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Old 3rd December 2015, 12:39   #31
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Default Re: Automotive Zeitgeist...or how older driving practices have changed today

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Originally Posted by braindead View Post
I am not sure if such a thing already exists, but can TeamBHP create an online document having guidelines of how to drive/ride properly?
Please stop by the Team-BHP Safety Section. It has detailed articles listing the best practices for driving on highways, ghats, at night, in the rains etc.
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Old 3rd December 2015, 12:46   #32
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Default Re: Automotive Zeitgeist...or how older driving practices have changed today

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Originally Posted by hemanth.anand View Post
I know that blue sign tells me what I'm mandated to do and the red ones tell what not to do.

Now why do you want to tell people to take any of the two ways at a T junction when that's all they can do!
You are getting done in by the semantics of the word 'mandatory' mate.

One is 'mandated' to follow the instructions given in BOTH circles, except red is used to highlight actions which are NOT to be taken.

Why we want to tell people to take a left or right at a t-junction is because these signs are supposed to be placed well before one reaches the u-turn, and provide a 'HEADS UP to the motorist, many a times even before it can be visually sighted, thus allowing the motorist sufficient time to filter through lanes, indicate intentions to turn etc.

In India everything is at the last minute, including placement of such signs, so your doubt is understandable.

Last edited by outofthebox : 3rd December 2015 at 12:47. Reason: spell check
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Old 3rd December 2015, 13:44   #33
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Default Re: Automotive Zeitgeist...or how older driving practices have changed today

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Originally Posted by SS-Traveller View Post
Reversing

The ideal way to reverse one's vehicle many years ago, was to place one's left arm across the backrest of the passenger seat, and turn one's torso, head and neck around (tough to do for someone suffering from torticollis!), observe through the rear windscreen and left rear window, and then reverse.

With the advent of ORVMs and reversing sensors (and even rear-view cameras) in most of today's vehicles (Reverse camera or Sensor ?), reversing has become so effortless and much less painful. The need to turn back and directly observe the road behind while reversing has been all but eliminated, and (presumably!) one is able to reverse much more safely today than even 10-15 years ago.
I still reverse in this fashion by looking out of the rear windscreen or looking out the drivers window. I also rotate the left side ORVM downwards. My car does not have a reverse sensor but even when driving cars equipped with this technology I still prefer to eyeball where my car is going. I do not believe that parking sensors and cameras have completely removed the need of self judgement through direct vision while parking.

Most people do it the way you have described but some how I feel that it is not the best practice. Most people do not even roll down their windows while parking.
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Old 3rd December 2015, 14:14   #34
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Default Re: Automotive Zeitgeist...or how older driving practices have changed today

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Originally Posted by Yusha View Post
Most people do it the way you have described but some how I feel that it is not the best practice. Most people do not even roll down their windows while parking.
Windows don't need to be rolled down while parking. The textbook way of reversing in UK schools (and elsewhere) is switch on your hazard lights (to warn others), make use of all three mirrors iteratively (left, right & overhead RVMs) and reverse slowly.

There are two different techniques tested in the UK curriculum - perpendicular parking and parallel parking. One can Youtube or Google them to practise and learn.

Other critical instructions include being aware of the exact point where full lock position of the steering wheel is to be applied. Comes with a bit of practise.

Perpendicular parking came easy to me but I really sweated it out in the parallel parking test. I hate parallel parking even today.
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Old 3rd December 2015, 14:16   #35
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Default Re: Automotive Zeitgeist...or how older driving practices have changed today

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Originally Posted by outofthebox View Post
You are getting done in by the semantics of the word 'mandatory' mate.
One is 'mandated' to follow the instructions given in BOTH circles, except red is used to highlight actions which are NOT to be taken.
I agree. I'm not talking about the semantics
We definitely are obligated (or mandated) to follow all the rules.

