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Old 22nd June 2017, 21:03   #241
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Originally Posted by blackasta View Post
as I also believe that DUI is a law and order issue which should be dealt by police on roads, not PIL in courts...
To everyone who says that, my question is this: how do you think the police should deal with DUI on Bangalore's ORR between 6-8 PM? Or since your location is Kolkata, on AJC Bose Road - say?

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How many DUI cases by % are people who have front loaded and then found driving vs people drinking from a bottle while on the wheel? Is there any stats available?
Ha. We don't even have accurate overall DUI stats. A survey in Delhi found 70% of all accidents have a DUI root cause. This is not captured in any government report.

http://www.thehindu.com/news/cities/...le14425883.ece

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Originally Posted by Stratosphere View Post
DUI checking is the administration's responsibility. When we open a bar or a restaurant, we cannot check every patron who goes out our doors. Sorry to say but this is a case of punishing someone who has no idea what is going on.
For nearly 5 years, I spent a substantial amount of my time in the UK. I have visited several dozen pubs, and in all of them I have observed this protocol:

- If you drive in, you have to deposit your car key with the barman/barmaid to get served.
- In a group, only the designated driver(s) can claim the key back.
- If you are alone or if in a group everyone is drinking, the key is not returned. You book a minicab (this is from pre-Uber era).
- The minicab operators have free phones installed in the pubs.
- You create a scene, the barman calls the cops. They respond quickly.

See how the pub owners became part of the solution instead of being part of the problem? Of course it does not prevent people from pub hopping etc. but it is a start. And that sort of collective responsibility results in stats like this:

https://www.drinkdriving.org/drink_d...tistics_uk.php

PS: I am not saying this is the norm in all of UK. I have seen this protocol in action in the pubs that I have visited, that's all.

Last edited by Gannu_1 : 22nd June 2017 at 21:21. Reason: Back to back posts merged.
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Old 22nd June 2017, 22:55   #242
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Default Re: Come April 2017, no more Liquor shops on the highway!

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I think (and guess I am reiterating) that the ban, if there should be one (as I also believe that DUI is a law and order issue which should be dealt by police on roads, not PIL in courts), should have only been on alcohol pouring and consumption within 500 m. Not on selling of sealed bottles.
Hotels with rooms could have been given a rider that they can only pour drinks for someone who has booked atleast for one night.
The solution you suggest is not possible. Once you sell the bottle you have no control over the buyer and his will to open it. He can open it anywhere and the bar or restaurant has no say over it.

This order requires a more thorough and thought out law which brings about actual changes in the lifestyle of the people, while not suppressing their free will.
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Old 23rd June 2017, 08:17   #243
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Default Re: Come April 2017, no more Liquor shops on the highway!

Just read news in TOI mentioning that areas of bangalore located in cbd like MG Road, Brigade Road, Church Street and even Indiranagar are either part of NH/close to NH. Wait, what!!

In the records maintained by govt the area from basaveshwara circle until trinity circle and old madras road is mentioned as NH. Similarly townhall, jc road and then the road via wilson farden, christ college which is called hosur road is also an NH. This is absurdity. While it may have been an NH a long time back, dont the people update their records at all.
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Old 23rd June 2017, 09:07   #244
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Default Re: Come April 2017, no more Liquor shops on the highway!

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While it may have been an NH a long time back, dont the people update their records at all.
As Kerala HC recently pointed out, an NH does not cease to be an NH just because state government, state PWD or NHAI say so (or simply by passage of time). To remove a road from its NH status, a notification from the MoRTH is required and for that, the state government has to make an application. That is, new roads constructed by NHAI are national highways, but that does not automatically remove the roads replaced by them from their NH status.

Second thing to remember is that if a road is an NH, the cost of its maintenance and upgrade is borne by NHAI. So if a road is removed from NH status then the cost of maintaining it falls on the state government (and thereby reduces the amount of money available for jaunts to Brazil and Thailand). Similarly once a road loses its SH status the onus of maintaining it falls on the local municipality or panchayat.
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Old 23rd June 2017, 09:55   #245
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Default Re: Come April 2017, no more Liquor shops on the highway!

