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Old 6th September 2006, 21:05   #16
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Thats the prob with most expressways in India. You can give them the roads but who's to give them the brains?

Same thing happened to me while doing Hubli-Belgaum. But in this case, it's the builders that need to be blamed. There are so many diversion that you never know if you're supposed to be on this side of the divider or that side.

It's prob the most pathetic expressway i've seen.

In contrast look at Belgaum-Kolhapur, both parties started work at the same time but "RN Shetty" doesn't seem to be bothered about the Hubli-Belgaum stretch.

He should stick to selling cars.

Shan2nu

Last edited by Samurai : 6th September 2006 at 22:38.
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Old 6th September 2006, 21:39   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ram
Fellow Team-BHPians:

Do you agree that all of this would have been a non-issue, if the parties concerned: namely, the truck, the Zen, the Tavera and the Sumo and brother pramodkumar had not been speeding at unsafe speeds?
So on a 4 lane highway you 60 is an unsafe speed. By that logic on 2 lane roads you should not exceed 40, right?
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Old 6th September 2006, 21:47   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tsk1979
So on a 4 lane highway you 60 is an unsafe speed. By that logic on 2 lane roads you should not exceed 40, right?
Where did you synthesize these numbers 60 and 40 from?
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Old 6th September 2006, 22:09   #19
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Thats what the original poster mentioned,
Quote:
i see the zen taking a voilent left turn and i was in fron of an idiot cabbie driving a trevera at about 40 in the opposite direction, i was at 60 i almost got any time to react and there was another cabbie in sumo tailgating me if i would have hit the breaks the cabbie behind me would have banged my car so i also took a voilent left for getting the fact that i had a truck on the other side. the truck driver realised this and he slowed down (i was lucky) and i survived
You did not even read the post before commenting?!!
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Old 7th September 2006, 01:07   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ram
Fellow Team-BHPians:

Do you agree that all of this would have been a non-issue, if the parties concerned: namely, the truck, the Zen, the Tavera and the Sumo and brother pramodkumar had not been speeding at unsafe speeds?

All of us are aware that as speeds increase, reaction times come down.

Then you need military fitness and the reflexes of a Sukhoi fighter pilot just to survive.

That said, doesn't it make sense just to drive more slowly at 01:00 am when most people after dinner may also expected to be a little drowsy?
As pointed out by tsk1979, in this case the speeds were like 60 kmph and 40 kmph -- so overspeeding is not the culprit here. The issue here is one of following the car ahead (Zen) a touch too closely. If that must be done it would be a good idea to have a view of the road ahead of the Zen, if at all possible - either by looking through its windshield or by following in a slightly staggered manner rather than directly behind. Note that the lorry driver in the parallel lane did see ahead of the Zen and had enough time to anticipate and react. I wonder why the Zen had to swerve *suddenly*. Did the Tavera guy emerge from a blind curve or suddenly get into the wrong side just ahead of the Zen? Or maybe the Zen driver either failed to see the Tavera in time or decided to swerve at the last minute to scare the Tavera guy? If so the Zen is also at fault.

Last edited by rks : 7th September 2006 at 01:15.
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Old 7th September 2006, 02:34   #21
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[quote=ram]Fellow Team-BHPians:

Do you agree that all of this would have been a non-issue, if the parties concerned: namely, the truck, the Zen, the Tavera and the Sumo and brother pramodkumar had not been speeding at unsafe speeds?


Hey bro i was roughly at 60 or may be less i was on the 3rd gear and i was trying to over take the truk on my left same way as the zen guy and more over you know the was a sumo guy tailgating me so if i go any slower there would have been a road rage there these cabbies honk like hooligans.
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Old 7th September 2006, 03:14   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by autozealot
A few weeks ago, co-incidently, I was on NH8 between Gujarat & Mumbai when I saw a d**k-head trucker driving in the opposite direction that too in the right lane (my right) at quite a speed without any kind of signal or flasher. I was like 90+ & when I saw him, I just moved behind another truck on my left.
Had a similar experience last year on, of all places, the Mumbai-Pune Expressway. Just a few kms after the inlet toll gate on Mumbai side I saw a pair of headlights in the distance while I was on the right lane and doing 120 kmph or so. First I thought the vehicle was on the other side of the divider, but as it approached I realized with deep shock that it was on my lane and coming directly at me. Had enough time to switch to middle lane safely -- the vehicle was a huge 18-wheeler truck. I think the driver either made an awful error or was pulling some stunt to avoid paying toll.

