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Old 29th December 2008, 12:46   #31
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It's a case of trespassing. While his death is regretted, you can't exactly blame the officers for shooting him after giving him warnings. If he had been armed, or had been a suicide bomber or something & had caused an attack we would all be blaming the same officers for not taking swift action.
The rule is very simple, in case of trespassing in army/any of these organisations the officers are allowed to shoot.
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Old 29th December 2008, 12:46   #32
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The common point in all posts is that the suspect was "street racing" before he jumped into the Army quarters and was taken down.

The fact is, there were two guys on the bike, pulling wheelies (alone) and there wasn't any racing happening at all. So using the term "street racing" as a blanket for any zigzag, rash riding/driving, alone or in groups- like the familiar group of riders pulling wheelies in a procession almost every weekend on MG Road, is derogatory to say the least.

I do not support street racing at all, but the fact that everyone is aware of, is that if these young guys had a place and events to show their skills in a controlled environment, rash incidents like this will be curtailed to a major extent. Note, that I said rash incidents, not street racing, since even in countries with excellent motorsport infrastructure, like Japan and US, have not been able to do away with street racing completely, because of the fact that the first timers get to witness and experience racing on the street first, before hopefully graduating to safer environments.

It doesn't mean that one can generalise saying that all street racers are freshmen- there are some individuals for whom street racing has something that a controlled environment doesn't provide- and the fact that they know the limits of their vehicles to the t and don't endanger other lives on the road.

Like Keiichi Tsuchiya said to a character that potrayed his own life as a street racer in Shuto Kusokou Trials 2, Takahiro Yamanaka.

"I'm afraid if I raced you on the street, I'd push you to your death."

IMHO, the title of this thread needs to be changed, to ensure that an educated, informed automobile enthusiast community like team-bhp doesn't pass the wrong message to first-time visitors, which every other newspaper and media organisation has already done successfully.
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Old 29th December 2008, 12:55   #33
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W guys passed this spot about 10 mins before this incident took place. From what I saw street racing was definitely involved. There were 5 - 6 vtecs, 2 zens and few bikes all in this location. From what I have heard it seems that he was joining this group of people on Cubbon Road after his wheelie doing rides on the NICE Ring Road. I for one would not rule out the possibility of illegal street racing. I mean 1:00 in the morning on Cubbon Road. What were they thinking?
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Old 29th December 2008, 13:09   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vikram_d View Post
W guys passed this spot about 10 mins before this incident took place. From what I saw street racing was definitely involved. There were 5 - 6 vtecs, 2 zens and few bikes all in this location. From what I have heard it seems that he was joining this group of people on Cubbon Road after his wheelie doing rides on the NICE Ring Road. I for one would not rule out the possibility of illegal street racing. I mean 1:00 in the morning on Cubbon Road. What were they thinking?
No one in their right minds think of racing on Cubbon road anymore, as everyone is aware that there are cameras at junctions and cops are scattered over the area and ready to pounce on the first sign of trouble (usually a free-flow exhaust). In fact, there is a police barricade almost every night on the road going from Brigade road circle towards Shivaji Nagar. Under these circumstances, anyone driving a car with even a free-flow exhaust has no option but to cruise at 1.5k rpm to avoid attracting unwanted attention.

5-6 vtecs? Are you sure of this number and the fact that they weren't just OHCs. There are five modded VTECs in our close group and none of them were even close to Cubbon that night.
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Old 29th December 2008, 13:30   #35
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Originally Posted by Shan2nu View Post
I really dont see the connection between him being dead and street racing.

Anybody who jumps into an Army quarters and refuses to co-operate will obviously be taken down, irrespective of what he had been upto before he got in.
+1.
It's said that many HUJI militants have entered our country through Bangladesh. Considering this and all the militant activities that have taken place in our country in the recent past, no army man will take a chance.
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Old 29th December 2008, 13:36   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aaggoswami View Post
This is pure arrogance displayed by army and I wonder what next they will do. Come out on road and start opening fire at those whom they feel are suspects ?