Quote:
Why we want to tell people to take a left or right at a t-junction is because these signs are supposed to be placed well before one reaches the u-turn, and provide a 'HEADS UP to the motorist, many a times even before it can be visually sighted, thus allowing the motorist sufficient time to filter through lanes, indicate intentions to turn etc.
Circle signs are not to give a warning or informing...it is for ordering.
To give a heads up or to warn, we have the Triangle signs don't we?
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Ok, Let me try one more time.

I feel that these 4 Mandatory signs are just redundant.
I want to know if there are any special places/situations which I do not know about and which has given birth to these signs.

I have tried to show why I feel it is redundant in the below picture (assuming a simple PLUS junction).

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Old 3rd December 2015, 14:27   #36
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Default Re: Automotive Zeitgeist...or how older driving practices have changed today

Parking on a hill

Now, this is quite important. The idea is to park in such a manner, that the car rolls off the road (incase it moves inadvertently), rather than into the road traffic. Check out https://driversed.com/driving-inform...on-a-hill.aspx for a pictorial explanation.

Not sure if this is covered in any of the Indian driving manual. These guidelines are generally flouted.

Last edited by KomS_CarLog : 3rd December 2015 at 14:40.
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Old 3rd December 2015, 14:59   #37
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Default Re: Automotive Zeitgeist...or how older driving practices have changed today

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Originally Posted by hemanth.anand View Post
Circle signs are not to give a warning or informing...it is for ordering.
To give a heads up or to warn, we have the Triangle signs don't we?

I want to know if there are any special places/situations which I do not know about and which has given birth to these signs.
Since you have taken so much effort to understand this, let me also make the effort so that you leave completely satisfied with the info.provided.

Firstly, all signs, regardless of their shape, need to be physically placed in such a location so as to give sufficient reaction time to motorists, viz., heads up.

Re. the other question, I'll just give a practical example for the first row & I'm sure you will latch on from there.

These signs were born of typical urban dual carriage motorways in UK, and are meant to be supported by road markings.

A double white line in such a road means DO NOT CROSS AT ALL TIMES and people adhere to it. No need of physical dividers. In real life, there are more painted signs on such roads e.g. stop lines, zig zag lines, yellow boxes and zebras etc but I've skipped drawing those because they are not relevant to the topic at hand.

Now the blue sign in the top left of your table would be placed on a carriageway like this one:
Automotive Zeitgeist...or how older driving practices have changed today-bluecircle.png


Whereas the red sign would be placed on a road like this:
Automotive Zeitgeist...or how older driving practices have changed today-redcircle.png

Hope this clears the confusion.

Last edited by outofthebox : 3rd December 2015 at 15:01. Reason: typo
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Old 3rd December 2015, 15:28   #38
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Default Re: Automotive Zeitgeist...or how older driving practices have changed today

For Hemanth Anand - Left turn ahead, right turn ahead, road bifurcates to left and right, traffic can go either way of say - a divider.

Delhi Jaipur highway :

The government has no intention to improve things. All that needs to be done is a few signs put up, and goal posts of 3.5 M clearance on the right lane every few kilometers.

Once in place the practise of straying and staying in the right lane will lessen and cease.

Same with this toll issue. Sell tags and recharge tag coupons in every gas station. Any errant driver straying into the tag lane must be fines rs. 1000 or all will continue to suffer.

Driving license is a very easy access in India. This has to stop. Morons without any civic sense are granted licenses.
Look at us from Dubai - Signal test
Hill, descent, side parking, reverse parking test
Finally - road test.
Pre driving sequence
Mirror, side mirrors, seat adjustment, seat belt, hand brake shoulder turn.
Who teaches all this to Indians ? Hence the chaos.

Last edited by desertfox : 3rd December 2015 at 15:32.
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Old 3rd December 2015, 15:34   #39
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Default Re: Automotive Zeitgeist...or how older driving practices have changed today

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Originally Posted by outofthebox View Post
Since you have taken so much effort to understand this, let me also make the effort so that you leave completely satisfied with the info.provided.
Thank you. I appreciate it. with this discussion, I only want to everyone to gain.

