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Old 26th March 2008, 08:43   #31
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Nope, I dont think you can turn off ABS in any car, Indian or Imported. That would mess up the braking systems.

PS: One thing I forgot to add. I always wear the Seatbelt and was wearing it when the incident occured. So, as some one pointed out, of the 3 key safety devices, I had 2 for company - Seatbelts and ABS.
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Old 26th March 2008, 11:43   #32
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The most important safety accessory is Airbags. ABS, EBD etc are good to have.
Sad it is not mandatory in India unlike developed countries. Atleast it should be optional.
We are lucky to get seat belts.
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Old 26th March 2008, 11:47   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nitrous View Post
@vikram_d: You and Tadu should drive a non-ABS car and get your braking skills up.
I shall come to you for lessons. :-)

Quote:
Originally Posted by gopinathann View Post
If you consider in a straight line, car stops quickly without ABS, the reason being the skid causes more resistance to the car and stops quickly. If you turn the steering then the skid leaves you in dangerous situation.
The resistance created by the skid depends on the tyre compound and smoothness of the road surface. So in some cases the resistance may be more and in some it may be less. During rains there is no resistance as the car is already most likely aqua planing.

In such situations ABS works wonders. It does not depend on any external resistance.

Quote:
Originally Posted by diabloo View Post
Is it just me or anybody else who thinks without ABS the car would have stopped 15 ft from the target?
Without ABS the car in the hands of an experienced driver might have also come to a halt 30ft from the target. But with ABS in this particular case, irrespective of the experience levels of the driver it stopped the car in wet conditions well away from the target.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1100D View Post
What a coincidence, it was ABS itself that gave me an almost nasty surprise a few days back. Was driving on a gravel road leading to an intersecting tarmac. The gravel road had its own gentle curves and all. On nearing the intersecting tarmac, I needed to come to a complete halt before entering the road, but to my surprise, while braking the ABS kicked in instantaneously, the car was rolling more than it was braking. The car stopped after reaching a part of the tarmac. Thankfully there wasn't a vehicle in the vicinity, that could have hit me, or I would have hit.

Although I realised it as soon as I had encountered it, that ABS was messing it up for me. Usually on non ABS cars, on gravel, or any soft surface, the wheels dig (being locked) in while braking, giving more braking force. But in this case, the moment the brakes were applied, ABS kicked in to free the wheel, actually rolling over the small mound it would create everytime the wheel braked.

However, on Tarmac, no doubts that ABS does help in a huge way.

The whole intent was to make people aware of the behaviour ABS cars put up on gravel.
Yes on gravel and loose sand ABS is of absolutely no use as rightly pointed out by 1100D. In these conditions it is best to be light on the brakes and ensure that ABS is not activated.

Last edited by vikram_d : 26th March 2008 at 11:50.
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Old 26th March 2008, 12:08   #34
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For those interested in knowing more about ABS, please follow this link:

Q&As: Antilock brakes —*cars, trucks, motorcycles

Key point made (based on US data):

Although car antilocks perform well on the test track, there is no evidence they have made significant reductions in the number of on-the-road crashes. Even on wet and slippery roads, no difference in the frequency of insurance claims for vehicles with and without antilock brakes.



No difference in the overall fatal crash involvement of cars with and without antilocks.
According to one US Govt. report, "the overall, net effect of antilock brakes" on both police-reported crashes and fatal crashes "was close to zero. The federal studies of the effects of antilocks on passenger vehicle crashes found positive effects on wet roads and negative effects for run-off-road crashes. These results cancel each other.



Antilock-equipped cars were less likely to rear-end other vehicles but more likely to have other vehicles rear-end them. Again, the net result was little effect on overall crash risk.



Importantly, net beneficial effect of antilocks on nonfatal crashes but no effect on fatal crashes.
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Old 26th March 2008, 12:12   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by prashanthyr View Post
Nope, I dont think you can turn off ABS in any car, Indian or Imported. That would mess up the braking systems.

PS: One thing I forgot to add. I always wear the Seatbelt and was wearing it when the incident occured. So, as some one pointed out, of the 3 key safety devices, I had 2 for company - Seatbelts and ABS.

ABS can be turned off by pulling the fuse from the fuse box, but for certain vehicle if may also stop the odo from running. To locate the fuse on a specific model, the user manual will need to be consulted. Not sure if this can be done on Indian cars though.
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Old 26th March 2008, 12:14   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PatienceWins View Post
The most important safety accessory is Airbags. ABS, EBD etc are good to have.
Sad it is not mandatory in India unlike developed countries. Atleast it should be optional.
We are lucky to get seat belts.
ABS could save you from an accident, thus the airbag would not deploy at all! I'd say both are equally important.
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Old 26th March 2008, 12:34   #37
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Although ABS can have an important effect on non-fatal crashes and reducing car damage, one feature that is now becoming increasingly common is ESC or electronic stability control (ESC). ESC helps keep the vehicle on its intended path during a turn, to avoid sliding or skidding. If the car starts to drift, the ESC momentarily brakes one or more wheels and, depending on the system, reduces engine power to keep the car back on course. In the US, 55 percent of 2009 models, 75 percent of 2010 models, 95 percent of 2011 models, and 100 percent of 2012 models must have ESC. However, in India, only cars costing >20 lakhs may have ESC.