I think that akshay4587 is correct, something is fishy.
Do you even know what you're talking about?? Stop talking nonsense and creating conspiracy theories.

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Originally Posted by snaronikar View Post
Now look at the irony of police, they have booked the case against the student for trespassing and have ordered an inquiry...whatz the use of this now. A life is already lost and they are planning to bring a dead man to justice OR they just want to show off that they are conducting an inquiry to know the actual cause. They could have very well closed the case as the accused is already dead...
I agree with Ajmat, an enquiry is required as part of the law/procedure to make sure that correct sequence of events and determine who exactly was at fault in the incident.

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Originally Posted by lazy View Post
Its an unfortunate incident, but before blaming the army put yourself in the armyman's shoes:
- its 1 AM, totally dark, he cant see whether the intruder is armed or not, - can't see enough to verify whether he hasn't planted a bomb on the house top, the house was a Brigadiers residence,
- the intruder isn't heeding his warnings to surrender
- these days all defence establishments are on high alert,
- he fires 3 times in the air to warn him, repetedly asking him to surrender,
- then when the intruder tries to scale the wall to run away, he is shot.

I dont think the sentry was being trigger happy. These are extra-ordinary times, and the forces aren't taking chances.

cheers
lazy.
I agree with Lazy here, his assessment of the situation is bang-on.

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Originally Posted by vivekiny2k View Post
When you are stopped and challenged to surrender, in a secure area, you should not be making mobile calls, definitely not in urdu. this case should be publicized and should be a lesson. listen to and obey the authorities.
It's just not the phone calls Vivek, it's the whole incident. Close to 1am you're sitting on the compound wall whispering to someone on your mobile phone. You're challenged to identify yourself & surrender but you think it's more prudent to try & escape. Let's face it, the circumstansial evidence points to you being a threat & a suspicious character. End result in current scenario would be almost always the same.
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Old 29th December 2008, 13:51   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by doomsday View Post
No one in their right minds think of racing on Cubbon road anymore, as everyone is aware that there are cameras at junctions and cops are scattered over the area and ready to pounce on the first sign of trouble (usually a free-flow exhaust). In fact, there is a police barricade almost every night on the road going from Brigade road circle towards Shivaji Nagar. Under these circumstances, anyone driving a car with even a free-flow exhaust has no option but to cruise at 1.5k rpm to avoid attracting unwanted attention.

5-6 vtecs? Are you sure of this number and the fact that they weren't just OHCs. There are five modded VTECs in our close group and none of them were even close to Cubbon that night.
Anybody doing illegal street racing is never in their right minds.

Yes they might have been modded OHC's also. Sorry about naming them as Vtec's. Who said anything about your group being there?
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Old 29th December 2008, 13:55   #38
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Originally Posted by spawnofsatan View Post
@aagoswami & bubby - There is nothing fishy here, the boy did not heed the armies warnings, at a time like this NO ONE should be taking such chances. The terrorists that killed so many in Mumbai were also in their mid to early twenties and spoke punjabi and urdu. Yeah it appeared he did not have weapons, what if he had a hand grenade or a bomb strapped to himself for a suicide mission? What then? In such a case you would be saying "maybe the army should've done more". My point is no one should be playing around or joking about national security PERIOD.
I think prevention is better than cure. Why did the Mumbai case happen in the first place ?
And then Under the Mumbai incidence, Army has a right to open fire as soon as they find someone suspect, right ?
Agreed that actions from the bike rider were bad in the first place. But if he had weapons, he would have definitely fired back if three rounds were fired in air.
In mumbai we are able to catch a terrorist alive, and it was definitely a bad situation as we know, so I think here also they could have caught him alive.
People are mentioning it was pitch dark, so how can army guards just shoot like that ? Anybody could have been hurt. And if it was really dark then how they came to know that where the suspect is running ? And how they manage to shoot him down, by just firing in the dark ?
So can it be justified that in the dark they manage to see the suspect and then shoot ?
Or is it that it was dark and so they just fired and so he got killed. So is opening a fire in the dark a nice and responsible action ?