Quote:
Firstly, all signs, regardless of their shape, need to be physically placed in such a location so as to give sufficient reaction time to motorists, viz., heads up.
Yes, agreed

Quote:
These signs were born of typical urban dual carriage motorways in UK, and are meant to be supported by road markings.
India adopted the same 70 years ago

Quote:
A double white line in such a road means DO NOT CROSS AT ALL TIMES and people adhere to it. No need of physical dividers.
I've driven in Other European countries apart from the UK and its the same. How I wish it was the same case here in India

Quote:
In real life, there are more painted signs on such roads e.g. stop lines, zig zag lines, yellow boxes and zebras etc but I've skipped drawing those because they are not relevant to the topic at hand.
Ok I'll not debate that

Quote:
Now the blue sign in the top left of your table would be placed on a carriageway like this one:
This sign is enough right?
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Quote:
Whereas the red sign would be placed on a road like this:
Absolutely no disagreement/doubt on this

Quote:
Hope this clears the confusion.
It remains
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Old 3rd December 2015, 17:06   #40
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Default Re: Automotive Zeitgeist...or how older driving practices have changed today

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Originally Posted by braindead View Post
I am not sure if such a thing already exists, but can TeamBHP create an online document having guidelines of how to drive/ride properly? Simple stuff like 'stick to your lane while turning right'.

Better if it's in a format that can be shared on most social networks.
BD, If we start following rules i am sure we would create more of a mess by trying to restrict whatever traffic that is flowing. . It would be unsafe for any of us to try to follow rules which seem logical since every other idiot driver would end up piling into us

Last edited by ATUL SINGH : 3rd December 2015 at 17:07. Reason: grammer
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Old 3rd December 2015, 17:12   #41
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Default Re: Automotive Zeitgeist...or how older driving practices have changed today

Quote:
Originally Posted by outofthebox View Post
Now the blue sign in the top left of your table would be placed on a carriageway like this one:
Quote:
Originally Posted by hemanth.anand View Post
This sign is enough right?


It remains
Quick primer:
Blue circular board = Mandatory OR permitted action sign.
Red- bordered white triangle = Warning sign.
Yellow / amber diamond = Warning / advisory sign.
White / blue / green square = road direction to follow sign.

Now, both the signs above mean the same (i.e. left side road ahead - approach with caution), and can be used interchangeably. It will depend on which country adopts which sign to mean the same thing. You're more likely to encounter the blue circular board across Europe (countries of which generally follow the Vienna Convention), and the red triangular sign in the US (which tends to follow the MUTCD, or Manual on Uniform Traffic Control Devices). In a few countries, you would come across a variety of signage to describe the same thing, as below:

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Since all these signs are accepted to be easy to understand, they are used interchangeably, and where the message conveyed is the same, the shape of the board can be any of the designs - blue circle, red triangle, yellow (or amber) diamond, or white (or green) square - depending on the country it is being used in.

One could write a book on road signs used in different countries. No, I'm not about to...

Last edited by SS-Traveller : 3rd December 2015 at 17:14.
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Old 3rd December 2015, 19:37   #42
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Default Re: Automotive Zeitgeist...or how older driving practices have changed today

The evolution of the handbrake

The handbrake in most cars still comprises of a ratcheted lever that the driver can pull up with hand, to engage either the brakes on the rear wheel, or a special braking mechanism installed on the propeller shaft. In very rare cases, the front wheel brakes could be actuated by the parking brake lever.

This was designated the parking-cum-emergency brake, or e-brake (the 'e' standing for emergency). With the evolution of better, multi-channel and fail-safe braking systems, the use of the handbrake as an emergency brake has been practically eliminated.

Driving instructors nowadays instruct drivers to engage the parking brake while the engine is running, while one is stopped at a traffic light (some advise that the right foot remain on the brake pedal all the time that one is stationary, thus keeping the brake lamps lit up as a warning to drivers coming up behind, that the vehicle is stationary; others debate that once another vehicle has stopped behind, one should not dazzle the driver continuously with the bright red lamps).

