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Old 15th December 2015, 17:43   #31
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Default Re: Delhi: Diesel car ban?

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Originally Posted by sourav9385 View Post
Et Voila!

http://www.ndtv.com/delhi-news/will-...-lateststories



Am I crazy or does this seem like the stupidest thing ever?
I was just reading this. This seems really knee-jerk.

Pretty much every diesel luxury car from the likes of Merc, BMW and Audi will be banned in Delhi as none of them have diesel engines less than 2 litre

Don't know where it is going to lead to. I don't know of any country which has done this so abruptly

Last edited by Mohan Mathew A : 15th December 2015 at 17:56.
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Old 15th December 2015, 18:35   #32
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Default Re: Delhi: Diesel car ban?

Delhi - one of the foremost car markets of the country won't have Scorpios, Safaris, Fortuners ,Xuv500, Cayennes , Q7, diesel Mercs and the list goes on if the SC proposal becomes the rule. I agree pollution check is our first priority but I also feel for those who had booked and were waiting for their cars in the above category to be delivered.
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Old 15th December 2015, 19:01   #33
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The problem with our governments is just one.

Policy making.

What kind of auto policy we have?

Our governments can only **** us up and then expect us to clean up the mess.

Price to pay for being an Indian?😡😡
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Old 15th December 2015, 22:19   #34
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Default Re: NGT and Diesel Cars ban

The SIAM can appeal right? The honorable SC shouldn't look to implement such measures. Rather than asking the government to vacuum clean the road and lay pavements, we're looking to ban diesel cars with no solid reasoning behind the move.

There are many things to do before starting trying to debate about petrol v/s diesel.

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Innova well be history
You ought to remember that Toyota sells more petrol Innovas and Fortuners in SE Asia, Middle east, Africa and South America. They'll be forced to get the petrol engines. They'll import them from Thailand.

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Scross shall be crossed
Suzuki has the petrol engine ready.

But with our obsessions with diesels, we'll never let go.
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Old 15th December 2015, 22:31   #35
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Default Re: NGT and Diesel Cars ban

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Originally Posted by landcruiser123 View Post

You ought to remember that Toyota sells more petrol Innovas and Fortuners in SE Asia, Middle east, Africa and South America. They'll be forced to get the petrol engines. They'll import them from Thailand.

Suzuki has the petrol engine ready.
All cars sells more petrol variants elsewhere but our diesel policy of subsidy make diesel so attractive that Innova Scross et all would not sell in petrol engines. I am sure 99% of buyer here never bought the diesel cars because of their torquey engines, all had $in their minds.
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Old 15th December 2015, 22:36   #36
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Default Re: Delhi: Diesel car ban?

Okay, let me get this straight, they want to ban new Euro IV conforming diesel cars, so that people continue to drive Euro II diesels?
Not very bright, are they?
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Old 16th December 2015, 07:16   #37
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Default Re: Delhi: Diesel car ban?

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Originally Posted by landcruiser123 View Post
The SIAM can appeal right? The honorable SC shouldn't look to implement such measures. Rather than asking the government to vacuum clean the road and lay pavements, we're looking to ban diesel cars with no solid reasoning behind the move.
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Okay, let me get this straight, they want to ban new Euro IV conforming diesel cars, so that people continue to drive Euro II diesels?
Not very bright, are they?
Manufacturing, selling and reselling of cars is any Government's bread, butter and sugar. It won't let go of that in any circumstances. In addition to that, I suppose that Delhi is a big resell/retail market of automobile parts. That means a dip in more revenue.

Someone approached the Court to demand a ban on sale of diesel vehicles, the Court studied the merits of the case, and then ordered a ban on diesel cars above 2,000cc engine capacity. Then the aggrieved will file an appeal with a higher Court or same Court. The Court will consider the appeal, ask some questions like "How can the legislature be allowed to permit manufacturing of cars and ban its sale?"; "How can a right to practice any profession be denied to the people?", "On what basis did the Court banned cars with engine capacity above 2,000cc?", etc, and the appeal will be allowed.

Thus, in a system having design flaws, everything will work out well. The NGOs would demand a ban, a lower Court will allow it, higher Court will dismiss it, apex Court will excuse itself from citing its incompetence to formulate a policy, people will keep on buying vehicles and complaining about pollution, and Government will be busy in attempts to garner revenue.
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Old 16th December 2015, 08:02   #38
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Default Re: Delhi: Diesel car ban?

Just after the odd and even rule was announced, the Times carried statistics of the factors contributing to the pollution. If I remember correctly, vehicular pollution is just about 6%, with coal powered plants and construction contributing in double digits. Also within the vehicular pollution, trucks and two wheelers are the biggest polluters.

So Delhi government is trying to curb around 2% pollution by its knee jerk reaction to the problem.

Kejriwal cannot ask the power plants to shut and leave Delhi without power. Trucks and two wheelers cannot be curbed because of various 'reasons'. Banning private vehicles has immediate visibility and political mileage.

