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Old 27th October 2017, 12:53   #31
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Default Re: All about the 35,000 km 7-lakh crore Bharatmala border road project

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Originally Posted by vrprabhu View Post
Once again, example from Pune. Hinjewadi flyover at Wakad. Some genius decided to built a flyover, on the arterial road, over the NH. The whole NH in that section is being redone within a span of three - five years. Waste of public money, time and labour.
Existing roads go into the cities. Where bypass routes were built (like the katraj Dehu road bypass), the city expanded itself to and beyond the bypasss routes. For really efficient traffic movement, either the highways should be built away from the cities or implement a plan where the entire city traffic can be bypassed. Such that someone travelling from Kolhapur to Mumbai doesnt have to worry about the traffic mess that exists between Katraj and Wakad.

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Originally Posted by smartcat View Post
Hmm? But that is what Bharatmala project is about right? Upgradation of existing roads to 2+2 lane highways. These are not "new highways".
If this is upgrading the existing routes, then the existing problems are also carried forward. Such as reduced lane width or carriage width (and added local traffic) wherever the roads enter the urban sprawls.
The only thing that gets upgraded is the rates of land along these highways. Within a few months, the travel time will return to the same; if it doesnt increase

Well, that there is the pessimistic view; if anyone at all wanted to find one

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Originally Posted by blorebuddy View Post
Why none of the government thinking big on Railways? There is lot to be done from complete electrification to doubling the lines to improving travel and station experiences. For our country of size and population roads will never be able to solve the traffic and pollution issues without much more modern train network
I was about to add that point about railways. It would make more sense economically (and environmentally) to invest in a robust and efficient rail network. However, with most of our generation (and a couple before us) getting used to private transport, no one wants to go for the inconvenience of travelling at someone else's whim and schedule. In any case, we find the urban planning (or lack of it) so poor, that it would be a miracle if anyone can provide door to door or point to point public transport.
With the railways, you have to wait for the train. With roads, you are free to use it at your time and convenience. Especially because the quality and efficiency of the existing transport system is so low.

Last edited by selfdrive : 27th October 2017 at 13:09.
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Old 27th October 2017, 13:01   #32
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Default Re: All about the 35,000 km 7-lakh crore Bharatmala border road project

Why none of the government thinking big on Railways? There is lot to be done from complete electrification to doubling the lines to improving travel and station experiences. For our country of size and population roads will never be able to solve the traffic and pollution issues without much more modern train network
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Old 27th October 2017, 13:37   #33
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Default Re: All about the 35,000 km 7-lakh crore Bharatmala border road project

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Originally Posted by sreerknair View Post
This government spending has nothing to do with improving infrastructure (though it is an unintended outcome) or getting funds for elections.

Fiscal policies are good in the short term if implemented correct and the consumers spend the money (such as wages) they receive (instead of saving it). But in the long run, it will create higher inflation and increased taxes. There are many economists who object this idea.
What is the use of having a "Mala" around south western and south eastern part of India. They can develop the ports along this region and promote water transport and just link two towns in Kerala and Tamil Nadu on the extreme west and eastern points.
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Old 27th October 2017, 14:34   #34
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Default Re: All about the 35,000 km 7-lakh crore Bharatmala border road project

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Originally Posted by deehunk View Post
What is the use of having a "Mala" around south western and south eastern part of India. They can develop the ports along this region and promote water transport and just link two towns in Kerala and Tamil Nadu on the extreme west and eastern points.
It will help in quickly moving supplies to the Navy in case of war in the seas, chances of which have risen in the recent past due to increasing presence of China in the Indian ocean.
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Old 27th October 2017, 16:07   #35
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Default Re: All about the 35,000 km 7-lakh crore Bharatmala border road project

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Originally Posted by hothatchaway View Post
.... given the cost intensive nature of such projects, borrow heavily, which coupled with the administrative lethargy is past years, heave led to the NPA morass the banks find themselves currently in.
The HAM model came after BOT model failed. Whatever be the model, toll is a certainty - and all collections are likely to be in private hands. Whatever be the model, it is the user who has to pay for it.

As huge investments necessary and the funding has to come from Banks (as there are no real development financial institutions to speak of), would it not be prudent to be sure that the project is strictly financially viable, before investing such large amounts?

And, ultimately, whether you use the road or not and pay the toll or not, it is the tax payer's money which has gone down the drain in form or other.

Seven lakh crore of investment is a huge amount - even a measly return of 5% p.a. translates into a whopping 35,000 crore of income each year!!

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Originally Posted by selfdrive View Post
If this is upgrading the existing routes, then the existing problems are also carried forward. Such as reduced lane width or carriage width (and added local traffic) wherever the roads enter the urban sprawls.

However, with most of our generation (and a couple before us) getting used to private transport, no one wants to go for the inconvenience of travelling at someone else's whim and schedule.
+1 to both your points.

The inevitable is going to be postponed by undertaking these 'developments' - how long do we cheat ourselves thinking that this will solve the problems?

