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Old 28th July 2015, 11:05   #466
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Default Re: Car convoy attacked in Ladakh by taxi mafia!

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Originally Posted by Trojan View Post
Thanks Ashnd, I think everyone has expressed their support, have you or any of your convoy members filed the FIR.

While on that, it is heartening to see HVKs post and to see that there have been many travelers who have been able to complete this epic travail without incident.

Cheers!
Trojan
Thanks Trojan. We are also brainstorming as a group on the next course of action- this is not a scenario that's easily put right, there are so many stakeholders that some tough stances need to be taken by the administration. At least- the people who were doubting whether this was a one-off issue can see that its a clear and present danger in that part of the country.

Within our group, each individual needs to decide to what extent they wish to pursue the matter. As far as completing the trip safely is concerned, most areas should be safe and most trips should go smoothly. What travelers need to be aware of are these trouble spots- Karu, Pangong, Nubra etc and then move around whilst being aware of any agitations in the area.

On the flip side, Akshay Joshi, the victim of this latest attack was only driving around Leh in his MH registered private vehicle! Certainly not a type of holiday I would like!
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Old 28th July 2015, 11:28   #467
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Default Re: Car convoy attacked in Ladakh by taxi mafia!

Okay.. time to do a bit of self-study on the "self-driven rented cars".

malq has raised a point on what is considered as a "motor car" in India's MV Act, 1988. This is like the bible for all motor vehicle laws in India. States would have their own MV Rules which acts as a corollary.

Excerpts from MV Act, 1988
"heavy passenger motor vehicle" means any public service vehicle or private service vehicle or educational institution bus or omnibus the gross vehicle weight of any of which, or a motor car the unladen weight of which, exceeds 12,000 kilograms
...
"light motor vehicle" means a transport vehicle or omnibus the gross vehicle weight of either of which or a motor car or tractor or road-roller the unladen weight of any of which, does not exceed 7,500 kilograms
...
"maxicab" means any motor vehicle constructed or adapted to carry more than six passengers, but not more than twelve passengers, excluding the driver, for hire or reward;
“motorcab” means any motor vehicle constructed or adapted to carry not more than six passengers excluding the driver for hire or reward;


Now the first question we need to consider is whether the Fortuner vehicle which was involved, falls under which category (of the above).
Toyota's official web site states:-
Gross Vehicle Weight: 2510 kgs i.e 2 tonner
Seating capacity: 7 seater.
With this data, Heavy passenger motor vehicle can be ruled out. The choice is between LMV, Maxi Cab or Motor Cab. LMV again gets ruled out as it does not mention any thing about driving for hire or reward. That leaves only Maxi Cab & Motor Cab. A Toyota Fortuner may be a border line case of being a motor cab. Because the seating capacity of a Fortuner is 6 passengers+1 driver, totalling 7 passengers. Any thing above this, means that the said vehicle is being illegally used for a "rent-a-car scheme".

The next thing I checked was what are the laws governing rent-a-car scheme. The only legislation (or some legal document) I could find out came from the Transport web site of the Bihar government. RENT A CAB SCHEME, 1989. This scheme has been formulated based on the rights granted by Section 75, MV Act which talks about "Scheme for renting of motor cabs". The section only gives rights to the Central Government to frame the legislations, and so we can assume the pan-India validity of the same. In this entire legislation, I could only find relevant provisions related to "motor cabs", nothing on "maxi cabs". From what I could get from the J&K Motor Vehicle Dept. web site (http://jaktrans.nic.in/), Motor Vehicle Act 1988, is valid in J&K area as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ashnd
Within our group, each individual needs to decide to what extent they wish to pursue the matter.
If you want to pursue the matter legally, then my humble request would be to get the FIR lodged quickly. There is legally no time frame to file an FIR, but the more delayed it is (from the date of occurrence), the value of it as a legal evidence would go down (LawGuru.com). And for any judicial process related to a crime to be started FIR is required. E-Mails, or social media messages etc. would not be accepted at all.

Last edited by sachinpk : 28th July 2015 at 11:34. Reason: Response to ashnd added in as well.
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Old 28th July 2015, 12:13   #468
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Default Re: Car convoy attacked in Ladakh by taxi mafia!

