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Old 26th October 2017, 11:30   #16
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Default Re: All about the 35,000 km 7-lakh crore Bharatmala border road project

More info gleaned from analyst reports and Gadkari interviews:

1) Single largest infra project in India (as claimed by Gadkari)
2) Roads will be built scientifically with goal of reducing highway accidents by up to 50% (as claimed by Gadkari)
3) Cost per km estimated to be Rs. 15 crores
4) Traffic density analysis done by "Satellite mapping and Ground Penetration Radar"
5) Roads will be 2+2 lane highways. But at choke points and high traffic density areas, it will be 3+3 or even 4+4 lane highways
6) Project includes ring roads & bypass roads across major towns and cities

Quote:
Originally Posted by vrprabhu View Post
What about the environmental damage though?
And, some part of the work along the Ratnagiri coast is already underway - in some places, the road actually hugs the sea, and I have seen a bridge built near the sea, where they have practically chopped off a section of the hill. Irreversible damage Vs. Infrastructure development - at what cost?
This topic calls for a new thread altogether.
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Old 26th October 2017, 11:33   #17
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Default Re: All about the 35,000 km 7-lakh crore Bharatmala border road project

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sawyer View Post
I am at a loss to understand why we should be excited about another such announcement - especially when the government has failed ever to build roads at the rate that it has set for itself. Last year - a good year for road-building - it built only 5,200 kms of the 15,000 kms it intended to.
Your numbers are off by some 3,000 kms. 8,200 kms built out of 15,000 kms target. Results may be less than the targets but the targets themselves are very ambitious. Also, the total length built is much better in the last 3 years and growing at a good pace every year.

http://www.hindustantimes.com/india-...gx7lIu7iO.html

Coming to Bharatamala project and recent 7 lakh crore announcement, it includes the corridors and roads that are at different stages over last 3 years. Some are already in construction phase, some are in tender stage. Many of these are pending for years and even decades.

Below map shows one such highway on the east cost in Andhra Pradesh. The one in blue color is part of Golden quadrilateral (Chennai to Kolkata) but the stretch shown in map goes far from the coast. The new road goes along the coast and covers different small towns and ports in the region. This has been taken up only recently even though it was in proposal for decades.
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Old 26th October 2017, 12:26   #18
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Default Re: All about the 35,000 km 7-lakh crore Bharatmala border road project

Recent travels in Western ghat region - around Mangalore/Goa and other areas you can see huge amount of forest cover is being lost to roads. Thousands of trees are gone from some of the most rich tropical forest area. This region is some of the last remaining heavy forest cover in our country. These projects will just accelerate this.

I felt really sad looking at this destruction and I hope we are evaluating the environmental cost we are paying for this. Maybe there is no alternate but I feel no one really cares.

Better roads are definitely required for economic development. But I hope we are also keeping a tally of price we sometimes pay for it.
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Old 26th October 2017, 12:41   #19
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Default Re: All about the 35,000 km 7-lakh crore Bharatmala border road project

Quote:
Originally Posted by vrprabhu View Post
What about the environmental damage though?
It's inevitable. We won't do anything about it.

But we can avoid going off topic as I find similar discussions about the environmental damage in most of the threads. To be honest we really don't give a damn about the environment. If we did we won't be owning a car in the first place and logically neither a TeamBhp membership.

As for this new project, I am really excited (in a similar way in 2008 when I first traveled through the golden quadrilateral) about this project and would love to travel from the coastal areas of Karnataka, Kerala towards TN and finally end in AP. I personally hope with another infractsure expansion project they make the road, between Krishnagiri and Tindivam via Thiruvanamali, 4-lane.
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Old 26th October 2017, 20:07   #20
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Default Re: All about the 35,000 km 7-lakh crore Bharatmala border road project

First of all, apologies for deviating from the main topic in my earlier post.

Quote:
Originally Posted by smartcat View Post
3) Cost per km estimated to be Rs. 15 crores

6) Project includes ring roads & bypass roads across major towns and cities
3) This was what I was obtusely hinting at. There will be a vendor who will cough up the outlay to build the roads, and milk the commuters dry by periodically increasing the toll. And, if God forbid, the revenue doesn't come in, some Banks will be left in the lurch. Secondly, building a good road infrastructure is one thing. Maintaining is totally another story. Classic example is the Pune Mumbai Expressway - anyone who has driven on it a decade ago and now, will understand what I am talking about. So, what measures will be taken to ensure that the quality of roads is maintained?

6) Once again, example from Pune. Hinjewadi flyover at Wakad. Some genius decided to built a flyover, on the arterial road, over the NH. The whole NH in that section is being redone within a span of three - five years. Waste of public money, time and labour.

Contrasting example, once again in Pune. The grade separator from Nasik Phata to Dehu. A good example of some farsightedness and good planning. Remains trouble free even after five years.