Delhi Metro, when launched, was really a pleasure. Today it is just above a airconditioned Mumbai local! Bangalore & Chennai Metro have just started - when all the lines becomes operational, they too are going to meet the same fate.

In fact, in the initial stages when airfares dropped due to 'low cost carriers' introducing several flights and new routes, flying became a good option. The way Mumbai, Chennai and Bangalore airports are getting crowded in peak hours (T3 at Delhi is better off) shows that the range of planning is limited.

I may be skirting controversy here - in the long term it is the increasing population which will determine the effectiveness, rather than these projects. Sorry if I am going off topic again.

Last edited by vrprabhu : 27th October 2017 at 16:10.
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Old 27th October 2017, 16:22   #36
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Default Re: All about the 35,000 km 7-lakh crore Bharatmala border road project

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Originally Posted by neeravnaik View Post
Recent travels in Western ghat region - around Mangalore/Goa and other areas you can see huge amount of forest cover is being lost to roads. Thousands of trees are gone from some of the most rich tropical forest area. This region is some of the last remaining heavy forest cover in our country. These projects will just accelerate this.
Thank You for raising this concern, although many may find this 'off-topic'. This project (based on the tentative proposals so far) will certainly have huge environmental impact, and will destroy many ecological systems along our coastline, and in the mountains.
What happens if we don't do this? Instead, what if we let the existing arteries gradually choke - hopefully leading to better and faster mass transit systems - reduce dependence on cars etc. etc.
Will that change even start in our own lifetimes? :(
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Old 27th October 2017, 16:33   #37
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Default Re: All about the 35,000 km 7-lakh crore Bharatmala border road project

Most thinking Indians understand that business as usual, just done faster and faster, isn't the answer. Different thinkers have different alternatives that are all worth attention. What no one has a solution to is how we will get a sustained spell of enlightened leadership with a vision that does not fight fires alone, but builds for a sustainable future using a lot of lateral thinking. How we will get such a leadership, and how it will do long term things knowing that it probably will not be re elected in 5 years because of anti incumbency factors - no one can tell the answer to this fundamental question that we face.
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Old 27th October 2017, 16:35   #38
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Default Re: All about the 35,000 km 7-lakh crore Bharatmala border road project

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Originally Posted by roy_libran View Post
Thank You for raising this concern, although many may find this 'off-topic'. This project (based on the tentative proposals so far) will certainly have huge environmental impact, and will destroy many ecological systems along our coastline, and in the mountains.
What happens if we don't do this? Instead, what if we let the existing arteries gradually choke - hopefully leading to better and faster mass transit systems - reduce dependence on cars etc. etc.
Will that change even start in our own lifetimes? :(
Yes this is something we have to constantly think about in our lives. Everything has a cost and environmental cost is sometimes not taken in consideration at all.

I feel there are certain parts of our country that are ecologically important should be really protected. These projects can be accelerated in areas where this kind of cost is lower. We need to add cost of destroying some forests to all projects and sometimes it will not be worth it. If it is a call between land cost ( to pay farmers to acquire agricultural land) vs. ecological cost (in terms of added greenhouse gases due to lost forest cover) I would prefer the former.

Europe has increased its forest cover over time while its farms are shrinking. We have to find efficient ways to produce food.

Obviously you and me are not experts and we do not have all the information. These are complex questions but you cannot ignore away these issues. Studies have also found that better road coverage and transportation access are the fastest ways to reduce poverty and provide opportunities to backward regions.

This is going to be an issue with this project and it will likely take political hue (Development vs. Environment, Government vs. Anti-Government)
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Old 27th October 2017, 16:46   #39
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Default Re: All about the 35,000 km 7-lakh crore Bharatmala border road project

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Originally Posted by vrprabhu View Post
Seven lakh crore of investment is a huge amount - even a measly return of 5% p.a. translates into a whopping 35,000 crore of income each year!! [/b]

The way Mumbai, Chennai and Bangalore airports are getting crowded in peak hours (T3 at Delhi is better off) shows that the range of planning is limited.

I may be skirting controversy here - in the long term it is the increasing population which will determine the effectiveness, rather than these projects. Sorry if I am going off topic again.
I am also worried about the waste of public money and destruction of the environment, forget about its use in a war which are only fake justifications. We have 2 interesting threads on teambhp, one about the proposed cap on vehicles in Singapore and then this one here. I have posted my comments on both the threads, it is not in our reach to have both efficient public transport system like SGP and express highways like USA for weekend driving.

Last edited by deehunk : 27th October 2017 at 16:50.
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Old 27th October 2017, 22:42   #40
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Default Re: All about the 35,000 km 7-lakh crore Bharatmala border road project

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Originally Posted by blorebuddy View Post
Why none of the government thinking big on Railways? There is lot to be done from complete electrification to doubling the lines to improving travel and station experiences. For our country of size and population roads will never be able to solve the traffic and pollution issues without much more modern train network
Railways is focusing on complete electrification of their lines and double and tripling of their tracks was focused on by the previous minister. That was a primary reason the first budget didnt announce new trains and instead focused on improving the network.