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Originally Posted by schakravarthy View Post
This is what HVK has to say:

Additionally, a comment from him on the same post says-
"We advise 10-15 teams in Ladakh DAILY - all of them are well. None of the 200+ teams that we have already advised this season have faced any problems"
My group which decided to cancel the self-owned, self-driven trip to Ladakh was in touch with HVK for logistics. If I recall correctly, his comment was that it is okay to drive TILL Ladakh in private cars, but for going to Nubra etc. the local taxis are recommended. I am willing to be corrected if my understanding was incorrect. The trip is remaining canceled however on matter of principle.

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Originally Posted by ashnd View Post
Came across another person who's had a bad experience with this taxi union, their misdeeds know no bounds! This incident is only five days old. Please give due cognisance to the current situation in Leh. We are all protesting for a reason! Lets focus on this larger and very real issue!
This should put paid to the "ecological damage" and "driving over a local" conspiracy theories. No ambiguity here...

Quote:
Originally Posted by sachinpk View Post
I don't understand the All India Permit which Mr. Akshay Joshi is talking about.
I believe he may be referring to the All India Permit which self-drive rentals like Zoomcar carry.

Last edited by NowNew7 : 28th July 2015 at 12:15. Reason: Corrected spelling and grammar
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Old 28th July 2015, 12:32   #469
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Originally Posted by ashnd View Post
Came across another person who's had a bad experience with this taxi union, their misdeeds know no bounds! This incident is only five days old. Please give due cognisance to the current situation in Leh. We are all protesting for a reason!
Hi, sorry for that. But may I suggest you a few suggestions? Please consult a lawyer and there exists a provision to file FIR via registered post. And if a police station refuses to file one, you can approach a Magistrate with the proof. He will direct the police to take proper action.

All of us are protesting this in ways we can , but all those who are saying that ladakhis have right to earn etc, the method of their protest is incorrect. If they are so concerned about ecological damage, they should allow only cycles and trekkers there. As long as no law (written and not local) was violated, the culprits must be punished.

Regarding self drive cars, people choose to go for that because its well maintained and cheaper than the taxi rates. It's a business. If you can't sustain, change your business model/ close shop. You cannot resort to hooliganism.

Had they politely requested / explained the situation etc, something could have been worked out. But no, they went in berserk mode.
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Old 28th July 2015, 12:36   #470
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Default Re: Car convoy attacked in Ladakh by taxi mafia!

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Originally Posted by NowNew7 View Post
.... his comment was that it is okay to drive TILL Ladakh in private cars, but for going to Nubra etc. the local taxis are recommended.
Surprising. But, this update isn't exactly old either.

Car convoy attacked in Ladakh by taxi mafia!-screenshot_20150728123041.png
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Old 28th July 2015, 12:54   #471
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Default Re: Car convoy attacked in Ladakh by taxi mafia!

I think we should spread the word and encourage people to stop visiting Ladakh. One bad season and these goons will get the message - Can we create some kind of shareable content (Images, Links) that can be spread on social media indicating the dangers of visiting Leh / Ladakh ?
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Old 28th July 2015, 13:24   #472
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Default Re: Car convoy attacked in Ladakh by taxi mafia!

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Originally Posted by sachinpk View Post
Okay.. time to do a bit of self-study on the "self-driven rented cars".

malq has raised a point on what is considered as a "motor car" in India's MV Act, 1988. This is like the bible for all motor vehicle laws in India. States would have their own MV Rules which acts as a corollary.

[
"heavy passenger motor vehicle" means any public service vehicle or private service vehicle or educational institution bus or omnibus the gross vehicle weight of any of which, or a motor car the unladen weight of which, exceeds 12,000 kilograms
...
"light motor vehicle" ...
...
"maxicab" means any motor vehicle constructed or adapted to carry more than six passengers, but not more than twelve passengers, excluding the driver, for hire or reward;
“motorcab” means any motor vehicle constructed or adapted to carry not more than six passengers excluding the driver for hire or reward;
Basically, a self drive car is considered as LMV since you are not hiring the car with driver. You are just using the car. Hence it can't be said that it is motorcab/maxicab.

This reminds me of white plate cranes, towing vans, bore well trucks. They all are vehicles used to move the equipment but not the actual service. If you use self drive for commercial purpose (e.g.;running a zoom car as a taxi) then someone can take offence. Basically the company (e.g..zoomcar) just has equipment for hire. It shouldn't be considered as commercial as the person who uses it is using it to sight-see, move here and there , basically not gaining any money by it.