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Originally Posted by binand View Post
As Kerala HC recently pointed out, an NH does not cease to be an NH just because state government, state PWD or NHAI say so (or simply by passage of time). To remove a road from its NH status, a notification from the MoRTH is required and for that, the state government has to make an application. That is, new roads constructed by NHAI are national highways, but that does not automatically remove the roads replaced by them from their NH status.

Second thing to remember is that if a road is an NH, the cost of its maintenance and upgrade is borne by NHAI. So if a road is removed from NH status then the cost of maintaining it falls on the state government (and thereby reduces the amount of money available for jaunts to Brazil and Thailand). Similarly once a road loses its SH status the onus of maintaining it falls on the local municipality or panchayat.
I agree to all that. And I also do know that if a road in NH then its upkeep is done by NHAI. But all the roads that are mentioned in my reply are maintained by BBMP and not by NHAI. That is what I was perplexed about.

Quoting from the article in TOI :

Quote:
BBMP mayor G Padmavathi said, "These roads in the heart of the city are highways only in the record books. All maintenance work and development is carried out by the BBMP. The state government is in talks with NHAI to convince them to hand over the roads, but there is no official communication in this regard."
So should not the government fixed this long time back(though they are trying to do now) as it was costing the exchequer lot of money.
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Old 23rd June 2017, 10:08   #246
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Default Re: Come April 2017, no more Liquor shops on the highway!

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Originally Posted by TorqueyTechie View Post
Just read news in TOI mentioning that areas of bangalore located in cbd like MG Road, Brigade Road, Church Street and even Indiranagar are either part of NH/close to NH. Wait, what!!
When the narrow road I posted in this post is a national highway, why MG Road?

In fact, the road I showed in that video was a SH until 2014. However, the outgoing union minister for transport & highways at that time, notified the the SH into a NH to hit back at all the local businesses who supported his opposition party. Most of those businesses who lose their buildings if the road is widened to make it a NH. That was the idea. But most commercial businesses on it was within the Udupi city limits, which means the city corporation has to do it. So nothing happened. However, it remains NH on paper, can't be undone without center.

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Originally Posted by binand View Post
Second thing to remember is that if a road is an NH, the cost of its maintenance and upgrade is borne by NHAI.
Nope, not if it is inside city corporation limits. Is NHAI maintaining MG Road or Old Madras Road? BBPM does. That is why KA government has appealed to center to de-notify the NH within city limits.

Last edited by Samurai : 23rd June 2017 at 10:10.
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Old 23rd June 2017, 10:10   #247
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Default Re: Come April 2017, no more Liquor shops on the highway!

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Originally Posted by binand View Post
To everyone who says that, my question is this: how do you think the police should deal with DUI on Bangalore's ORR between 6-8 PM? Or since your location is Kolkata, on AJC Bose Road - say?
.
Police should invest more time, effort and money on curbing DUI as it is done in other civilized countries. How they do it is not for me to formulate.

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Originally Posted by Stratosphere View Post
The solution you suggest is not possible. Once you sell the bottle you have no control over the buyer and his will to open it. He can open it anywhere and the bar or restaurant has no say over it.

This order requires a more thorough and thought out law which brings about actual changes in the lifestyle of the people, while not suppressing their free will.
The solution which I suggested makes a man commit 2 crimes - and the fear of which is a better deterrent.
You see, drinking in a bar/hotel/pub is not a crime, but driving drunk afterwards is.
But while buying a sealed bottle from an off shop is not a crime, breaking the seal and consuming it on the road is a crime, plus driving drunk/while drinking is already a crime.
So if there are only off shops on the highways, people will think twice before committing 2 crimes.
The fear of getting caught while committing 2 crimes is greater than getting caught while committing one, hence a better deterrent.