Last edited by honeybee : 16th December 2015 at 08:06.
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Old 16th December 2015, 09:14   #39
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Default Re: Delhi: Diesel car ban?

I wonder if the honorable SC has the resources or procedures to assess all aspects before coming up these type of suggestions.
For example, what if a potential SUV buyer ends up buying 2 smaller diesel cars? Amount of pollution emitted remains (or even more) besides adding to the congestion.
Have they done the study of what is the contribution to the pollution from new SUVs? Probably less then 0.01%?
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Old 16th December 2015, 16:06   #40
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Default Re: Delhi: Diesel car ban?

Its a big jolt to the likes of Tata and Toyota and specially Mahindra.
Mahindra's entire lineup is diesel and major products like Bolero, Scorpio, XUV500, Xylo are all over 2000 cc.

Wonder how the private cab operators would react to having Innova banned.
Considering the fact that Innova is used extensively as a taxi across the entire country.

No more new BMW, Audi, Merc SUVs on the roads of Delhi. I'm sure that Delhi would have been a major market for these luxury car manufacturers. This ruling will have an adverse affect on their sales as well.

This could lead to a temporary reduction of prices for models like the safari, XUV500, scorpio, innova etc. in the other cities of the country, to clear out the unsold inventory of Delhi.
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Old 16th December 2015, 18:56   #41
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Default Re: Delhi: Diesel car ban?

I like the idea of banning registration of diesel cars from a purely selfish point of view. When I bought my first car, the road tax was round Rs100/year irrespective of its cost or engine size. Today I have to spend quite a lot (between 10%-25%) of the ex-showroom price as road tax. To me it makes no sense.

So why do I like it? Because now I have no qualms in getting a high value diesel registered in Uttarakhand and I save at least 75% of the tax. The best part is as a Delhi resident it is legal!
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Old 16th December 2015, 21:38   #42
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Default Re: Delhi: Diesel car ban?

Okay, so diesel pollutes.
Granted...
Why ban diesel cars altogether? Why not raise the prices of diesel? This will lead to
1. purchasing of diesel vehicles only by people who can afford it or need the superior fuel economy of diesel because it makes financial sense.
2. Purchasing by people who can afford it
3. Reduce pollution & give our environment a fighting chance
4. Provide incentive to the industry to invent newer, efficient non polluting means of personal/private transport (bicycles@100kmph anyone? - just a fanciful thought !)

For the rest , we'll have to devise new ways to keep our commute economical & short... Car pooling, public transport, switching to a two wheeler , cycling to work or shifting closer to workplace maybe, all for the good of the environment.

Just my two cents

Cheers!
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Old 16th December 2015, 23:05   #43
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Default Re: Delhi: Diesel car ban?

Enough & more has been said regarding this matter.. there will always be 99% people calling this step as sudden, harsh or unconstitutional. Think of it this way, the pollution has built up to such a level only due to the fact that the government waited or didn't care, in any case all unpopular decisions are called abrupt or harsh.

I also know 99% of members in this forum love the thrum & kick of diesel (not I though, but I fully understand why they feel so) but its again time to face facts, diesel came into the popularity scene only because it is so much more efficient than petrol, cheaper to purchase and yet more powerful with far better torque compared to gasoline. All these factors made sure than consumers didn't flinch while paying close to 15-20% extra for diesel engines and the manufacturers laughed their way to the banks.

The initial theories of diesel being cleaner to run than petrol (as put out by European agencies) were all but true. It was known from the beginning that diesel being an oil has far more impurities than gasoline and when burnt much more NOx compounds go into the air. NOx directly affects the lungs of people, leading to respiratory disorders, illnesses, itchy eyes, running nose etc, over the long haul it will do irreparable damage to the ecosystem. Its already too late and if steps are not taken now then there wont be an earth to call home. Petrol usage must also be equally discouraged by govt/reduced by people.

The thing is that solutions are always black or white, there can be no grey areas when seeking a true solution. All the public does is seek loopholes to exploit around new rules & regulations -ban new diesels > seek 2nd hand from neighbouring states, odd & even number plate > alter number plates/buy 2nd vehicle, ban SUV > manufacture hatchbacks with large ground clearance, ban greater than 2000cc engines > make 1999cc engines. All these perversities have to STOP, period. There is only one true solution to any problem.. the rest are just excuses, there are 4-5 major cities in India in true danger of becoming unliveable and the process has already started. Because there is very little support from the government to develop more cities for even distribution of population, I hope the citizens take things seriously & co-operate by whatever means necessary to end pollution even if it means a complete ban on new vehicles.

All these measures doesn't mean we no longer love to drive, not at all.. it only means we want to reserve that drive to when its necessary so that each time we have cleaner roads & purer air to enjoy the drive all the more.

Last edited by dark.knight : 16th December 2015 at 23:11.
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Old 17th December 2015, 00:15   #44
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Default Re: Delhi: Diesel car ban?