In that case, if I use a private registered car of my relative, that too will be illegal. Its not that I'm using it for commercial purposes, but still people could interpret it as illegal.
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Old 28th July 2015, 13:38   #473
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Default Re: Car convoy attacked in Ladakh by taxi mafia!

Latest mail in from Zoomcar

Quote:
Dear Zoomer,
This is a follow-up on the Ladakh Travel Advisory (about ban of non-local vehicles including self-drive rented cars) we had issued earlier. It has come to our notice that the situation has aggravated and all outside vehicles (even personal cars) are being restricted from entering Leh. Cases of violence, including manhandling and stone pelting, have also come to light.

In view of these unfortunate events, we would advise extreme caution to anyone who is planning to take any personal or rented vehicle in the region.

In case of any query please feel free to reach out to our Delhi Support team (delhi.support@zoomcar.com).
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Old 28th July 2015, 13:46   #474
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Default Re: Car convoy attacked in Ladakh by taxi mafia!

Quote:
Originally Posted by blackwasp
Basically, a self drive car is considered as LMV since you are not hiring the car with driver.
I don't think that is the right interpretation (but correct me if you have any further details, or some other cases on this angle). MV Act is clearly defining what is considered to be a maxi cab or a motor cab. It is defined by just two facts, the passenger capacity & whether it (the vehicle) is being used based on a hire/reward scheme. Whether there is a driver provided or not,is immaterial.

Quote:
If you use self drive for commercial purpose (e.g.;running a zoom car as a taxi) then someone can take offence
ZoomCar itself is a rental agency (or the Taxi Company), from who the "some one" is hiring a vehicle. Now if that "some one" takes this vehicle, and starts giving it on hire to other people, he is doing some thing illegal. Because the "some one" does not have the necessary legal authority/permit to rent out the car. He can at the best drive the car which he has rented from "ZoomCar" (with passengers, but cannot collect any money/reward). Think it as similar to your housing agreement. ZoomCar is giving a you a house on rent, you can use the house even have your relatives come down and stay with you. But you cannot "sub-let" the house in any manner, because you are not the legal owner, ZoomCar is.

Quote:
It shouldn't be considered as commercial as the person who uses it is using it to sight-see, move here and there , basically not gaining any money by it.
It is commercial as there is a deal between the rental agency ZoomCar and the person who has taken the vehicle on hire. Money is getting exchanged. The person who took the car may be using it for sight seeing etc., but that is immaterial here. He has paid money to get the vehicle, and ZoomCar as the rental agency has made money out of it. The Ladakh taxi fellows seems to be upset with this. Because a non-Ladakhi car agency (ZoomCars) is making money, while they have to twiddle their thumbs and it. The poor chap who actually hired the vehicle is getting harassed because he is the easiest person to catch (as he is in Ladakh).

Quote:
In that case, if I use a private registered car of my relative, that too will be illegal. Its not that I'm using it for commercial purposes, but still people could interpret it as illegal.
This ambiguity was exploited a lot in a time when cars were not very common. There were such "fake taxis" a plenty in Kerala. People who owned cars, used to let it out for hire (at reduced rates) with clear instructions to the hiring party. The hiring party should say that it is a relative's car. In some places this was quite rampant, and actual taxi drivers had kind of formed squads to stop such vehicles and harass the passengers (this happened in late 1980s etc.).
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Old 28th July 2015, 13:47   #475
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Default Re: Car convoy attacked in Ladakh by taxi mafia!

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Originally Posted by sachinpk View Post
The choice is between LMV, Maxi Cab or Motor Cab. LMV again gets ruled out as it does not mention any thing about driving for hire or reward. That leaves only Maxi Cab & Motor Cab. A Toyota Fortuner may be a border line case of being a motor cab. Because the seating capacity of a Fortuner is 6 passengers+1 driver, totalling 7 passengers. Any thing above this, means that the said vehicle is being illegally used for a "rent-a-car scheme".
This is a wrong interpretation. You are mistaking "driver for hire or reward" with "car for hire or reward". Maxi Cab and Motor Cab only applies when the driver has been hired or rewarded by the passengers. So, the Fortuner is very much an LMV and we all get license to drive LMV.
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Old 28th July 2015, 13:50   #476
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Default Re: Car convoy attacked in Ladakh by taxi mafia!

