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Old 11th December 2015, 14:48   #241
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Default re: Delhi: Odd & Even numbered cars to drive on alternate days*Edit: website launched for feedback*

Green tribunal says "no new diesel vehicles to be registered in Delhi."

Source: http://www.ndtv.com/delhi-news/shoul...-lateststories

Now i'm not sure if this is a final order or is it a suggestion of the green tribunal. Would really appreciate if someone could confirm this.
Such an order could have serious consequences, specially if it includes private cab operators as well. No new diesel cabs in Delhi??!!

Of the manufacturers, Mahindra would be the worst hit, even more if this plan is implemented on a pan-India basis. All their diesel SUVs and no buyers for them.
So no more new Toyota, Mahindra, Audi, BMW, Merc. etc. SUVs for Delhites.

On a different note, wouldn't the second hand car market for diesel vehicles be booming in Delhi now?
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Old 11th December 2015, 15:06   #242
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Default re: Delhi: Odd & Even numbered cars to drive on alternate days*Edit: website launched for feedback*

Quote:
Originally Posted by fine69 View Post
Does anyone have any legit source of statistics around how much heavy vehicles contribute to emissions compared to cars, trucks, double-axle, multi-axle etc.?

When we halve the number of cars on road how much emission are we going to control for that day? Does anyone have the number for cars that ply in delhi within a day?

Any data around how much debris & dust contribute to pollution?
See my earlier post in this thread.

There is no single source of information on this topic but factual information is freely available on Internet if one knows where to look.

Dust and construction activities currently contribute about 45% in and around Delhi.

The US EPA white papers are a good start for learning about emission ranges of vehicles, as is the UN FCCC site for case studies.

This infographic provides a suggested Delhi specific approach to achieve 50% reduction:

Name:  Screenshot 20151211 14.54.28.png
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Old 11th December 2015, 15:11   #243
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Default re: Delhi: Odd & Even numbered cars to drive on alternate days*Edit: website launched for feedback*

The NGT is prone to passing orders like this that are myopic and impossible to implement. For example ,

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/indian...d-delhi-2.html (National Green Tribunal says, 10 year old Diesel Vehicles banned in Delhi)

The better option is
1. Stringent emission laws and control for industries, construction projects and also vehicles.
2. Develop a robust and reliable public transport system that has excellent reach.
3. Enable park and ride facilities at all public transport locations.
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Old 11th December 2015, 16:16   #244
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Default re: Delhi: Odd & Even numbered cars to drive on alternate days*Edit: website launched for feedback*

Delhi makes it to the top of the list when it comes to pollution levels. Other Indian cities are not far behind. USA Today article
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Old 11th December 2015, 16:17   #245
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Default re: Delhi: Odd & Even numbered cars to drive on alternate days*Edit: website launched for feedback*

http://m.economictimes.com/news/poli...w/50115310.cms
I'll just leave this here.
According to the article, private cars contribute to 10% of the pollution. Trucks contribute a significant fraction.

I'll repeat myself: Controlling overloading and have strict emission tests of commercial vehicles will have a positive effect.
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Old 11th December 2015, 16:46   #246
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Default re: Delhi: Odd & Even numbered cars to drive on alternate days*Edit: website launched for feedback*

Feel, no matter what options people put forward. You cant 'force' people to stop using their cars unless the public transport system proves to be an easier/less hassle option.

For car owners using a packed Metro/Bus, standing for a long period of time, is not going to be an option.

People in London/Hong Kong dont use their cars because of the hassle involved in parking/cost etc, while the tube/MTR is so much more convenient.
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Old 11th December 2015, 17:29   #247
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Default re: Delhi: Odd & Even numbered cars to drive on alternate days*Edit: website launched for feedback*

Quote:
Originally Posted by greatgyan View Post
Green tribunal says "no new diesel vehicles to be registered in Delhi."
You are sort of jumping the gun.

This makes the above statement a lot more clear:
Quote:
"In order to curb pollution, NGT directs Centre, state governments against buying diesel vehicles"
Source: http://www.ibnlive.com/news/india/in...s-1175726.html

There is no restriction on private owners buying diesel vehicles(yet).

IMO, maintaining the health of vehicles and running periodic emission tests should be given precedence to such blanket bans.

As for the petrol vs diesel debate w.r.t emissions, here's some information.