Quote:
Originally Posted by jaganpec2002 View Post
.... love to travel from the coastal areas of Karnataka, Kerala towards TN and finally end in AP.
Seeing the progress we are making, definitely your wishes will come true in the near future.

But, talking of infrastructure and progress, the aim should be to facilitate the movement of goods (thereby reduce the logistics cost) which, as some one else pointed, will ensure that the benefit of development reaches to one and all.

In fact, every infrastructure and development complementing each other will be best solution. Anyone who has seen the RORO on Konkan Railway (which is another good example of development of rail link in hinterland) will agree that this is an innovative way to facilitate the movement of trucks at a minimum cost.

The beneficial by product is that we are able to drive our cars on good roads.


A small detour :
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sawyer View Post
The Bhor Varandha stretch near Pune is a classic example. Terrible roads, no one goes there unless they live there. But for visiting travellers, nature in all its glory remains for enjoying it in peace. Even the narrow twisting roads look appropriate in that setting. Long may it remain undeveloped.
That's almost an annual pilgrimage for me. Ever did the Mandar Devi Temple road from Bhor and got down from the back to Wai? Try it - especially on a two wheeler, now! Post monsoon, this is really one vast canvas of green on Western Ghats.....
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Old 26th October 2017, 21:47   #21
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Default Re: All about the 35,000 km 7-lakh crore Bharatmala border road project

I have travelled on Mum Pune Expressway, a project hallmark of Shri Nitin Gadkari.
What differentiates Mum Pune Expressway are the ramps for exit and entry & fencing along the border.
I rode my way from Hyderabad to Blr, but did not notice any ramp nor did I notice them around Ahemdabad on GQ.

Hope the Sagar mala project roads will have mandatory ramps and fencing like Mum Pune Expressway.
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Old 27th October 2017, 00:46   #22
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Default Re: All about the 35,000 km 7-lakh crore Bharatmala border road project

I cannot restraint myself from being pessimist here. After staying in Kerala for more than two decades, I doubt the feasibility of this project in Kerala (Forget about completion in 5 years).
Acquiring land for this would be next to impossible.
High population density and state political conditions are to be blamed for this.

NH-17 strech from Edapilly to Guruvayoor is due for 4 lane conversion from last 20 years and I see nothing fruitful happening in near future. The magnitude of proposed project is way more than the said NH widening.
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Old 27th October 2017, 06:41   #23
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Default Re: All about the 35,000 km 7-lakh crore Bharatmala border road project

I would go as far to say that these highways are overambitious and extravagant.

We need to fix:
1. Infrastructure in cities- bottlenecks, potholes etc
2. Improve public transport- we can't just keep expanding cities without good public transport
3. Educate people on driving discipline and etiquette

At the present moment, India doesn't have as many cars and doesn't need more highways. Indian trucks aren't powerful enough to maintain 80-90 km\h to do 500-700 km a day. Their average speed is terrible.
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Old 27th October 2017, 09:20   #24
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Default Re: All about the 35,000 km 7-lakh crore Bharatmala border road project

Quote:
Originally Posted by landcruiser123 View Post
I would go as far to say that these highways are overambitious and extravagant.

At the present moment, India doesn't have as many cars and doesn't need more highways. Indian trucks aren't powerful enough to maintain 80-90 km\h to do 500-700 km a day. Their average speed is terrible.
True, there is no point in covering say 300 odd kilometers between Chennai and Bangalore in 3 hours and then taking more than 3 hours to drive through a city like Bangalore. These highways are useless unless there is a good secondary transportation system to back up. The average usability of any highway is less than 10 years at the current growth of vehicles, so why waste money on roads which will be useless after 10 years. This is just another way to get funds for 2019 elections.

Last edited by deehunk : 27th October 2017 at 09:22.
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Old 27th October 2017, 09:27   #25
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Default Re: All about the 35,000 km 7-lakh crore Bharatmala border road project

Quote:
Originally Posted by landcruiser123 View Post
I would go as far to say that these highways are overambitious and extravagant.
I agree. I also agree that we need to do both things as many like to say here because it is easy to say this, but the problem - the elephant in the room to be honest - is that we don't see that happening anywhere, while we see many new projects being launched in an indecent hurry including the ill thought out concretisation of city roads. And increasing lawlessness rampant on these "gifted" roads, that is out of any control. With no sustained effort to check it. So not having the visible bandwidth/will to do the first thing, we are happily applauding all the second things - new projects - being launched left, right, and centre.

Anyone that tries to run before they can walk properly is going to fall on their face and suffer a bloody nose at a minimum. We are seeing this happen in India and we will see it happen over and over because we do not have a pool of enlightened leadership to choose from, to be in charge of affairs in a responsible way that does not have hidden agendas.