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Originally Posted by ashnd View Post
We are also brainstorming as a group on the next course of action- this is not a scenario that's easily put right, there are so many stakeholders that some tough stances need to be taken by the administration.
I didn't understand your point, are you talking about yourself/group or are you talking about the consequential actions that would require to be taken by the administration


Quote:
Originally Posted by ashnd View Post
At least- the people who were doubting whether this was a one-off issue can see that its a clear and present danger in that part of the country.
Agree that a highly unpleasant, scary and dangerous incident took place with you and your group, but I wouldn't generalize it to such an extent.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ashnd View Post
Within our group, each individual needs to decide to what extent they wish to pursue the matter.
What about you? You have started this thread and have painstakingly collected a lot of information, am sure that's not easy as well.
Its not always possible to get everyone's agreement (as witnesses/complainants etc.) but at the same time, it does not prevent your individual right to file an FIR

Do not delay the report filing, while the issue is still widely circulated, it will be dealt with urgency/seriousness as well.
Remember - the urgency you show in filing a case and expected justice will be relative to the response received.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ashnd View Post
On the flip side, Akshay Joshi, the victim of this latest attack was only driving around Leh in his MH registered private vehicle! Certainly not a type of holiday I would like!
Nobody enjoys such a vacation! But then we must remember this (social media) will always remain a one party version as there is no representation of the actual people (participants in the incident). The representatives of those people themselves were not present at the locations, so there will be multiple versions.
In order for a thorough and concrete action and in cases (even trial), a formal complaint is absolutely necessary.

I keep repeating this as in absence of a complaint and eventual actions, social medium loses steam over time, if not by anything then by positive accounts of people who have been there done that etc.

This will sooner or later get frustrating, defending your point with people - who maybe just have some free time.

But then that's me.

Cheers!
Trojan

Last edited by Trojan : 28th July 2015 at 13:53.
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Old 28th July 2015, 14:07   #477
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Default Re: Car convoy attacked in Ladakh by taxi mafia!

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Originally Posted by ashnd View Post
Thanks Trojan. We are also brainstorming as a group on the next course of action- this is not a scenario that's easily put right, there are so many stakeholders that some tough stances need to be taken by the administration.
Do keep me in the Loop if you guys are planning something on similar lines.

We will positively be filing the PIL next week in the High Court of J&K.

Regards,

Waseem Memon
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Old 28th July 2015, 14:14   #478
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Originally Posted by ashlil View Post
This is a wrong interpretation. You are mistaking "driver for hire or reward" with "car for hire or reward". Maxi Cab and Motor Cab only applies when the driver has been hired or rewarded by the passengers. So, the Fortuner is very much an LMV and we all get license to drive LMV.
Would you be able to help me with some legal information (acts, laws, MV rules, past verdicts from courts etc.) to confirm the above? If I check the MV act definition the hiring or rewarding is for the "use" of the vehicle, and not for availing the services of a driver (and a car). In-fact MV act's definition of maxi cab and motor cab does not explicitly say that the driver (and his services) have to be part of the deal.

A Fortuner owned by an individual would be classified as LMV, but once it has been bought by a car rental agency, or is hired out then it gets classified as a motor cab based on the MV Act definitions. So if the car you hired was from ZoomCar, it is no more a privately owned vehicle but a vehicle taken on rent from a car rental agency (ZoomCar).

Only a Taxi Car (a motor cab) which wants the "All India Tourist Permit", requires that the car should be driven around by a driver, who also has the "badge" to drive public vehicles. Refer to the Delhi Govt. Web site. Refer point #20. And that being said, if the vehicles which ZoomCar rents out are having the "All India Tourist Permit", then they are violating the law if they allow that vehicle to be driven by a driver who does not have the "badge" to drive a public vehicle.
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Old 28th July 2015, 14:31   #479
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Default Re: Car convoy attacked in Ladakh by taxi mafia!

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Originally Posted by sachinpk View Post
Would you be able to help me with some legal information (acts, laws, MV rules, past verdicts from courts etc.) to confirm the above? If I check the MV act definition the hiring or rewarding is for the "use" of the vehicle, and not for availing the services of a driver (and a car). In-fact MV act's definition of maxi cab and motor cab does not explicitly say that the driver (and his services) have to be part of the deal.

