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Old 16th December 2015, 12:48   #1
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Default Unpollute and decongest Delhi

Lets face it. The Diwali night readings on pollution in our city were horrifying. When I read "999", I looked out and thought, "Well, I think the trip meter for the pollution centers flips over at 1000. This could be much higher, and I would believe it."
As for me, I do my part. I keep my vehicle in shape, I try to influence other people to do the same, but everyday on the road, I see hundreds of cars, two wheelers, trucks, cabs, all causing the pollution clock to tick ever nearer to the red.

And then we get sweeping and ill justified solutions from very strange people to ban 10 year old cars, or start odd-even commuting, or ban diesels altogether. And there are threads on about it.
Lets get the gripes out of the way first.
We are common people. We pay through our noses so that the government has money to give us infra, services etc. However, the first people who are trod upon when draconia is called for is us? Every time?
In the present context, what of the PUC bodies, what of the Manufacturers, what about the DTC and Auto wallahs and the taxi guys?
1. PUC - A joke
2.Manufacturers - 10 year car ban smiley, the latest emoticon in the auto-lobby people cellphones.
3. Auto guys - The filthiest bunch of cheats, a majority of them, looking at a killing soon.
4.DTC - works/doesn't work/no bus/10 buses in 30 seconds/crash-kill/breakdown/jam up.You name it, they do it.
5. Taxi - Autos with delusions of grandeur

I hear hurrahs for measures from people who will not be impacted by it, groans of derision from people like me.
A lot of people say, at least someone is doing something!
But that's like saying "this office is now paperless. Everything is on the computer", and taking away all paper and stationary, when he only has a typewriter. Well...
What I propose, is a discussion focusing on what can be done in delhi? If someone has spent some time in Delhi, or lives here, there's a hundred things that can done over the next year that can completely streamline the system. I'll just pen down my own thoughts, in-exhasutive as they are:

1. Centralize the PUC. And make it mandatory for any vehicle in Delhi to have one. Go back to the stuck on windshield sticker. Do something like every month the sticker gets a new mark on it, else we wont be able to see where we're going.

2. Strengthen the Metro. Increase frequency, and the number of 8 coached cars. Start the next phase soon to decongest the hub, rajiv chowk. If you're going across the city, if you get on after this place, you'll be packed like sardines. Everybody HAS to go ANYWHERE from rajiv chowk. Thats not good planning, and not trying to fix it is even worse.

3. Construction and encroachments along major roads. A law and order failure, more or less. This ought to be the easiest and fastest to fix up. This would include random, As-I-Wish auto stands, bus stops, road side parking etc.

4. Strict implementation of laws and fines. Get people in lanes, being sensible. Anybody can jump a red light, go the wrong side, as per the current desire.

5. Look at traffic bottlenecks. Some of them are fairly apparent in demonstrating why. For eg: the RTR flyover. Now there's a lobby of residents who are opposing any plans for that which involves them losing spaces that they have encroached upon, illegally. And why is the government not smashing that lobby's opinion? I dont know.
Or the flyover after ashram, where the bus will stop at the entry of the flyover, effectively making the entry a one lane! Aashram, under the flyover, that is UNFATHOMABLE! How many years has construction been going on here?? Geez!

6. DTC - Get reliable buses. Comfortable buses. Which, if they're air-conned, have the air-con working. Legitimate frequencies. Last mile connectivity integrated with the Metro. And most of all, drivers who drive in lanes, and not make bus stops on ring roads a 3 row "bugger off" for everyone else on the road.


So much that needs to be done. Do chip in.
Compliant cars, not spewing out smoke in a group of 479 at a red-light while being stationary for half an hour, will definitely help in bringing down the readings. People who know that there may be 10% more difficulty using public transport, but will be more cost effective, and less strenuous, will definitely switch to the metro. I do. But I cannot be forced to spend 2 hours for a commute, instead of 30 minutes to commute, EVERY other day.
Make a change, but make sense as well, please.
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Old 16th December 2015, 17:47   #2
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Default re: Unpollute and decongest Delhi

Actually these are some well understood and beaten to death ways that people have known for long. Unfortunately, the political class does not have the stomach to take very strong decisions and that in turn comes in because we, the denizens of this country, are highly self centered. Something that does not hurt me now and at this imminent moment directly does not bother me. You can take as many decisions for the good or everyone but I would rather you do not put me personally into any hardships. I will not compromise.