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Originally Posted by dark.knight View Post
Enough & more has been said regarding this matter.. there will always be 99% people calling this step as sudden, harsh or unconstitutional. Think of it this way, the pollution has built up to such a level only due to the fact that the government waited or didn't care, in any case all unpopular decisions are called abrupt or harsh.
Asking people to dance to Gangnam style two hours every day will be very unpopular and harsh. But it won't do anything for pollution. Just because a decision is unpopular and harsh, does not mean, it will work


Quote:
I also know 99% of members in this forum love the thrum & kick of diesel (not I though, but I fully understand why they feel so) but its again time to face facts, diesel came into the popularity scene only because it is so much more efficient than petrol, cheaper to purchase and yet more powerful with far better torque compared to gasoline. All these factors made sure than consumers didn't flinch while paying close to 15-20% extra for diesel engines and the manufacturers laughed their way to the banks.
It does not really matter what people like

Quote:
The initial theories of diesel being cleaner to run than petrol (as put out by European agencies) were all but true. It was known from the beginning that diesel being an oil has far more impurities than gasoline and when burnt much more NOx compounds go into the air. NOx directly affects the lungs of people, leading to respiratory disorders, illnesses, itchy eyes, running nose etc, over the long haul it will do irreparable damage to the ecosystem. Its already too late and if steps are not taken now then there wont be an earth to call home. Petrol usage must also be equally discouraged by govt/reduced by people.
For European and western cities, cars contribute to over 30% of Particulate matter. However for Delhi, they are at 8%.

Quote:
The thing is that solutions are always black or white, there can be no grey areas when seeking a true solution. All the public does is seek loopholes to exploit around new rules & regulations -ban new diesels > seek 2nd hand from neighbouring states, odd & even number plate > alter number plates/buy 2nd vehicle, ban SUV > manufacture hatchbacks with large ground clearance, ban greater than 2000cc engines > make 1999cc engines. All these perversities have to STOP, period. There is only one true solution to any problem.. the rest are just excuses, there are 4-5 major cities in India in true danger of becoming unliveable and the process has already started. Because there is very little support from the government to develop more cities for even distribution of population, I hope the citizens take things seriously & co-operate by whatever means necessary to end pollution even if it means a complete ban on new vehicles.

All these measures doesn't mean we no longer love to drive, not at all.. it only means we want to reserve that drive to when its necessary so that each time we have cleaner roads & purer air to enjoy the drive all the more.
The problem is, even if all cars were banned in Delhi on all days, it would just improve the air by 8%. If you look at the readings from the sensors they peak at night, when trucks pass through. The dust over the satellite times is not diesel smoke, but the construction byproduct.


The real harsh and unpopular decisions are not been taken. They will not be taken. Nobody will fine a builder 1 crore for not taking care of dust. Nobody will impound trucks not meant for Delhi and still coming in inspite of Supreme court orders. These are the harsh decisions which may work.

The govt will cry hoarse about farmers burning stubble, but are not willing to spend a few crores to buy machines to clear harvested machines so that they do not have to burn stubble.

There has been only one formal study regarding pollution, and what that study found has been totally disregarded in all these knee jerk reactions.
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Old 17th December 2015, 01:08   #45
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Default Re: Delhi: Diesel car ban?

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The problem is, even if all cars were banned in Delhi on all days, it would just improve the air by 8%. If you look at the readings from the sensors they peak at night, when trucks pass through. The dust over the satellite times is not diesel smoke, but the construction byproduct.

The real harsh and unpopular decisions are not been taken. They will not be taken. Nobody will fine a builder 1 crore for not taking care of dust. Nobody will impound trucks not meant for Delhi and still coming in inspite of Supreme court orders. These are the harsh decisions which may work.
Point taken, but the problem here is that trucks & transport lorries are unstoppable anywhere. The transport industry which includes buses & trucks of different sizes & shapes often get away due to the fact that they move people and essential goods for people, be it milk, vegetables, petroleum or construction materials. I simply cannot conceive of a way to reduce their frequency without them going on a total strike or without essential services being hit.

As far as the construction industry goes yes they should be tamed but again how? They have their lobbyists in all the right places, not to mention proximity with the "important" people who sell them vast swathes of land at a bargain. This all began with the grand plan of making a so called NCR which only increased in area by the day, they then boasted of world-class connectivity to satellite towns and other nearby cities - the situation today is the result of opening up easy access with neighbouring areas. Also builders have pitched tents all across NCR building massive 1000-2000 flat complexes which would mean thousands upon thousands of trucks delivering coal, cement, sand, diesel and every other dangerous pollutant to the sites. Nothing can be done here either.

I'm no supporter of the ban, but its obvious that the govt is targeting the area where the resistance would be the weakest. If the pollution levels fall even by 5% its a start, maybe it can set a useful example for other cities to follow and create more awareness on how each industry be it factories, thermal plants, vehicles or construction contribute evenly to pollution. A small start has to be made somehow, even if partially illogical.
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