that right after the incident, but they were kind of misleaded by talking about the Ranbir Penal Code etc. etc. An FIR has to be filed, it can be even done through registered post with acknowledgement. E-Mails are still not accepted. This needs to be done, and perhaps a couple of visits to the SP Office and/or the Magistrate court may be required. It is these kind of visits to the local police stations and local jurisdictional courts which stops many long distance travellers from complaining.
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Old 27th July 2015, 18:26   #453
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Default Re: Car convoy attacked in Ladakh by taxi mafia!

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Originally Posted by malq View Post
People who want answers from me are best advised to ask politely, and make one question paper, it is difficult to answer. Just as I do not generalise everybody at this website, it is not acceptable to me that everybody claims to be the voice of this website.

The one added input I have here is that the issue appears to be not closed. And that one should not be swayed by only one side of the story.
I did ask you 5 questions politely, and I'm still awaiting your replies. Can you oblige?

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/street...ml#post3763094
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Old 27th July 2015, 19:46   #454
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This is what HVK has to say,

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Additionally, a comment from him on the same post says-
"We advise 10-15 teams in Ladakh DAILY - all of them are well. None of the 200+ teams that we have already advised this season have faced any problems"

Source: https://m.facebook.com/events/583862264973360
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Old 27th July 2015, 20:06   #455
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Default Re: Car convoy attacked in Ladakh by taxi mafia!

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Originally Posted by Dry Ice View Post
Let them do it. At least there will not be any ambiguity left in that case. If people still choose to travel in outside taxis, they can do so by paying this 'tax'. But they should not be pelted stones if they travel in outside vehicles.

But, after seeing this episode, I don't think they would press for it. Entry tax will be applicable to all commercial vehicles, including the trucks that bring in supplies - all are not JK registered. Would it not increase the cost of everyday items in the state?

Secondly, there is an animosity even with intra state vehicles - for ex, a Srinagar/Jammu cab cannot do a local circuit in Leh. This entry tax will not be applicable to this JK vehicles. If they somehow devise a way to make it at a district level, then maybe, they can give it a lawful guise. Maybe by declaring the district some ecologically sensitive zone.
ITs already done. There is 400rs eco tax for Hanle area(few years back it was there). All outside vehicles had to pay it.

They can simply make it 10,000 or something, and then those who still choose to do these circuits can pay and do it.

They will need to maintain checkposts at Karu and Upshi and Khardungla to enforce it.
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Old 27th July 2015, 20:20   #456
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Default Re: Car convoy attacked in Ladakh by taxi mafia!

I thought long & hard about permanent solutions to this issue since the incident continues to bother me no end. From the TOI archives there is a reference to a CJM ruling about ALTOA on a similar episode last year. Another member had referenced it in post#125 of this thread.

Quote:
The CJM's order said, "I am shocked that the complainant who is also an Indian national has been forced to go through mental agony and torture for more than 15 days and the government agencies including police have slept over the matter. It appears to me that the police is in connivance with the ALTOA and its members. It is shocking to find that a private tour operator's association has demanded Rs 50,000 by issuing a written letter/order against the complainant and the police did not take cognizance of the matter."
Remarkably, even in last year's case police registered a FIR only one month after the incident.

I think the way forward to permanently address the root cause of this evil should be as follows:

1. Setup a core action team & start a formal communication campaign focussing on bureaucrats, key decision makers, members of the judiciary and other central govt teams in getting them onboard.

2. Since there is already a precedent and a CJM ruling, get two separate investigative tracks started by the relevant Central govt dept under MHA (IB, CBI?) - one establishing that the miscreants were indeed members of ALTOA acting on their behest and a second one to probe the nexus between local police & ALTOA.

3. Use the findings of these teams to permanently ban ALTOA as an illegal organisation and take action against the criminals in the local police department and ALTOA.

IMO, going only after the miscreants on the street would be just attacking the pawns of ALTOA and the real problem would remain, but of course they surely need to be held responsible for their actions. Maybe some of them can help testify against their 'bosses' for a reduced sentence etc.?