And it is this bottomline that causes the status quo to keep running although every knows what needs to be done and even acknowledges in the private about the need to do so. To make any meaningful change everyone needs to get onboard.
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Old 16th December 2015, 19:06   #3
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Originally Posted by Zappo View Post
Actually ----snip---- onboard.
Unfortunately, have to agree with you. However, I would like to say that there is a degree of hardship and inconvenience, beyond which things become undoable, which is where the current knee-jerkish reactions seem to start for most people. Pollution in Delhi is not something that has come up this year, it's a perennial issue, but the powers that be seemingly want to start from defcon 3.
The diesel cars ban, that is something I am on board with. But I would expect concurrent work on other modes rather than televised pontification that the elected seem more interested in.
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Old 16th December 2015, 19:38   #4
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Default re: Unpollute and decongest Delhi

The Diesel vehicle ban is good for starters to help the situation stabilize I think. Banning the big trucks is even better. But in the long run, I think that CNG vehicles should have a free run as they are eco-friendly vehicles! Why has that point been forgotten? And also the powerful builder lobby thugs should be mandatorily forced to have cleaner dumper trucks which don't go around spreading their mud cargo's all over the place making the whole city dusty. It's a bane of all modern metropolises today. Among other dust mongers. Just my few cents.
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Old 16th December 2015, 19:59   #5
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Default re: Unpollute and decongest Delhi

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Originally Posted by mayankk View Post
We are common people. We pay through our noses so that the government has money to give us infra, services etc. However, the first people who are trod upon when draconia is called for is us? Every time?
I absolutely agree on your points. I am no expert on this. But just the way they have gone about these half hearted measures also show their lack of seriousness for the real problem and its solution. These measure just seem to make louder noise so that there can be an impression set, that they are thinking about it. One day they talk about one thing, the other they talk about another.

If they start stopping cars on Delhi roads for Odd and Even number challans, what would happen to Delhi traffic then. I mean effectively how many cars Police and the so called volunteers can stop in a day and will it not lead to more jams?

There are many many obvious steps like you have mentioned in your post that can help us solve this problem and people would love to pitch in, if it makes sense. But in this case it seems we are the one's only paying the price of their lack of effort and I am sorry but in this case I wouldn't want to comply.

They have just taken the easiest of the steps that will make loudest of the noise and will impact the softest of the targets (Us). They should rather work harder, use their so called brain and come up with approaches that if implemented right can with time, bring meaningful impacts.

This is like if a postman is not able to deliver you your post on time, he starts blaming you for not building your house in an easily approachable location and then eventually banning you from the list.

Rachit
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Old 16th December 2015, 21:41   #6
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Default re: Unpollute and decongest Delhi

See - diesels necessarily aren't the sole cause of the pollution. In many ways, they're cleaner than petrol vehicles (check out the stats for some of the cars on their UK website).
In fact, globally, diesels are gaining traction!

The key issue is that the solution is not on the right target. Given the little contribution diesel cars (private vehicles) give towards pollution, the Govt. is clearly ignoring the root causes:
- Dust
- Commercial vehicles - even the petrol ones spewing out thick white smoke, a sight that has become increasingly common in Mumbai. Why not ban commercial vehicles over a certain age, or have them undergo an annual certification?
This coupled with giving the traffic police the power to fine any errant vehicle (that is poorly maintained / spewing out smoke) will be effective in reducing corruption while getting the PUC renewed.
- Promote hybrid and CNG cars. Not by a mere rebate, but maybe a significant excise cut / registration cut. Ban VWAG Diesels
- Better public transport. The buses are the first to spew out thick black smoke!
and so on.

A lot of the points raised by mayankk are very valid and a lot more effective solutions than simply banning things.
Otherwise at this rate, given other challenging issues faced by the country and Govt. - such as population control - you never know what else the Govt. might just ban!
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Old 17th December 2015, 10:01   #7
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Default re: Unpollute and decongest Delhi

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Originally Posted by lamborghini View Post
See--------SNIP-------
Cross posting from the delhi diesel ban thread:
Quote:
Originally Posted by dark.knight View Post
Point taken, but the problem here is that trucks & transport lorries are unstoppable anywhere. The transport industry which includes buses & trucks of different sizes & shapes often get away due to the fact that they move people and essential goods for people, be it milk, vegetables, petroleum or construction materials. I simply cannot conceive of a way to reduce their frequency without them going on a total strike or without essential services being hit.