Last edited by rks : 7th September 2006 at 03:18.
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Old 7th September 2006, 10:27   #23
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Default The three-second cushion

Our human failings, attention-drift, etc., on the road, need a minimum reaction time of 3 seconds. So estimate the people, that experienced and approached these problems, historically before us.

DMV California rules say…
“…
Most rear end accidents are caused by tailgating. To avoid tailgating, use the “three-second rule.” When the vehicle ahead of you passes a certain point such as a sign, count “one-thousand-one, one-thousand-two, one-thousand-three.”

This takes about three seconds. If you pass the same point before you finish counting, you are following too closely.

You should allow a four-second or more cushion when:
  • Towing a trailer or Carrying a heavy load. The extra weight makes it harder to stop.
  • Following large vehicles that block your view ahead. The extra space allows you to see around the vehicle.
…”

Australian rules: (page 44 & 45 of 132)
“…
A low risk driver maintains a crash avoidance space completely around the vehicle. The crash avoidance space is managed by adjusting the vehicle’s speed and road position.
To determine the crash avoidance space to the front of the vehicle you need to take into account two key factors – reaction time and response time.

Reaction time is the time the driver needs to:
See the information. Perceive what it means. Decide on a response. Instigate that response.
A driver who is fit, concentrating, alert and not affected by alcohol, drugs, fatigue or a distraction, will still require about one and a half seconds to react.

Response time is the time required to take action. Generally a minimum of one and a half seconds is needed to respond. In many situations braking may be the only possible response. Swerving is rarely appropriate and can result in a more severe crash, for example a head-on collision.

A total of three seconds crash avoidance space is needed to react and respond to a situation in front of you. You may need even longer in poor conditions such as rain or darkness. The three-second rule, explained below, can be used when following another vehicle or if there is potential for something to move into your crash avoidance space.

As the rear of the vehicle in front of you passes an object at the side of the road such as a power pole, tree or sign, start a three-second count ‘one thousand and one, one thousand and two, one
thousand and three’.

If your car passes the object you picked before you finish the three-second count, you are following too closely.Your crash avoidance space is not large enough.

Slow down, and repeat the count again until the three-second crash avoidance space is achieved.

In poor driving conditions, such as rain, night and gravel roads, it may be necessary to increase your crash avoidance space to four or more seconds. To reduce the risk of driving into the rear of a vehicle, the three-second crash avoidance space is essential, as the vehicle in front has the potential to stop very quickly if it collides with another vehicle or stationary object.
…”

At 60 km/h on a road, the three-second distance ensures you get a good 50 metres (164 feet) of blunder-tolerance room. At 120 km/h our clumsiness needs double the room: i.e. 100 m (328 feet).

Shall we educate ourselves and our near and dear ones to maintain that three-second distance?

Ram
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Old 7th September 2006, 10:51   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ram
Fellow Team-BHPians:

Do you agree that all of this would have been a non-issue, if the parties concerned: ........
Ram
What?!? A non-issue? I don't believe you just said that Ram. Even if there was no-one driving on that road at that time, is it correct for someone to drive in the extreme right lane of a high speed expressway? IN THE OPPOSITE DIRECTION!!

If people like you, who have years of experience driving abroad, say things like this, its no wonder our Police make up cases for accidents the way they do.
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Old 7th September 2006, 10:55   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rks
First I thought the vehicle was on the other side of the divider, but as it approached I realized with deep shock that it was on my lane and coming directly at me.

Thats exactly what the zen driver ahead of pramod must have experienced.