A Fortuner owned by an individual would be classified as LMV, but once it has been bought by a car rental agency, or is hired out then it gets classified as a motor cab based on the MV Act definitions. So if the car you hired was from ZoomCar, it is no more a privately owned vehicle but a vehicle taken on rent from a car rental agency (ZoomCar).

Only a Taxi Car (a motor cab) which wants the "All India Tourist Permit", requires that the car should be driven around by a driver, who also has the "badge" to drive public vehicles. Refer to the Delhi Govt. Web site. Refer point #20. And that being said, if the vehicles which ZoomCar rents out are having the "All India Tourist Permit", then they are violating the law if they allow that vehicle to be driven by a driver who does not have the "badge" to drive a public vehicle.
The MVA asks whether one is driving for commercial gain (hire or reward). So if you hire a driver for your private vehicle, that driver should have commercial license. If you hire a commercial vehicle for your personal drive, you do not require commercial license. (see this link: http://www.google.co.in/url?sa=t&rct...98717601,d.c2E ). See the section 10 d in the pdf file.

Permits are required for commercial vehicle (see http://delhigovt.nic.in/newdelhi/dept/transport/tr8.asp) . Zoomcar vehicles are commercial vehicles . Hence they are right to state that they have "All India Tourist Permit".

So to summarize, you require a commercial license (LMV-TR) if you drive for commercial gain. Your vehicle requires a permit, if you use it for commercial purpose.

Last edited by ashlil : 28th July 2015 at 14:47. Reason: added a link
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Old 28th July 2015, 17:15   #480
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ashlil
The MVA asks whether one is driving for commercial gain (hire or reward).
There are two aspects on this "commercial" angle.
1. Vehicles classified to be used for commercial purposes. That is where the definition of "maxi cab", & "motor cab" comes into picture. And that as I said, is based on the number of passengers, and the fact that it (the vehicle) would be given out for use on a hire or reward basis.
2. People classified as to who can drive commercial vehicles. This is where the concept of "badge" etc. comes into play. And there are some extra regulations, which a person having a "badge" should adhere to. My understanding is that a person can get an LMV driving license at age 18 (which allows him to drive private vehicles), but to get a "badge" (which allows him to drive commercial vehicles) he has to be 21 years or above.

So it is clear that the commercial aspects of a vehicle and a person is kept as two different aspects. So when we take a motor cab on hire, it is just the motor cab we are hiring, and not the driver who comes along with the vehicle. But generally in India, the driver gets allocated as well for various reasons. It is also the onus of a person having a commercial vehicle only allows the appropriately licensed person to drive the vehicle. That is why you see police and RTO etc., fining the bus owners etc., if they find the staff are not having the "commercial" license (or badge).

Quote:
If you hire a commercial vehicle for your personal drive, you do not require commercial license.
I was a bit confused on the area in which a car rented out can actually run? Can they be only used within the state? Or can they go out of state as well (and has a pan-India permit). Perhaps the experts out here can also help us, because this single point would determine if non-Ladakhi rental car agencies can send their cars to Ladakh.

I checked up the information provided by ZoomCar itself. They are pretty clear that their vehicles have an "All India Permit", and the person who has hired the vehicle can cross various state borders, by paying a state specific tax. Refer to http://www.zoomcar.com/outstation . And they are quick to update, as you can see the entry on Ladakh . I did check a bit more on what this "All India Permit" they were taking about and got my answers too.

Rent-a-Cab Permits :
With the increase in no. of multinationals Companies & tourists requirements Rent-A-Cab scheme was launched in India in 1989. Under this scheme the passenger drives the vehicle himself & fare is charged on no. of days the cab is used. The applicant should have a 24 hrs. accessible telephone, adequate parking space, experience of passenger transport business. The applicant in addition should have a fleet of 50 cabs of which 50% should be air-conditioned. The permit of these schemes are also valid throughout India provided the passenger taxes were paid to the corresponding states.

As a lay man (not formally trained in law), I feel that the rent-a-car agency are going by the books. The driver or person who hired the vehicle have to pay the local (state specific) passenger taxes. So in the case of even Ladakh trips, all it is required is to pay up this tax. We also need to assume that Fortuner (or a 7 seater vehicle) can be operated as a "motor cab", and the "Tourist Taxi permit" (which I thought was required earlier) is not required in this case.

Last edited by sachinpk : 28th July 2015 at 17:21.
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