As far as the construction industry goes yes they should be tamed but again how? They have their lobbyists in all the right places, not to mention proximity with the "important" people who sell them vast swathes of land at a bargain. This all began with the grand plan of making a so called NCR which only increased in area by the day, they then boasted of world-class connectivity to satellite towns and other nearby cities - the situation today is the result of opening up easy access with neighbouring areas. Also builders have pitched tents all across NCR building massive 1000-2000 flat complexes which would mean thousands upon thousands of trucks delivering coal, cement, sand, diesel and every other dangerous pollutant to the sites. Nothing can be done here either.

I'm no supporter of the ban, but its obvious that the govt is targeting the area where the resistance would be the weakest. If the pollution levels fall even by 5% its a start, maybe it can set a useful example for other cities to follow and create more awareness on how each industry be it factories, thermal plants, vehicles or construction contribute evenly to pollution. A small start has to be made somehow, even if partially illogical.

Its not as if the governments are unaware of WHAT the problem is. They just find it more convenient to break the back of the ordinary folks. "Sab mile hue hain ji..."
Your and my money goes to a central stash. they cant dip into that, that would be unethical .So that is pushed to favored businesses. These as return offers line pockets and suits. Who would want to disrupt the circle?

This is what the problem is, and where it has arisen from. Everyone has been thinking they're too big for the small, daily issues. Pushing for investments into the country, bla bla ing on the world stage, having political fights. Everything is "policy", nothing on the micro level.
A prime example is gurgaon. I have seen this city rot right in front of my eyes. Billions of dollars worth of business, hundreds of MNCs, the prime educated of the country, but outside you have broken roads, unmanaged traffic, rowdy drivers, road rage, dust, smoke, jams, token amount of cops. You trundle through these thinking how much time today's punishment on the road is going to take, to sit in an air-conned cabin for 10 hours, and then back swimming through the same cesspool. a 10 hour working day becomes a 14 hour out of home day. Anywhere else, it would be a proper business park,designed to EASE business. Or the firms themselves would undertake some level of CSR to maintain a conducive commute, at least within their periphery. But here, huge buildings have come up in isolation, the firms are allowed to take advantage of lax , or adaptive authorities, to myopically focus on the bottom line.
So who's left to face the squeeze? Yep.

Last edited by mayankk : 17th December 2015 at 10:02.
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Old 17th December 2015, 10:15   #8
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Default re: Unpollute and decongest Delhi

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Originally Posted by mayankk View Post
The diesel cars ban, that is something I am on board with. But I would expect concurrent work on other modes rather than televised pontification that the elected seem more interested in.
Sorry mate I am not. I was in the NCR at Deepawali and pollution was horrendous. If fact driving back to Kanpur on 3rd December the signposts on the YE became fully clear only when I was approaching Mathura. Also, on my morning walk (I got at 6), I saw the haze, and also the air was bad.

The job of the SCI is not to define what technology to use. If the US demands that petrol and Diesel cars conform to the same standards, so can others. Our current standards are BS-IV a weakened Euro-IV (due to higher Sulphur being allowed in Diesel). If the vehicle meets that then allow it.

We have Euro-V (and possibly VI) Diesel being manufactured in India. So what is the delay. Also, I will like to see pollution stats of the ubiquitous 1300cc Diesel engine in India, against the Blue Tech Merc data. Why is Blue Tech not in India, our lousy fuel.

Are the courts doing anything to check the widespread adulteration of fuels? Very simple make Kerosene and Diesel prices about the same.

Last edited by sgiitk : 17th December 2015 at 10:17.
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Old 17th December 2015, 10:33   #9
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Default re: Unpollute and decongest Delhi

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Originally Posted by sgiitk View Post
Sorry mate I am not. I was in the NCR at Deepawali and pollution was horrendous. If fact driving back to Kanpur on 3rd December the signposts on the YE became fully clear only when I was approaching Mathura. Also, on my morning walk (I got at 6), I saw the haze, and also the air was bad.
And hence the proviso, that they do everything else as well, rather than "trials" and "programs".