Again - about everyone I know (and that includes people from various strata of the society) who buys liquor from an off shop consume it elsewhere.
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Old 23rd June 2017, 10:15   #248
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Default Re: Come April 2017, no more Liquor shops on the highway!

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Nope, not if it is inside city corporation limits. Is NHAI maintaining MG Road or Old Madras Road? BBPM does. That is why KA government has appealed to center to de-notify the NH within city limits.
What I understood from the discussion in Kerala is that though the local PWD does the actual maintenance, NHAI bears the cost. That is, the PWD is reimbursed by NHAI and the PWD contractors have to abide by NHAI's rules for them.
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Old 23rd June 2017, 10:21   #249
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Default Re: Come April 2017, no more Liquor shops on the highway!

And the Enterprising Indian outshines the law, again .. Mobile Liquor shops. Just take a Tata Chhota Haathi, plonk in a few refrigerators to chill beers, and off you go.

http://www.hindustantimes.com/india-...wAIucXNxJ.html
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Old 23rd June 2017, 11:00   #250
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Default Re: Come April 2017, no more Liquor shops on the highway!

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What I understood from the discussion in Kerala is that though the local PWD does the actual maintenance, NHAI bears the cost. That is, the PWD is reimbursed by NHAI and the PWD contractors have to abide by NHAI's rules for them.
I just called my uncle who is retired PWD engineer, his last stint was in Mangalore City corporation. He categorically told me that the NH/SH maintenance inside city limits is paid by the city, NHAI does not reimburse them.
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Old 23rd June 2017, 11:32   #251
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I just called my uncle who is retired PWD engineer, his last stint was in Mangalore City corporation. He categorically told me that the NH/SH maintenance inside city limits is paid by the city, NHAI does not reimburse them.
I looked in this annual report by Karnataka PWD:

http://103.241.144.46:81/pdf/annual_...011_12_eng.pdf

(2011-12, couldn't find an English version after that).

Please refer to page 23 of this file. It starts with this statement:

"The Development and Maintenance of National Highways in the state comes under the jurisdiction of P.W.P. & I.W.T.D. and the entire expenditure is borne by the Government of India."

The rest of the chapter deals with how much the outlay on the NH network has been and how much was covered by the Union government. It is pretty much 100%.
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Old 23rd June 2017, 11:43   #252
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Default Re: Come April 2017, no more Liquor shops on the highway!

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Please refer to page 23 of this file. It starts with this statement:

"The Development and Maintenance of National Highways in the state comes under the jurisdiction of P.W.P. & I.W.T.D. and the entire expenditure is borne by the Government of India."
Where does it say it also covers city jurisdiction?
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Old 23rd June 2017, 11:50   #253
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Where does it say it also covers city jurisdiction?
Cities don't count when it says "National Highways in the state"? Then maybe. Perhaps all that money was spent only on the 5% or so of NH that are outside of any corporation/municipality etc. of KA.
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Old 23rd June 2017, 11:56   #254
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Default Re: Come April 2017, no more Liquor shops on the highway!

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Perhaps all that money was spent only on the 5% or so of NH that are outside of any corporation/municipality etc. of KA.
Are you sure about that? According to me, it should be the other way round i.e. only 5-10% of the highways actually fall within municipalities. 90% of the kms would be open roads with no major cities around.

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Yeah, but I'd expect even that land to fall under the jurisdiction of some local governance body or other. The exception I was thinking of was forests etc.
If I understand correctly, there are cities and then there are towns and villages. The towns, villages and cities are then merged into districts for easy governance. So one needs to leave out these towns and villages when considering city jurisdiction.

EDIT: Here's what defines City, Town and Village
Quote:
villages means < 1000 houses / 10000 populations

town means > 10000 houses / 100000 populations

city means > l lak houses / 10lak populations

Last edited by vinit.merchant : 23rd June 2017 at 12:19.
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Old 23rd June 2017, 12:08   #255
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90% of the kms would be open roads with no major cities around.
Yeah, but I'd expect even that land to fall under the jurisdiction of some local governance body or other. The exception I was thinking of was forests etc.
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