More on this here:

Q&As: Electronic Stability Control
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Old 26th March 2008, 20:28   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vikram_d View Post
Yes on gravel and loose sand ABS is of absolutely no use as rightly pointed out by 1100D. In these conditions it is best to be light on the brakes and ensure that ABS is not activated.
Its just that you need to be more careful on sand/gravel, with an ABS car than with a non-ABS car should you need the ability to come to a halt/slow down suddenly. In my case, my brake application was actually light, yet the ABS kicked in. Got my ABS system checked at the dealership, its fine.
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Old 26th March 2008, 21:35   #39
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Good to know that an accident was avoided. Or should I say an accident becoming more complicated was avoided??. Good to know that the two wheeler riders escaped with just the injuries already sustained and the car stopped in time.

Scene 1:

Road : Eyre Highway, Nullarbor Plains, Australia (stretch of 146 kms of straight road)

Car : BMW 323i - All Discs - ABS.

Speed : 120 KMPH on speedo

Event : Car in front about 100 feet ahead, also doing same speeds suddenly veers to the left then right and does a 360 degree spin. I just slam the brakes, ABS kicks in (I hear the khat-khat noise and can feel the jerks as brakes are applied and released in succession), car stops with about 20 feet to spare.

Scene 2:

Road : GQ between Vellore and Chennai

Car : Palio Stile 1.1 Front Discs, NO ABS

Speed : 110 KMPH on Speedo

Event : Two buses, one behind the other are stopped on the left lane to pick-up/drop passengers. I am on the right lane about 100 feet to go. The bus in the rear suddenly decides to take off and abruptly starts to enter the right lane. I hold the steering tight and slam the brakes. Car stops with about 20 feet to spare.

You be the judge.

Cheers,

Rajan
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Old 26th March 2008, 21:39   #40
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Fiat Wins n' Takes The Cake !!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by PatchyBoy View Post
Scene 1:
Road : Eyre Highway, Nullarbor Plains, Australia (stretch of 146 kms of straight road)
Car : BMW 323i - All Discs - ABS.
Speed : 120 KMPH on speedo

Scene 2:
Road : GQ between Vellore and Chennai
Car : Palio Stile 1.1 Front Discs, NO ABS
Speed : 110 KMPH on Speedo

You be the judge.
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Old 26th March 2008, 21:46   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PatchyBoy View Post
Scene 2:

Road : GQ between Vellore and Chennai

Car : Palio Stile 1.1 Front Discs, NO ABS

Speed : 110 KMPH on Speedo

Event : Two buses, one behind the other are stopped on the left lane to pick-up/drop passengers. I am on the right lane about 100 feet to go. The bus in the rear suddenly decides to take off and abruptly starts to enter the right lane. I hold the steering tight and slam the brakes. Car stops with about 20 feet to spare.

You havent mentioned if the car skidded or not. Slamming the brakes does not necessarily mean that it skidded. What make and size tyres did the car have? All this plays a very vital role.

What if you had only 50ft in both the instances? What then? Which do you think would have helped?
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Old 26th March 2008, 22:01   #42
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Vikram,

The point I am trying to make is that on a straight dry stretch, ABS does not really make a huge difference. In either case I could not swerve. The beemer was running on Pirelli 225/50 R16 and the palio was on Michilen 185/65 R14.

ABS comes into play especially on curves and when swerving. In the second scenario, if I swerved, I probabaly would have fishtailed. In the first case I would not have.

What I am trying to convey is:

ABS does not reduce braking distance.

In this event, the poster gives full credit to ABS for being able to stop in time. I think that the credit goes to the poster for having quick reflexes and also the fact that the speed was relatively low.

Answering your question, if I had only 50 ft in both cases - I would have crashed - ABS or no ABS. In the first case, I could not swerve as tha car in front was doing a literal break dance - no way of guessing which way to swerve. In the second case, I had the median fence on the right and the stationery first bus on the left.

Also consider what if in this case, the distance was only 30 feet? Do you think the poster would have avoided the crashed two wheelers by just braking and not swerving?

Cheers,

Rajan

Last edited by PatchyBoy : 26th March 2008 at 22:15.
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Old 26th March 2008, 22:11   #43
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We need to have strict rules from the GOVT to make ABS and some other features are mandatory for all the cars atleast. May be it should be a must feature for all the vehicles. If is in all the vehicles the price also goes down for the manufacturers. We should learn from some of the developed countries. You can find ABS in 10 years old car also in Germany. These are standard features. People who are spending lakhs on a car can spend some 10-15k for this feature.
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Old 26th March 2008, 22:13   #44
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Rajan,

I agree with almost all the things you have said. I have never stated that ABS reduces braking distance. In fact in one my posts I said an experienced driver can stop a vehicle better than ABS. All I have been trying to convey in this thread is that ABS will let you have some sort of control on the vehicle during panic braking. In both of your cases you did not need to swerve which was extremely lucky for you and all others involved.

The only point I dont agree with is that ABS does not help in the rain. I have done brake testing in my car at 100kmph in pouring rain on an extremely smooth tarmac road and the vehicle stoppped with the minimal of skids all the while allowing me to have perfect control over the the steering wheel.

In both your scenarios if you had the space to swerve. Dont you think the ABs equipped vehicle would have helped you more?

Last edited by vikram_d : 26th March 2008 at 22:15.
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Old 26th March 2008, 22:14   #45
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You were totally on a dry tarmac with good grip on both situations.

My observation was on Gravel where the wheel can dig-in on a non-ABS car. However on wet tarmac/ashphalt, ABS does provide better braking by unlocking the wheels from time to time,although the main benefit is the ability to steer past the obstacle in question.

Even in the dry, ABS also helps some people who "panic brake" and lose the steering as well as optimum stopping ability. But for a driver experienced with brake modulation, makes no difference in the dry.

Last edited by 1100D : 26th March 2008 at 22:16.
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