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Old 20th December 2016, 10:22   #46
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Default Re: Come April 2017, no more Liquor shops on the highway!

I think they talk of Liquor Vends which will include all forms of liquor sale.

The question is where does the demarcation start? Eg: Bangalore city is now extended for about 20-25Kms in Kanakpura road. (True with all highways). Does that mean 500mts within Kanakpura road, one cannot have liquor sale? If not, then it defeats the whole purpose as people can tank up in cities itself. Looks like there is some notes in judgement where they distinguish highways coming within muncipal limits vs others. It will be interesting how this whole thing pans out.
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Old 20th December 2016, 10:56   #47
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Default Re: Come April 2017, no more Liquor shops on the highway!

They have removed the exception for city/town limits, look at point 14.

Most hotel/bar/pub/restaurant are within 500 metres of a SH/NH except in large cities or metros. It is high time judge clarify this confusion.
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Old 20th December 2016, 18:40   #48
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Default Re: Come April 2017, no more Liquor shops on the highway!

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Originally Posted by kovilkalai View Post
1. Why is a court establishing rules? Shouldn't it be the elected government that does this? If this is alright, why do we need the state or central government? We could all just appeal to the court and the court could just issue decrees.
First of all, you should recognize that no country can have laws that cover every single conceivable situation. So in cases like this (where a legal lacuna exists) the court will frame laws on its own. Our constitution allows the supreme court to do this, and often the legislature also allows those laws to stay in place (and not replace them with parliamentary legislation). This has been a long-standing practice, and not just in India - but in all countries that follow the common law system.

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2. So... if drunken driving is correlated to liquor shops next to highways, then the following should also be banned.
a. Vehicles... because road accidents happen because of them
b. Exams... because there would be no copying if it weren't for exams
The logic is ridiculous!
Your sarcasm notwithstanding, you could actually try all these. The court obviously wouldn't read your petition and go "you know, that sounds like a good idea", but will follow a due process. In the present case, the petitioners managed to convince the court, with actual numbers, that a huge fraction of the road accidents and deaths have a DUI motif. The judgment quotes some of these numbers.

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The wording of the judgment has created massive confusion. The judgment says liquor shop all along, and never says bar/pub/restaurant/hotel where liquor is served, but not available for sale. Therefore, all the bar/pub/restaurant/hotel owners are scrambling to find out whether they are included in the ban too. But nobody knows (even excise department) what the judge actually meant. Wonder when they will clarify, with only 3 months given for shutdown.
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They have removed the exception for city/town limits, look at point 14.

Most hotel/bar/pub/restaurant are within 500 metres of a SH/NH except in large cities or metros. It is high time judge clarify this confusion.
I read through this judgment and the excise acts of Kerala and Karnataka; this is what I gathered:

Excise laws make a distinction between sale of alcohol and consumption of alcohol and specifies separate regulatory regimes for these. So, you can have a license to only sell alcohol (wine shops), only allow patrons to consume alcohol (one-day licenses for parties etc., some clubs) and allow sale and consumption of alcohol (restaurants and bars). This judgment bans sale of alcohol, so both wine shops and restaurants that serve alcohol are affected. This part is clear, and if anybody is saying otherwise I think they are only trying to blur the issue.

Second, the judgment does not allow any exemption for cities and towns. So all affected alcohol sale points across the country, even if they are within city limits, have to go.

From some NHAI maps I have seen in the past, I think NH 4 & NH 7 inside Bangalore follows the ORR alignment between Silk Board - KR Puram - Hebbal - Yeshwantpur. So all bars and wineshops along this stretch will go (including the ones in 5-star hotels like Marriott, Park Plaza etc.). NH 209 & NH 275 I guess originate somewhere in the middle of the city. The originating points and alignments of the state highways - Bannerghata Road, Magadi Road etc. will have to be notified.
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Old 20th December 2016, 19:13   #49
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Default Re: Come April 2017, no more Liquor shops on the highway!

What I saw in the report is that drunken driving constitutes of about 3-4% of the accidents - what about the rest 96%, of which the main contributor is rash driving? road bumps every 500m on the NH/SH I guess !!

I am speaking from my experience of driving in the only other country that I have driven extensively (USA), and (varying by state) liquor is readily available by the highways, sometimes even in the petrol pumps. USA has multiple times the car & driver population than India, but LAW ENFORCEMENT is strict there. That's the differentiator. I personally have stayed back multiple times at friend's / colleague's place after a Friday/Saturday night party, not risking even a short drive of 15-20 mins.

In India, law enforcement for most part is corrupt, or inept, or both. DUI laws exist in India also, but the police is unable/unwilling to enforce that.Their prime focus is on collecting 'hafta' from passing trucks. To cover that ineptness, this judgement was passed which shall result in the curious case of liquor not being available to the patron of a hotel/motel by the highway who is stopping for the night, but habitual drunk drivers shall obviously front load or get their swill delivered via scrupulous means on pedestals of scooters.

Last edited by blackasta : 20th December 2016 at 19:15.
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Old 21st December 2016, 18:32   #50
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Default Re: Come April 2017, no more Liquor shops on the highway!

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I am speaking from my experience of driving in the only other country that I have driven extensively (USA), and (varying by state) liquor is readily available by the highways, sometimes even in the petrol pumps.
To be quite blunt, "in my experience" carries just about as much weight as "trust me". What matters are the actual numbers - and those numbers say that DUI is quite as big a problem in the US as it is in India, if not bigger. On average, the number of road fatalities associated with DUI in the US is 4 times that in India (ref: http://cmcdefense.com/drunk-driving-fatalities-data.php), and that is about 30% of all traffic deaths in the US (in India, 4%).
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Old 21st December 2016, 19:13   #51
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Default Re: Come April 2017, no more Liquor shops on the highway!