Of course I'm no expert in legal or govt affairs so maybe more knowledgable members would like to pitch in and help refine this plan of action?
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Old 27th July 2015, 21:17   #457
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Default Re: Car convoy attacked in Ladakh by taxi mafia!

I could see that the attack is mostly on self driven hired cars with non-HP and non-JK registration. To my great disappointment I saw some of the fellow BHPinas were partly justifying these hooligans.

Personally If I am going to a place I have no objection in using a local taxi to commute around the place. In fact I would prefer to use the local taxis, it has great advantages. Usually the taxi guys know a great deal about the locality and that knowledge can be very handy.

Leh is a totally different story. The idea of driving one's own car is actually to enjoy the drive. For me, the adventurous drive through Leh and its scary passes is more important than the scenic beauty of Leh. If we sit idle on a taxi taking no part in action then we are better off watching a video of Leh. If self driven cars hired cars are not allowed in Leh this driving pleasure will be denied to all those cannot afford to own a car.

Do they treat out-of-state registration private cars any differently ?
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Old 27th July 2015, 21:23   #458
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Default Re: Car convoy attacked in Ladakh by taxi mafia!

Quote:
Originally Posted by outofthebox
2. Since there is already a precedent and a CJM ruling, get two separate investigative tracks started by the relevant Central govt dept under MHA (IB, CBI?)
That is some "out of the box" thinking but it has some challenges . Intelligence Bureau is our (domestic) secret service agency. They would never get into a typical police investigation like this. They also generally do not actually take a case to the courts (directly), and do the prosecution job. For such tasks IB works with the local state police. IB off course may have got details of this whole incident (and even the debates happening on social media and else where) and given their assessment of the whole situation, to their higher ups through the proper channels.

The CBI has got an excellet FAQ which explains what they are to do. The state government has to formally request the central government to get the CBI involved (and CBI has to be agree). Or else the higher level courts (HC or SC) can order CBI to start investigation. I don't think CBI would get involved in a minor case - assault, affray etc. There is no loss of life, and very minimal loss of property (though the owner of the vehicle may feel other wise).

Best would be to actually get the FIR registered first, and then try for a court monitored investigation by a special unit of the state police (like Vigilance & Anti-corruption bureau) bye-passing the local police. J&K may have its own versions of Crime Branch CID etc., which is more common in the south.

Last edited by sachinpk : 27th July 2015 at 21:24.
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Old 27th July 2015, 23:35   #459
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Default Re: Car convoy attacked in Ladakh by taxi mafia!

Quote:
Originally Posted by malq View Post
Flattery will get you everywhere. Thank you all for presenting me with what some appear to think are superhuman skills. Actually, is just that I choose to look at a problem as a series of possible solution, and the tool used includes a root cause analysis.
I do not see any flattery directed towards you. I also fail to see anybody "presenting" you with any super-human skills, I thought it is the opposite. I also dont see any possible solution coming out of you other than "follow the hooligans' rule"



Quote:
Originally Posted by malq View Post

# Ignoring the people who are getting personal in their attacks. Also ignoring those using Nazi language.
I see nazi language only from you. You have made rest of India rather sub-human as compared to the esteemed Ladakhis. That is the basis of nazism.

Quote:
Originally Posted by malq View Post
# Still waiting for a response on why the audio was muted by the original thread starter and person involved. As well as previous dashcam recordings as applicable.
Still waiting for any shred of an evidence from you. You have gone on and on about cognizable offence (according to RPC, IPC, MVA and what not) leading to citizen's arrest. But, no evidence has come about from your side. Or is it that the RPC does not demand any proof from Ladakh Taxi Union?