Be that as it may, the e-brake has now evolved into another kind of e-brake - not the emergency brake, but the electric brake. In many high-end cars, an electric motor engages the rear wheel brakes through a complex mechanism, where the parking brakes automatically engage when the engine is turned off, and again, automatically disengage when the throttle is pressed and the vehicle moves off. Or, one can press a small button on the dashboard to engage the parking brake when stationary - it'll disengage automatically as soon as you start to drive away.

Talk about idiot-proofing one's car! You can't do what is happening in the video below, with these hi-tech e-brakes:


But... in electric parking brake-equipped cars, you can't do what Tiff Needell talks about in the video below, either!

Safety first, of course!

Last edited by SS-Traveller : 3rd December 2015 at 19:40.
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Old 4th December 2015, 12:31   #43
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Default Re: Automotive Zeitgeist...or how older driving practices have changed today

SS-Traveller, hand-signals have not been made optional just because vehicles now come with blinkers and air-conditioning etc.

At least in Canada, motorcycle driving tests mandate the use of hand-signals to indicate your turns in addition to the blinkers. The reason for mandating hand-signals (at least on motorcycles) is that blinkers can fail without your being aware of it, and if you get hit because of that, you're the one that gets hurt and not the driver of the car that hit you.

In fact even today one sees bikers regularly using hand-signals in Canada. In the USA it's only some bikers who do this.

Talking about reversing without looking back and putting your other hand behind the passenger seat, that is also not correct. Driving tests both in the USA and Canada still mandate that method of reversing. If you fail to put your hand behind the passenger seat and turn your head around it's an immediate fail!

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Old 4th December 2015, 20:25   #44
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Default Re: Automotive Zeitgeist...or how older driving practices have changed today

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SS-Traveller, hand-signals have not been made optional just because vehicles now come with blinkers and air-conditioning etc.
Motorcycles need hand signals. 4-wheelers do not. At least in Australia, sticking your arm out of the window is considered hazardous driving and endangering yourself. And it is mandatory for motorcycle riders to also use the turn indicators, irrespective of using hand signals or not.

In India, unfortunately, the turn signal is considered to be just an option.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tilt View Post
Talking about reversing without looking back and putting your other hand behind the passenger seat, that is also not correct. Driving tests both in the USA and Canada still mandate that method of reversing. If you fail to put your hand behind the passenger seat and turn your head around it's an immediate fail!
You're correct about that - in many countries, a driving test will require the examinee to turn around and do a visual check - as also do a walkaround of the car before getting into the driver's seat and reversing. But where responsible driving by an already licensed driver is concerned, the mirrors, sensors and cameras suffice for most if used judiciously and in combination. 20-30 years ago, those things did not exist, so reversing was indeed expected to be always by the traditional method.

Last edited by SS-Traveller : 4th December 2015 at 20:27.
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Old 7th December 2015, 12:29   #45
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Default Re: Automotive Zeitgeist...or how older driving practices have changed today

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Originally Posted by SS-Traveller View Post
Motorcycles need hand signals. 4-wheelers do not. At least in Australia, sticking your arm out of the window is considered hazardous driving and endangering yourself. And it is mandatory for motorcycle riders to also use the turn indicators, irrespective of using hand signals or not.

In India, unfortunately, the turn signal is considered to be just an option.


You're correct about that - in many countries, a driving test will require the examinee to turn around and do a visual check - as also do a walkaround of the car before getting into the driver's seat and reversing. But where responsible driving by an already licensed driver is concerned, the mirrors, sensors and cameras suffice for most if used judiciously and in combination. 20-30 years ago, those things did not exist, so reversing was indeed expected to be always by the traditional method.
Absolutely! By the way, I was not necessarily disagreeing with what you posted - I was just elaborating and clarifying some of the nuances.

In India it's not just turn signals that are "options", but also working tail-lights.

I have also noticed many people driving at twilight, or even when it gets properly dark, driving without their headlights. I am guessing that these are people who were already on the road when it was still bright. They continue to drive as it gets darker and darker and it completely slips their mind to turn on their headlights. For this one reason, I am of the opinion that automatic headlights should become a default feature of all vehicles. Of course that will never happen

Cheers
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