Quote:
Despite much debate over which car, petrol or diesel, is cleaner, weighing up the advantages and disadvantages is not easy. For example, diesel cars have been promoted, as they produce less CO and HC on average when compared to petrol cars, and they have greater fuel economy producing less CO2 per km. However recent health concerns about particulate matter have given diesels a less environmentally-friendly image, as have the higher emissions of nitrogen oxides compared with petrol cars. As a comparison, petrol cars produce virtually no particulate matter, take longer to warm up, produce more carbon dioxide per mile on average, and emissions of the regulated pollutants are higher.
Name:  Emissions.JPG
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(The text under the Team-BHP watermark reads: * Petrol cars without catalysts have been given a relative value of 100 for comparison)

Source: http://www.air-quality.org.uk/26.php

If my experiences in Bangalore are anything to go by, cleaning the sand off of road shoulders will contribute immensely to better quality of air. Also, not allowing transportation of sand on HTVs with an open top will also help. The cleaner we keep our roads, the lesser the dust that will be kicked up by the vehicles.

Last edited by ashwin.terminat : 11th December 2015 at 17:32.
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Old 11th December 2015, 17:40   #248
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Default re: Delhi: Odd & Even numbered cars to drive on alternate days*Edit: website launched for feedback*

Quote:
Originally Posted by landcruiser123 View Post
http://m.economictimes.com/news/poli...w/50115310.cms
I'll just leave this here.
According to the article, private cars contribute to 10% of the pollution. Trucks contribute a significant fraction.

I'll repeat myself: Controlling overloading and have strict emission tests of commercial vehicles will have a positive effect.
So we are banning half the cars even when trucks/two-wheelers contribute more to pollution, awesome!!

I had said something similar in the very first page of this thread. We aren't going to stop trucks from entering or passing through Delhi because of whatever reason but we can definitely put an ill thoughtout ban on cars, way to go!!

If they were to put stricter emission related controls, shut down the plants/factories that pollute and control the dust on the road then this wouldn't be necessary. But then its always easy to target those who aren't going to revolt much.

I'm REALLY looking forward to taking my car out on 4th Jan to see what's the level of implementation and how many odd-numbered cars are actually stopped by cops.
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Old 11th December 2015, 17:54   #249
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Default re: Delhi: Odd & Even numbered cars to drive on alternate days*Edit: website launched for feedback*

Quote:
Originally Posted by ashwin.terminat View Post
You are sort of jumping the gun.

This makes the above statement a lot more clear.
Yes, I agree, currently it's only for the government vehicles.
But they are looking at a proposal suggesting a complete ban on diesel vehicles.
The Delhi high court has decided to hear that plea on the 15th Dec.

So its being considered and very much on the radar of the concerned authorities.
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Old 11th December 2015, 18:21   #250
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Default re: Delhi: Odd & Even numbered cars to drive on alternate days*Edit: website launched for feedback*

I read somewhere that it is still unclear whether the rule would apply to only Delhi Registered cars or all cars? I thought this was to be decided on the 10th, but I havent seen anything yet?

Anybody heard anything on this?

thanks
Jeroen
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Old 11th December 2015, 21:18   #251
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Smile re: Delhi: Odd & Even numbered cars to drive on alternate days*Edit: website launched for feedback*

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeroen View Post
I read somewhere that it is still unclear whether the rule would apply to only Delhi Registered cars or all cars? I thought this was to be decided on the 10th, but I havent seen anything yet?

Anybody heard anything on this?

thanks
Jeroen
Hey Jeroen, the blueprint will be released on 25th Dec where all rules applicable will be clear. Wait'n'watch.
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Old 11th December 2015, 21:38   #252
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Default re: Delhi: Odd & Even numbered cars to drive on alternate days*Edit: website launched for feedback*

Quote:
Originally Posted by fine69 View Post
So we are banning half the cars even when trucks/two-wheelers contribute more to pollution, awesome!!

If they were to put stricter emission related controls, shut down the plants/factories that pollute and control the dust on the road then this wouldn't be necessary. But then its always easy to target those who aren't going to revolt much.
Fine69, I just wish if you had read the entire thread. It has been repeated by multiple members that a string of steps has been committed by the Delhi Govt which includes:

- Vaccum cleaning of Roads(PWD Only). (This will take time since these machines are not readily available.)
- Commercial vehicles/Trucks will be allowed only after 11pm compared to 9pm now.
- Commercial vehicles will be heavily challaned at the entry point and allowed to enter, since turning them around will make goods/commodities price sky rocket. On Next instance, it will not be allowed to enter.
- They are imposing a fine of 5000 on anyone found burning garbage. This will be reported by public through the app they have already launched.
- They have already given notice to Coal plants to shutdown within 7 days. They also have made alternate arrangements for power due to this shutdown.
- PUC will be implemented more strictly. PUC checking center will be connected to a centralized server and real time measurements will be sent to the server and upon validation, PUC certificate will be printed.
- PUC Tagging will be implemented where cameras will read your PUC and challan vehicles found flouting the norms.
- 6000 addl buses will be deployed on the road from 1st Jan as an interim measure. 10,000 new buses will be put into service within 6 months.