Quote:
Originally Posted by malq View Post
# Also ignoring the miniscule minority threatening not to go to Ladakh. It is likely that Ladakh shall benefit by their absence, and the absentees shall not be missed.
Then why are you here? Let them call for boycott and you share a cigar with your taxi union friends.
Quote:
Originally Posted by malq View Post
# Some here have understood the references to the MVA and larger motor vehicles (bigger than 5+1) not being considered "motor cars" and how it impacts rental self-drive. 'Permit' is not "driving licence" and certainly not a licence to take a car, whether private or on self-drive, and then sub-let passenger space on payment, hire or reward. As I said, there are 5 groups which were there at the same time.
I really doubt you actually know about MVA. I would explain all that to you, but "you are best advised to ask politely". Also what is MVA really? It is in concurrent list and hence any taxi union can override it through diktats.
Quote:
Originally Posted by malq View Post
# The issue of who did what first and where is important. Why take just one incident selectively, of trying to escape after trying to run over a human being, and then trying to generate protest online, again selectively? The RPC shall decide..
If you see the driver of fortuner trying to run over a human being, then i see you personally firing a machine gun at the driver. (Perhaps, we both smoke the same thing?) Also why bring RPC into it? Ranbir Penal Code, Deepika Penal Code... who cares? Important thing is, taxi union guys are the torch bearers of truth.
Quote:
Originally Posted by malq View Post
# In a democracy, it is what the people who vote who will decide. And as far as local road transport is concerned, if the local people decide they do not want private motor vehicles or outside commercial vehicles operating in their domain, except under certain conditions as well as under strict adherences to every act, rule, law and executive order possible, then that is what shall prevail because road transport is a State subject, albeit on the concurrent list..
Such shallow definition of democracy ! What is the difference between mob-rule and democracy then? Well, I would explain it to you but, "you are best advised to ask politely".
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Originally Posted by malq View Post
# As I have said before regarding my direct comments here, if it fits, wear it. Freedom does not mean lack of accountability. If many of you who choose to wish to or do visit Ladakh do or did not know that the Ranbir Penal Code is applicable in J&K, then it is your short-coming.
I have never heard of wearing comments and hence I am unable to comprehend what you are saying. Also what the purpose of your lecture on freedom and accountability? Should we be accountable to the local taxi union whereever we go? And again why bring RBC into this?
Quote:
Originally Posted by malq View Post
As on date, the number of tourists who appear to be more than satisfied with the services of taxi operators in Ladakh is enough and their rates are published online, what more do people want?
What more do we want? We want to safely drive in our rented vehicles. I thought this thing was clear from the beginning. Publishing taxi rate is irrelevant to the discussions here.
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Originally Posted by malq View Post
People who want answers from me are best advised to ask politely, and make one question paper, it is difficult to answer. Just as I do not generalise everybody at this website, it is not acceptable to me that everybody claims to be the voice of this website.
I see numerous polite questions on this forum. It is not really the the lack of civility, is it? You just dont have any answers. That is why you have consistently refused to answer any question or present any evidence. And who claimed to be voice of this website?
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Old 28th July 2015, 00:06   #460
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Quote:
Originally Posted by schakravarthy View Post
This is what HVK has to say,

Additionally, a comment from him on the same post says-
"We advise 10-15 teams in Ladakh DAILY - all of them are well. None of the 200+ teams that we have already advised this season have faced any problems"

Source: https://m.facebook.com/events/583862264973360
That's really good to hear. Nobody should get into a bad situation so far from home. It still sounds like a risk for yellow plates and Tbhp stickers cars,though, tracking the #teambhp tag on facebook.
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Old 28th July 2015, 01:12   #461
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Default Re: Car convoy attacked in Ladakh by taxi mafia!

Quote:
Originally Posted by malq View Post
# Still waiting for a response on why the audio was muted by the original thread starter and person involved. As well as previous dashcam recordings as applicable.
My god, people have already justified the dash cam being mute. Why would someone keep the audio running in the dash cam when it records their conversation too ? And if the owner of the Dash cam intended to upload the videos of the scenic route, why would he want the conversation in the car to be part of it ? Isn't it just common sense ? If he knew someone was going to smash his car to tithers, he would have kept it on.