Quote:
Originally Posted by sgiitk View Post
The job of the SCI is not to define what technology to use. If the US demands that petrol and Diesel cars conform to the same standards, so can others. Our current standards are BS-IV a weakened Euro-IV (due to higher Sulphur being allowed in Diesel). If the vehicle meets that then allow it.
Exactly. Get rid of the polluters. If you clear an MOT, ply. Else, park. Its not the job of the SCI, agreed. But as a measure, it should have come earlier on, if at all, from the body elect.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sgiitk View Post
We have Euro-V (and possibly VI) Diesel being manufactured in India. So what is the delay. Also, I will like to see pollution stats of the ubiquitous 1300cc Diesel engine in India, against the Blue Tech Merc data. Why is Blue Tech not in India, our lousy fuel.
Agree. Like I said, enforce PUC. You should see how cabbies, autos, and a majority of private cars bribe their way out from fender benders when cops arrive and ask for the RC, Ins, and PUC.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sgiitk View Post
Are the courts doing anything to check the widespread adulteration of fuels? Very simple make Kerosene and Diesel prices about the same.
Like you said, is it the courts job? But this has its own dedicated lobbies to protest against. The bodies that be will again cower and run, and put out more amazing restrictions on the most "adjusting". All to save time for the next jaunt.

Like I said, make sense too, rather than just be arbitrary. I cant even say the government doesn't have studies. There is one. But has been happily ignored.

Last edited by Gannu_1 : 17th December 2015 at 11:24. Reason: Please avoid quoting and responding inline. It is inconvenient to quote such a post and respond to it. Thanks!
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Old 17th December 2015, 11:44   #10
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Default re: Unpollute and decongest Delhi

The problem with public transport is that every citizen is a big cheapskate in his own weird way.
They want the luxury of being seated in an air-conditioned bus while paying just Rs10 to go from Noida to Gurgaon.

If there is a bus which charges them Rs 300 to got from Noida to Gurgaon, they won't take it, citing high fare; but at the same breath hail an Uber/Ola and have no qualms paying Rs 600.
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Old 17th December 2015, 12:16   #11
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Default re: Unpollute and decongest Delhi

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The problem with public transport is that every citizen is a big cheapskate in his own weird way.
They want the luxury of being seated in an air-conditioned bus while paying just Rs10 to go from Noida to Gurgaon.

If there is a bus which charges them Rs 300 to got from Noida to Gurgaon, they won't take it, citing high fare; but at the same breath hail an Uber/Ola and have no qualms paying Rs 600.
Hmm I am wondering, why is it that the metro as well as buses are packed beyond capacity? Maybe its because the people in those are not citizens, but sardines disguised as people infiltrating the human civilization to eventually establish the reign of the sardine king.
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Old 17th December 2015, 12:34   #12
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Default re: Unpollute and decongest Delhi

NCR requires a proper Public Transport system which can cater to masses. This is a necessity. Every other measure is just a temporary solution.

Invasion of cheap EMIs had brought cars within reach of masses, but the Public Transport deteriorated with each passing year. Just by increasing the number of buses on road, they are not doing any good. Increasing the frequency of Metro trains is not a solution either.

IMO, car buying process should become an expensive affair. Ask buyers to provide details of a proper parking place for their new car, and almost 99% of NCR buyers would step back.

Somebody rightly said here that PUC is a joke. Enforce it and increase the penalties manifold.

Instead of bringing in new rules every month, if the authorities can strictly enforce even 25% of the existing rules, NCR would become a place worth breathing in.
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Old 17th December 2015, 16:34   #13
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Default re: Unpollute and decongest Delhi

I believe there is a solution that could resolve the pollution and traffic problem to a great extent with much less inconvenience. The challenge is that the government would need to display a lot of political will to implement this and would have to stop making idiotic comparisons to foreign cities where the weather is different (long distance cycling and walking isnt a practical solution for Delhi given the heat) and salary levels are higher (to support hiking parking fees). My solution is a combination of using public transport and congestion fee but it is the implementation that will make all the difference.

First of all we need to realise that a realistic time frame of 3-6 months should be set to achieve the target rather than enforcing something overnight. The second thing is accepting that a comfortable life is a basic human desire and travelling in a dignified manner is a part of it. If people are willing to spend Rs 10L on a car and incur Rs. 7-8k per month on petrol even when they could have travelled by a bus at a fraction of a cost, they are doing it because of this desire. So with these opening remarks let me get straight to the plan.
Step 1: Conduct traffic survey to figure out the direction and volume of movement of traffic in the city. This shouldnt take more than 2-3 weeks. In parallel order several AC and non-AC buses (I am sure if subsidies for electricity, regularisation of illegal colonies without penalty, pay hike for legislators is rolled back, the money will become available). The buses if ordered immediately should be available in 5-6 months.