@ ram: You are not at all wrong in saying that slower the speed the longer the reaction time. I think all of us here agree to this.
But come on man, when u are not expecting the devil & when u see him in front of you suddenly, who is to be blamed? Yourself?
So its like this. The tavera driver was clearly at fault. Even if the other cars were doing 5 or 10 kms/hr, there would be a mishap.
I feel so.

az
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Old 7th September 2006, 11:04   #26
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Hey, Well IDIOTS like the Tavera driver have only one answer ..... the first time it happened with me was about 5 yrs back when I was on my bike !!! And I had just entered Delhi after riding from Kotgarh and then the Dilliwallah attitude just pissed me of ..... He kept honking , and honking and honking .... finally I let him overtake me from the left only for him to show me his middle finger !! And that did it ... hindi movie style -- overtook -- slowed down -- got of -- took out his keys -- and the lil call centre kids started abusing me ( one was a HOT WOMAN ) -- finally my fuse blew completely -- keys flew to the other side of the road -- choicest of gaalis in Hindi & Punjabi to the driver -- and a BLASTING to the behenji turned mod staffers in the cab !!!!

Even till today when I see some cabbie do something similar there are chances that he gets a hammering ..... though wifey has made me cut it down to one in 15 days !!!

And for ppl who mention that it was the cars fault for speeding ...well , I guess its easy to start an arguement over any issue --- but why waste others time ???? So keep such by the book thoughts to urself ....

Cheers
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Old 7th September 2006, 11:06   #27
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Ram,
While your post was very informative, I dont think its doable.
I drive on the delhi ring road where traffic moves between 50-60kmph. Even if I give a 30 mts gap between myself and the vehicle in front, somebody tries to get in. So 20mts is the max. So If was was 50mts behind the vehicle in front, a guy would come in and then I would be 10mts from the guy in front. I slow down again and even before I reach 30mts there would be another person squeezing in.
On highways its possible, but even in the US, on the freeways where the entire convoy is moving at 60mph the max possible distance in rush hour is about 40mts.
I saw this extensively on 101 in california, and on many instances bumper to bumper traffic was moving within 10mts of each other at 40mph.
On Indian highways If want to overtake someone, I have to get near the rear bumber and honk and flash the guy to make him move. From 50mts nobody pays any attention to you.

To follow your suggestions the highways speed has to be around 50kmph and city speed has to be 30kmph. Do you drive at those speeds?
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Old 7th September 2006, 11:25   #28
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My dear dear friends:

Why misunderstand me?
I am made of the same stuff as you are, and think the same things you do.

Tanveer, I have driven Interstate 5 (from Everett,WA to Los Angeles, across Washington and Oregon state boundaries zillions of times) and have experienced bumper-to-bumper from SFO to San Jose in the early mornings, while driving to work on both the 101, (listening to K101 and KLOK) and Fwy 17 too.
Forcing a distance between you and the car ahead of you still worked for me, trust me on that!

Coming back, the Tavera driver, driving on the wrong side of the highway was clearly at fault.

But aren't we interested in our own and our passengers' safety, first?
If we are slower (more reaction time, more re) we can protect ourselves from these maniacs better.
While it is OK to speed up on multilane expressways,
driving through populous areas, calls for extreme caution.

If you are with me on this, let's just move on.

Ram
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Old 7th September 2006, 11:30   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ram
, I have driven Interstate 5 (from Everett,WA to Los Angeles, across Washington and Oregon state boundaries zillions of times) and have experienced bumper-to-bumper from SFO to San Jose in the early mornings, while driving to work on both the 101, (listening to K101 and KLOK) and Fwy 17 too.
!
So what - driving in the US requires no skill or talent
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Old 7th September 2006, 11:43   #30
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Ram, forcing the gap between the cars will definitely work - for you and for all of us: In US. You would agree that it doesnt work here. We were discussing about Indian behaviour, and drivers do like Tanveer described. Wonder how your very focussed posts went on a slight detour this time.

Here, if I slow down even a little, for a legitimate reason, one can bet on the guy[s] behind me to try immediately to pass me. He wouldnt think even for a moment that he needs to check before he over-takes me.

OT: Where's fwy 17? Only remember 101 and 280, unless you are on the east bay taking 880.
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