Our major problem is lack of work on the ground level. City infrastructure is a gambit of the local mayors, and these chaps are focused on enriching the lives of their kith and kin. Recently a chat with some friends mentioned that a corporator makes enough money for couple of generations of his family. That really needs to stop and i guess its high time for some educated non political person like a Nilekani to run the local body efficiently. I got this idea from Singapore.

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Old 28th October 2017, 07:08   #41
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Default Re: All about the 35,000 km 7-lakh crore Bharatmala border road project

A balance article on this subject here:
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-41758207
A concluding quote from it here:
"Building roads to drive economic growth is an old idea. In fact, it was put in action even before Keynes wrote about it - in Hitler-era Germany, in Italy and in Japan.
How well will things work out in the Indian context? That will depend on how well the government is able to execute the building of roads.
The good news is that Nitin Gadkari, one of the better performing ministers in Mr Modi's government, is in charge.
The bad news is that good execution is not something India is known for."

Note that the Gadkari constructed Mumbai Pune e way is a mere 100 kms long in the context of these mega projects. It has brought immense benefits to travellers but has also become a prime people killer both because of poor road design and because of poorly enforced laws on lane use and over speeding. With usability reduced in every monsoon. And with poor quality rest rooms and lay byes. Constructing good roads is more than just pouring concrete over acquired strips of land. I have yet to see the lessons learnt - if any - from the e way effectively and fully deployed in subsequent roads built since 2000, when that project was completed.

In contrast, the German autobahns, built before WW2 are still in use in most places. And are a part of an integrated well designed road/rail network that has stood the test of decades to the extent that domestic travel by air in western EU makes sense only for very long distances.

Calling it a mala is easy. Making one that justifies that label is a leap over uncharted territory that we have not demonstrated we are familiar with, let alone mastered. In our case these networks have to also coexist on the ground with citizens in rural India whose needs often come into justifiable conflict with these networks.

As to the Nilekani comment: he has made his pile for many generations of Nilekanis and can afford to do his public spirited service now. How are we going to get that kind of service to run the hundreds of local bodies that are active today?

Last edited by Sawyer : 28th October 2017 at 07:15.
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Old 28th October 2017, 08:43   #42
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Default Re: All about the 35,000 km 7-lakh crore Bharatmala border road project

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Originally Posted by Sawyer View Post
How well will things work out in the Indian context? That will depend on how well the government is able to execute the building of roads.

In contrast, the German autobahns, built before WW2 are still in use in most places. And are a part of an integrated well designed road/rail network that has stood the test of decades to the extent that domestic travel by air in western EU makes sense only for very long distances.

As to the Nilekani comment: he has made his pile for many generations of Nilekanis and can afford to do his public spirited service now.
I agree with your views and we need more justification for this Bharatmala project. The estimated cost is 7lakh crores, we need more information about the expected inflation over this amount, checks in place to avoid numbers getting inflated at later stage and utilization factor to recover the cost. On Nilekani thing, there are no saints in this world so let's not create another Mr. Clean on social media.
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Old 30th October 2017, 19:35   #43
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Angry Re: All about the 35,000 km 7-lakh crore Bharatmala border road project

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Originally Posted by vrprabhu View Post

What about the environmental damage though?

Smartcat would surely have witnessed the change of scenario on the Mangalore - Karwar route, post four laning (there was a cave in during this monsoon in one of the sections).


Irreversible damage Vs. Infrastructure development - at what cost?
The existing 2+2 highway toll road between Mangalore and Surathkal is in absolutely pathetic condition. The two way toll charge for using this non existent 18 km road is 70 rupees. Some people have written to Gadkari but no sign of any repair work. Looks like we have to wait for the glorified Bharath Mala project completion for road repair work to begin


Instead of proposals for building roads or making promise of building xyz kilometers of road per year etc, i feel it is equally important to maintain the existing roads in good condition.
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Old 6th November 2017, 11:18   #44
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Default Re: All about the 35,000 km 7-lakh crore Bharatmala border road project

Excerpts from an article in Business Line on this subject. (Mr. Nitin Gadkari has addressed the media on 26th October, I think)

Quote:

No. of districts to be covered : 550

Construction Target : 10,000 kms a year

NHAI Expectations : 6,000 kms a year

Finances involved (2017-18 to 2021-22)

Budgetary support : Rs. 59,973 crore

Central Road Fund : Rs. 2,37,024 crore

Monetisation of projects : Rs. 34,000 crore

Average speed of road network is expect to improve and deaths on highways is expected to be cutdown (by 50%)

The article ends with -

" ..... the quality of highways would be such that they would see no potholes for the next 100 years"
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Old 6th November 2017, 11:34   #45
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Default Re: All about the 35,000 km 7-lakh crore Bharatmala border road project

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the quality of highways would be such that they would see no potholes for the next 100 years"
April Fool joke in October!

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Originally Posted by vrprabhu View Post
deaths on highways is expected to be cutdown (by 50%)
Now this can be done with scientific construction of highways. UK managed to do that with the help of road infrastructure specifically designed to reduce casualties

Name:  KSIs_GB_graph.gif
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KSI = Killed Or Seriously Injured
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