Quote:
Originally Posted by malq View Post
# Some here have understood the references to the MVA and larger motor vehicles (bigger than 5+1) not being considered "motor cars" and how it impacts rental self-drive. 'Permit' is not "driving licence" and certainly not a licence to take a car, whether private or on self-drive, and then sub-let passenger space on payment, hire or reward. As I said, there are 5 groups which were there at the same time.
Any proof of the same with Motor vehicle acts and their explanations? So you are saying a 7 seater Scorpio or a 8 seater Innova needs a different licence to drive eh ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by malq View Post
# The issue of who did what first and where is important. Why take just one incident selectively, of trying to escape after trying to run over a human being, and then trying to generate protest online, again selectively? The RPC shall decide.
So the actions of those goon taxi drivers is all right, but its reaction to save their own lives is not ?

Secondly, show me any part of the video where he has tried to run over a human being, please show me because I failed to find anything of that sort.

Quote:
Originally Posted by malq View Post
# In a democracy, it is what the people who vote who will decide. And as far as local road transport is concerned, if the local people decide they do not want private motor vehicles or outside commercial vehicles operating in their domain, except under certain conditions as well as under strict adherences to every act, rule, law and executive order possible, then that is what shall prevail because road transport is a State subject, albeit on the concurrent list.
And Ladakh is not a state and neither are the taxi drivers only inhabitants of Ladakh. Democracy would be when you make the entire province vote including non taxi drivers and all the locals, not just a selective group. Your definition of democracy is very narrow and selective.

Quote:
Originally Posted by malq View Post
As on date, the number of tourists who appear to be more than satisfied with the services of taxi operators in Ladakh is enough and their rates are published online, what more do people want?
People want a choice to see a part of India how they deem fit, in their own cars, self rental cars or by local taxis. Their rates being published online does not mean I am okay with those and I should ride with them, its a public road, in a democratic country.

Quote:
Originally Posted by malq View Post
The one added input I have here is that the issue appears to be not closed. And that one should not be swayed by only one side of the story.
The video gives both side of the story very clearly.
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Old 28th July 2015, 08:36   #462
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Came across another person who's had a bad experience with this taxi union, their misdeeds know no bounds! This incident is only five days old. Please give due cognisance to the current situation in Leh. We are all protesting for a reason! Lets focus on this larger and very real issue! Car convoy attacked in Ladakh by taxi mafia!-imageuploadedbyteambhp1438052614.327540.jpg
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Old 28th July 2015, 09:53   #463
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I don't understand the All India Permit which Mr. Akshay Joshi is talking about. Private vehicles do not require such kind of permits. They can be driven any where in India, with full compliance to the state specfic laws (including taxation laws). It was the commercial vehicles like taxis and trucks which used to have the "South India Permit", "National Permit" etc. Then there is the Inland Permit, which is required for people (and not just for vehicles) to move around certain areas in India (eg: Arunachal Pradesh, Nubra, Khardung La etc.).

So if there are 150 complaints lodged and the district authorities plan to do nothing, as I see it the tourists have a lost case now. Perhaps more action is required to push the district administration to take some action.
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Old 28th July 2015, 10:27   #464
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Default Re: Car convoy attacked in Ladakh by taxi mafia!

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Originally Posted by ashnd View Post
Came across another person who's had a bad experience with this taxi union, their misdeeds know no bounds! This incident is only five days old. Please give due cognisance to the current situation in Leh. We are all protesting for a reason! Lets focus on this larger and very real issue!

Thanks Ashnd, I think everyone has expressed their support, have you or any of your convoy members filed the FIR.

While on that, it is heartening to see HVKs post and to see that there have been many travelers who have been able to complete this epic travail without incident.

Cheers!
Trojan
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Old 28th July 2015, 10:47   #465
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Default Re: Car convoy attacked in Ladakh by taxi mafia!

I had a couple of friends who were driving to ladakh from kerala in a bolero. They seem to have come back without issues. On the other hand,they are veterans of both getting in and out of trouble like this on drives, so doubt this would have been a big deal for them, if they faced it at all.

Last edited by greenhorn : 28th July 2015 at 10:49.
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