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To be quite blunt, "in my experience" carries just about as much weight as "trust me". What matters are the actual numbers - and those numbers say that DUI is quite as big a problem in the US as it is in India, if not bigger. On average, the number of road fatalities associated with DUI in the US is 4 times that in India (ref: http://cmcdefense.com/drunk-driving-fatalities-data.php), and that is about 30% of all traffic deaths in the US (in India, 4%).
So you want to indicate that what you mentioned above absolves the police of their laissez faire approach towards highway patrolling?
As for DUI deaths - US number is bigger in percentage of total deaths, but 30% lesser in numbers of DUI only (appx 10K USA vs 16k India).
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Old 22nd December 2016, 11:54   #52
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Default Re: Come April 2017, no more Liquor shops on the highway!

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So you want to indicate that what you mentioned above absolves the police of their laissez faire approach towards highway patrolling?
Of course not. You are shifting the goal post. Your position is that the present judgment taken alone will do nothing to reduce DUI accidents in India. I only refuted that - in my opinion the present judgment will go some way (admittedly, not the full distance) in controlling DUI accidents by reducing the availability of alcohol along the highways (in many cases, whole towns will go retail alcohol-free I imagine. KSBC is, in my view, facing bankruptcy because with the current mood in Kerala, it is inconceivable they'll be able to shift their outlets to alternate locations).
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Old 22nd December 2016, 12:16   #53
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Default Re: Come April 2017, no more Liquor shops on the highway!

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Originally Posted by binand View Post
in many cases, whole towns will go retail alcohol-free I imagine.
You are right. I got an estimate yesterday that only 2 out of the few dozen bars/pubs in Manipal can remain open after April 2017.
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Old 22nd December 2016, 12:33   #54
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Default Re: Come April 2017, no more Liquor shops on the highway!

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You are right. I got an estimate yesterday that only 2 out of the few dozen bars/pubs in Manipal can remain open after April 2017.
Manipal is a town that built around the highway. All the way from the time to climb the hill to all the way down. Come to think, old landmarks like Bacchus and the few pubs down the road from MIT (dont recall the names now - was at MIT from 95 - 99) will all have to shut shop.

Also, what about places like Goa - tourists are going to be really frustrated that their favorite watering holes have now closed or moved.
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Old 22nd December 2016, 14:03   #55
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Default Re: Come April 2017, no more Liquor shops on the highway!

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Originally Posted by binand View Post
Of course not. You are shifting the goal post. Your position is that the present judgment taken alone will do nothing to reduce DUI accidents in India. I only refuted that - in my opinion the present judgment will go some way (admittedly, not the full distance) in controlling DUI accidents by reducing the availability of alcohol along the highways (in many cases, whole towns will go retail alcohol-free I imagine. KSBC is, in my view, facing bankruptcy because with the current mood in Kerala, it is inconceivable they'll be able to shift their outlets to alternate locations).
My position is that govt always takes the easy way rather than the right way to tackle problems which cropped up in the first place due to govt negligence.
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Old 22nd December 2016, 16:08   #56
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Default Re: Come April 2017, no more Liquor shops on the highway!

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My position is that govt always takes the easy way rather than the right way to tackle problems which cropped up in the first place due to govt negligence.
Though, in the present instance the way was chosen by the judiciary, not the government.

Then there is the residual question that with uninterrupted booze availability on the roads like they have it in the USA, what level of government attention would be appropriate to eliminate DUI altogether.
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Old 22nd December 2016, 17:31   #57
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Default Re: Come April 2017, no more Liquor shops on the highway!

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what level of government attention would be appropriate to eliminate DUI altogether.
Better policing, and strict implementation of existing laws.
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Old 22nd December 2016, 18:44   #58
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Default Re: Come April 2017, no more Liquor shops on the highway!

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Better policing, and strict implementation of existing laws.
Then we are back to square one, no? You pointed out the USA as the country where they had better policing and strict implementation of existing laws, with completely unregulated access to alcohol all along their highways. And see where that got them.
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Old 22nd December 2016, 18:51   #59
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Default Re: Come April 2017, no more Liquor shops on the highway!

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Then we are back to square one, no? You pointed out the USA as the country where they had better policing and strict implementation of existing laws, with completely unregulated access to alcohol all along their highways. And see where that got them.
Where that got them is 30% lesser DUI deaths by count, with almost double number of vehicles on road.
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Old 24th December 2016, 18:14   #60
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Default Re: Come April 2017, no more Liquor shops on the highway!

My 2 cents..

I've driven extensively on Indian Roads in nearly all the states including the seven sisters and J&K...

I somehow don't agree with stats of 4% of accidents happening due to drunken driving etc.. In a country like India, the post accidental analysis is extremely poor. If any accident takes place on the highway, the only way to ascertain drunkenness is to do a blood sample for alcohol content. And that, my friends, is rarely done because the driver(s) (whether dead or alive) is taken to the nearest ramshackle health centre/clinic, where no facilities exist.

Most cases of rash driving are a derivative of alcohol consumption. The driver flees or buys his way out.

Also, alcohol is a catalyst for criminal activity as well, especially against women. Since the Indian highway is a place where little policing takes place, the chances of getting caught are less.

My view may be radical for many, but I feel that Indians are not mature enough to handle alcohol. In fact, prohibition across the length and breadth of this country would be a boon for us Indians.
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