There are many unanswered questions and from the point I read this in today's newspaper, I was sure this is more complex.


Quote:
Originally Posted by iraghava View Post

Do you even know what you're talking about?? Stop talking nonsense and creating conspiracy theories.
I am very sorry if my post makes you think like that, but my opinion remains the same : The army could have avoided killing.

From all the information available to me, this is what I feel.
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Old 29th December 2008, 13:56   #39
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It is funny to hear posts holding army at fault. People should realise that this happened in darkness, army and the much famed NSG are all trained to kill while the police are trained to take people alive. In this case the deceased was at fault to not surrender. No army person is going to allow intruders to run around with them watching it !!
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Old 29th December 2008, 14:00   #40
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I completely side with the Army and Police actions here. More of such reminders of the law- especially to anyone who believes the law is meant to be shown contempt for, and this nonsense of illegal street racing should bite the dust permanently.

Last edited by theMAG : 29th December 2008 at 14:08.
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Old 29th December 2008, 14:01   #41
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If I find an intruder sitting in a corner of my house.
Refuses to come into light and identify himself. I will take whatever action I am capable of.
The army guy did the right thing.
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Old 29th December 2008, 14:02   #42
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Originally Posted by emkay456 View Post
It is funny to hear posts holding army at fault. People should realise that this happened in darkness, army and the much famed NSG are all trained to kill while the police are trained to take people alive. In this case the deceased was at fault to not surrender. No army person is going to allow intruders to run around with them watching it !!
@mods: sorry for repeteative post but wanted to quote this post.

How in the dark they can come to know that a person is not surrendering or has slowed down ?
So are the NSG trained to see in darkness and then shoot, and in Mumbai it was by chance they caught one person alive,right ? This would be update for me.

Last edited by aaggoswami : 29th December 2008 at 14:04.
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Old 29th December 2008, 14:07   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aaggoswami View Post
@mods: sorry for repeteative post but wanted to quote this post.

How in the dark they can come to know that a person is not surrendering or has slowed down ?
So are the NSG trained to see in darkness and then shoot, and in Mumbai it was by chance they caught one person alive,right ? This would be update for me.
Because when you surrender you throw your arms up in the air and say I surrender. You don't talk on your cell phone with friends asking them to come and help you. More over you don't do all this on top of an Army Brigadier's house at 1:00am in the morning.

In Mumbai, the police caught the terrorist alive and not the NSG. The NSG went in and finished all the terrorists.
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Old 29th December 2008, 14:16   #44
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The NSG's are trained to finish the threat, not to do a rescue and recovery job in most cases. It was because of hostages that it took them so long in Mumbai. Incidentally I think given the context of today's situation any one who decides not to identify himself under suspicious circumstances for what ever reasons is at risk of being retaliated
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Old 29th December 2008, 14:23   #45
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It is a sad. Such incident should not have taken place. It is not the age for dying just but to have a life.

Where the defence services are concerned, the senstivity is very high. It is all over the world. A complete passenger plance has been brought down by missile due to arrogance. Please note that in America, a pilot of a commercial airline was put behind bars for two years just for laughing and passng a comment during security check.

Considering the recent events, I doubt, even ordinary person would have restrained himself. And army personnel are already under lot of stress due to terrorism, media and our politicians statements. And I doubt, if there is some destressing is done to those personnel. There has been incidences of killing each other or committing suicide. So under such condition, it is difficult to blame the army entirely.

At the age of 20, he has got the right to vote. Now what kind of thinking he has and what kind of people he would vote for?

Last edited by jat : 29th December 2008 at 14:25.
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