Step 2: Announce a hike in the metro fares of around 50%-100% (or may be a little more if required so as to be somewhere in the middle of current metro fares and car travel cost) at the end of this 6 month period. Higher metro fares would immediately make a lot of people drop the metro. This will prevent overcrowding of metro and the car users who currently use car for the comfort it provides will suddenly find it a more attractive option (comfortable yet less costly than car use). This is, however, also a step that will attract most criticism as it will be touted as anti-poor but this is where the political will is tested.

Step 3: The buses that we ordered 6 months ago have now arrived. Deploy them immediately at the end of this 6 month period. A lot of the population that cant afford the metro now will find an alternate means of transport in this higher number of buses. BTW, since the number of cars on road will have decreased because car users have moved to metro (and if they haven't, I will suggest how to employ the stick), the buses can move on the roads much quicker making them more efficient.

Step 4: congestion fee- I know there would be some people who just can't give up their car, some people for whom public transport is below dignity and tourists who have come to the city or are crossing the city. For these people have an online facility where they can buy a permit (against vehicle for an amount like Rs. 300 per day) for a day/week/month at one go. When you buy this permit you will get a unique code on you mobile (once fed into a website by police, this code will identify details like vehicle number, permit duration etc.). Because of this online record that is created, the government will have a good idea of how many vehicles are expected on the road on a certain day. The traffic police can conduct random checks and the fines for not possessing this permit should be steep. The government can grant specific exemptions to disabled people, private vehicles with patients, people who are carpooling etc. depending upon its own desire.

Step 5: this step is long overdue and needs to be implemented strictly rightaway. DISCIPLINE AUTO and TAXI DRIVERS. There should be severe action against turning down fare, overcharging etc. This is where again the core vote bank of AAP will be affected and therefore political will is required. Apart from this, reclaim the footpaths from hawkers and other encroachments and make them uniform and disabled friendly.
Step 6: Strictly enforce "no parking" rules along the roads, lane driving, penalise wrong side driving

I am quite hopeful that such a solution can work. I definitely want the pollution to come down but with minimal disruption to life.

Last edited by GTO : 17th December 2015 at 17:16. Reason: Typos
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Old 18th December 2015, 11:09   #14
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Default Re: Unpollute and decongest Delhi

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Originally Posted by interest View Post
I believ-----------SNIP------------- to life.

Agree with everything, except for the fare hikes of 50-100% on metro.
See, people migrating from cars will still make a saving shifting even with such a hike, but the gist is that the metro is a boon for people who are not privileged as much either. There is no point in putting the fare out of reach of such commuters. You take a look at any metro station, and you see every strata travelling in it, precisely because of the balance between convenience and cost. For some, the convenience is not enough to give up their cars.
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Old 18th December 2015, 12:45   #15
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See, ------------------------- their cars.
I know the solution that I am proposing is not the most ideal if you look at it from 'socialistic principles' point of view but somewhere one has to realise that only a basic level facility should come at a cheap price. For a more comfortable (air conditioned) travel you have to be ready to pay a price. For commuters who cannot afford the metro after the fare hike, there would be buses (and more buses would be added before the proposed metro fare hike to avoid overcrowding). A point to be kept in mind is that once the metro becomes less crowded, more car users would find it attractive. This would free up the roads and would allow buses to move on the roads more efficiently. We would be able to implement solutions like BRT as well in such a scenario with success. I know not all car users would shift to the metro and to be fair, we cannot force every car user to move to the metro either in a democracy. What we can certainly do is to let them use their car as long as they are ready to pay a price for it. The suggestion about the online permit deals with this issue. The funds collected from these permits can be used to further bolster the bus network to make it more comfortable for the commuters displaced from the metro because of the fare hike.

In our country, because of this socialistic view of things, we end up punishing the few people who pay taxes honestly and are using personal resources to plug gaps where the government should be delivering (for instance- no one would want to buy a generator if government can assure 24x7 power, not many would like to buy two or three cars if the public transport was functional and comfortable and the autorickshaws and black yellow taxis were not a law unto themselves).
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