These are few of the measures being taken by the Govt while they try the Odd/Even formula temporarily for 15 days. They are working in the background to clean up mess spread by inaction of previous govts. Give them a real chance to succeed. It now or never !!!
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Old 11th December 2015, 22:18   #253
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Default re: Delhi: Odd & Even numbered cars to drive on alternate days*Edit: website launched for feedback*

Quote:
Originally Posted by ashwin.terminat View Post
If my experiences in Bangalore are anything to go by, cleaning the sand off of road shoulders will contribute immensely to better quality of air. Also, not allowing transportation of sand on HTVs with an open top will also help. The cleaner we keep our roads, the lesser the dust that will be kicked up by the vehicles.
Completely agree with you. Also in Bangalore if roads that have been dug up are relaid soon, there would be cleaner air. The road from ABB to Hoodi has only one usable lane. The other is all dust and stones. Impatient cabbies and truck drivers drive over this to get to front of the queue throwing up so much of dust that the view for others behind becomes bad. Just imagine the situation of 2-wheeler riders and pedestrians on the road. They would have to breathe that dusty air. Why can't the road be just relaid?
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Old 12th December 2015, 13:35   #254
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Default re: Delhi: Odd & Even numbered cars to drive on alternate days*Edit: website launched for feedback*

Rs 5,000 fine for drivers who violate the odd-even rule during trial period in Delhi.

This fine will be enforced through provisions in the Air (Prevention and Control of Pollution) Act.

Quote:
The Delhi Government is also planning on extending section 194 of the Motor Vehicles Act which restricts entry of commercial vehicles to Delhi at certain times, to private cars. Under this section, the government can impose a fine of Rs 2,000 or more for violating this rule.
http://overdrive.in/news/rs-5000-fin...riod-in-delhi/

Last edited by volkman10 : 12th December 2015 at 13:36.
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Old 12th December 2015, 13:38   #255
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Default re: Delhi: Odd & Even numbered cars to drive on alternate days*Edit: website launched for feedback*

Quote:
Originally Posted by hocuspocus View Post
Fine69, I just wish if you had read the entire thread. It has been repeated by multiple members that a string of steps has been committed by the Delhi Govt which includes...
What I'm trying to get to is getting mixed up, let me give it a last try.

The current measure that the govt has taken is not a corrective action but correction. Correction or Containment Action suppresses the problem but is not a long-term measure. If one wishes to eliminate the root cause then a corrective action is needed.

Before you argue, a correction is definitely needed even if one has to take corrective action to temporarily recover from the problem. However, if one has not done a proper root-cause analysis and there is limited statistics backing up decision-making then all this goes out of the window.

Even in today's newspaper IIT Kanpur study has been referenced that if private vehicles are only contributing 2.5% then why make such a big population go through all this hassle.

Now coming to certain points, 1000 trucks passing from Delhi between an 8 hr window vs same no. of vehicles passing through in a 6 six hr window, how does this make sense?

Heavy challaning? Are you kidding me! Challan money hasn't been a deterrent ever, it only makes the cops happier. When implementation sucks no amount of theory is going to help. For someone who is willing to implement the odd-even rule and that means haggling with lakhs of people on roads which in turn needs thousands of cops and even more volunteers wouldn't we want to do something that has a bigger impact but needs relatively less effort?

Vaccum cleaning, stricter PUC checks, preventing garbage burning, challaning or preventing heavy polluting vehicles to enter etc. needs less than 50% of effort and targets less than 10% of the population when compared to implementing odd-even rule on private cars.

Without wanting to take this further, there's something called a Pareto principle. Even folks with common-sense usually go by it in day-to-day life without knowing about it.

However, instead of dealing with the 'significant few' causes, if one wants to solve for 'trivial many' then it becomes a joke, like it has now.

I mean numbers are clearly telling you what to do but let us try to eat the elephant in one go instead of adopting a structured and rational problem solving approach.

I'm a big fan of most of the big and small steps that this govt. has taken but whenever somebody does something that they can't back up with data, then my loyalty doesn't save them from criticism.

By the way, most of my friends in my close whatsapp group have decided to get another set of number plates made because the cops aren't going to stop cars and check their registration papers. When I thought about it, they are actually right, cops aren't going to stop them and all they have to do is swap the plates every night.
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