People may like to close their eyes to this, but we are in a downward spiral at this time.
PS: @vrprabhu - yes, I know those roads very well. Standing on the top of the saddle after climbing up from the Bhor side, one sees the vistas of hills/forts ahead, the narrow road snaking down in the direction of Wai, with the occasional small to the eye ST bus on it. And then the drive or ride to Wai. Another place that I hope does not get the eye of greedy politicians for development.

Last edited by Sawyer : 27th October 2017 at 09:32.
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Old 27th October 2017, 10:03   #26
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Default Re: All about the 35,000 km 7-lakh crore Bharatmala border road project

Can't they also plan a rail route alongside the new Bharatmala road network? This would improve the goods-transport-connectivity amoung the major ports, and also ease the conjestion on the roads.
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Old 27th October 2017, 11:39   #27
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Default Re: All about the 35,000 km 7-lakh crore Bharatmala border road project

Quote:
Originally Posted by landcruiser123 View Post
I would go as far to say that these highways are overambitious and extravagant.
We need to fix:
1. Infrastructure in cities- bottlenecks, potholes etc
2. Improve public transport- we can't just keep expanding cities without good public transport
Indian trucks aren't powerful enough to maintain 80-90 km\h to do 500-700 km a day. Their average speed is terrible.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sawyer View Post
People may like to close their eyes to this, but we are in a downward spiral at this time.
Very well said.
We dont need more highways, the existing highways should be made better and kept in such good state. The average speed will increase in all probability and further to that, if necessary, other highway projects would make sense. It must not happen that over a period of time new highways also end up in not-so good-state as is the case with many of existing ones. I doubt if Golden Quadrilateral is successfully completed.

Urban roads and public transport needs more focus and improvements. Can we have these things as priority than new highways ? Expanding and maintaining current highways would be beneficial with less resources consumed including land and no new route planning. Somehow, I feel that 9000+ kms. long railway freight corridor would help freight movement shifting to railways helping ease some truck traffic on the concerned roads.

Agree with Sawyer, we need to set priorities right with corrective actions if needed rather than a new jewel studded project.

Last edited by aaggoswami : 27th October 2017 at 11:42.
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Old 27th October 2017, 12:15   #28
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Default Re: All about the 35,000 km 7-lakh crore Bharatmala border road project

Quote:
Originally Posted by deehunk View Post
The average usability of any highway is less than 10 years at the current growth of vehicles, so why waste money on roads which will be useless after 10 years. This is just another way to get funds for 2019 elections.
This government spending has nothing to do with improving infrastructure (though it is an unintended outcome) or getting funds for elections. This is part of the fiscal policy of any government to improve the economy. When the consumer spending goes down and when businesses do not produce goods and services, governments will increase government's own spending. This will pump money directly to the common man and he or she will start spending on goods and services. This will increase demand for goods and services and thus businesses will start producing more. When business starts producing more, they will employ more people and pass wages to them. With wages, common man will spend more and the cycle continues. Thus a new economic growth cycle sets in.

The policy is known as Keynesian economics proposed by John Maynard Keynes. USA employs this model heavily. Most of the US interstate highways are built during the great depression period. The same principle was applied during the 2008 recession under the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act of 2009. Governments choose road and bridges as the spending vehicle because it is fast to implement and covers most of the middle low income group and pump money directly to them. The Golden Quadrilateral too was created under a fiscal stimulus.

Fiscal policies are good in the short term if implemented correct and the consumers spend the money (such as wages) they receive (instead of saving it). But in the long run, it will create higher inflation and increased taxes. There are many economists who object this idea.
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Old 27th October 2017, 12:28   #29
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Default Re: All about the 35,000 km 7-lakh crore Bharatmala border road project

Quote:
Originally Posted by aaggoswami View Post
We dont need more highways, the existing highways should be made better and kept in such good state. The average speed will increase in all probability and further to that, if necessary, other highway projects would make sense. It must not happen that over a period of time new highways also end up in not-so good-state as is the case with many of existing ones.
Hmm? But that is what Bharatmala project is about right? Upgradation of existing roads to 2+2 lane highways. These are not "new highways".
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Old 27th October 2017, 12:47   #30
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Default Re: All about the 35,000 km 7-lakh crore Bharatmala border road project

Quote:
Originally Posted by vrprabhu View Post


3) This was what I was obtusely hinting at. There will be a vendor who will cough up the outlay to build the roads, and milk the commuters dry by periodically increasing the toll. And, if God forbid, the revenue doesn't come in, some Banks will be left in the lurch.

...
All the highway building projects being awarded currently are either EPC or Hybrid models where either the Govt pays for the project entirely or shares the cost with the contractor. What you are referring to is the BOT or Build operate transfer model where the contractor had to fund the project cost entirely, and given the cost intensive nature of such projects, borrow heavily, which coupled with the administrative lethargy is past years, heave led to the NPA morass the banks find themselves currently in.

A good read on all the three models http://www.thehindubusinessline.com/...cle9773587.ece
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