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Old 13th December 2011, 00:10   #271
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Default Re: Say NO to HIGH-BEAM

Hi everybody
Great posts.
Unfortunately people are uncaring for the right of others.
In a city like bombay where the roads are well lit and bumper to bumper traffic you dont even need headlamps forget hibeam ones.Yet you will see practically most of them driving with hibeams.What is more irritating is when you stop at a signal and you have a full beam right in your face.
40 years back people would shout at you if you had your head lamps on.I have a hazy recollection that it was a traffic offense.Though not sure about it.
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Old 13th December 2011, 00:11   #272
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Default Re: Say NO to HIGH-BEAM

As per my experience, within the city most of the times people drive on high beam no matter how much you signal them they will not turn off the high beam and 60% of the cars showing this behavior are the call center cabs. On the highways however the trucks do respond most of the time and switch to a lower beam while passing a car.

On some of the highways you see small bushes (around 3ft tall) planted on the central divider which is a great way to stop the beams coming from the opposite lane.

As already pointed earlier in the thread , I too agree that the traffic cops should take the initiative and educate the people and come up with certain norms which would save people from the high beams
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Old 13th December 2011, 00:22   #273
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Default Re: Say NO to HIGH-BEAM

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Originally Posted by nilanjanray View Post
While ideally low beam is a superior solution, reality makes it unsafe to drive on low beams at decent speeds on our highways
"Decent" speeds is not the point: safe speeds is the point.

If you cant see, don't turn on the high beams: slow down!
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Old 13th December 2011, 08:32   #274
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Default Re: Say NO to HIGH-BEAM

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Originally Posted by Thad E Ginathom View Post
"Decent" speeds is not the point: safe speeds is the point.

If you cant see, don't turn on the high beams: slow down!
Decent speed = safe speed in my book. Decent speed = speed at which one has adequate reaction time, visibility and control over the vehicle. Decent speed is not constant - it becomes low when vehicles are coming at you on high beam, and higher when you have an empty road ahead of you. No point in arguing semantics unless you know how the person drives and how he defines decent/safe speeds, right?

Slowing down everytime keeping low beam on (that is never switching on high beam) not a practical option on some of the highways. One will permanently crawl at 20 kmph since every 10 seconds there is someone coming with 2 or more 100/90 or higher spec lights on full blast. How long will even a 250 km journey take?

I never use high beam in the city even when facing high beams and spot lights within the city. I flash, if the other person doesn't respond, I don't bother and go on my way on low beam.

However, on our 'fantastic' highways (NH and SH), I feel that high beam offers more safety especially to people and animals on our roads when there is no oncoming traffic. And I am all for dipping as soon as I see another vehicle (basic driving 101 and etiquette). But one needs to protect ones visibility and choice of actions (e.g. move to the side/stop/accelerate) when people are coming at you at full blast oblivious to your multiple dipping requests.

Our highways are unpredictable. Given that almost all highways have no lights, what speed will you drive at on low beams to have plenty of time to avoid missing a dog/drunk suddenly trying to cross the road or 3 people wearing dark clothes walking side by side and then one meandering in the middle of the road suddenly? Of course, following another vehicle in the night makes things much easier - but sometimes that is not possible.

I want to all the time (visibility) I can get to take appropriate action. My reflexes are good, but I like all the reaction time I can get, given that I drive a heavy and tall vehicle.

Last edited by nilanjanray : 13th December 2011 at 08:57.
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Old 13th December 2011, 17:33   #275
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Default Re: Say NO to HIGH-BEAM

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what speed will you drive at on low beams to have plenty of time to avoid missing a dog/drunk suddenly trying to cross the road or 3 people wearing dark clothes walking side by side and then one meandering in the middle of the road suddenly?
It is impossible situation. The answer may even be that such roads are not fit for night driving.

Even in the city, a dark curve when suddenly entering a powercut area (it's easier to drive in constant dark than to do from lit to dark, when the eyes need to adjust) can make me feel that walking speed itself is almost too fast.
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Old 15th December 2011, 10:34   #276
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Default Re: Say NO to HIGH-BEAM

Excellent!!

http://lite.epaper.timesofindia.com/...=&publabel=TOI

High beams: 3,000 offenders challaned in 5 days


Indrani Basu TNN

New Delhi: Cracking down on drivers using headlights on high beam,Delhi traffic police has prosecuted 3000-odd vehicles in just five days.However,there is an urgent requirement for an all-year prosecution.
In the special drive conducted from December 8-13,2924 drivers have been booked for the offence,with a staggering 2055 of them being private car owners.While south Delhi has turned out to be the most notorious with 990 prosecutions,the northern range is close behind with 667 challans having been issued.All this in just hour-long drives every night between 8-9 pm.Waking up to the gravity of the threat,cops are planning to to keep a closer watch on offenders.
Driving in high beam poses danger for both the motorist using the beam as well as vehicles coming from the opposite direction.While the light dazzles the vehicle owner on the opposite carriageway,the driver using the high beam is also affected as the light bounces off fog.We have been conducting intensive checking not just to prosecute drivers but also to educate them, explained joint commissioner of police (traffic ) Satyendra Garg.
Under Rule 112.4 (a) of Delhi Motor Vehicles Act,Driver of a motor vehicle shall at all times,when the lights of the vehicle are in use,so manipulate them that danger or undue convenience is not caused to any person by dazzle.
Explained KK Kapila,chairman of International Road Federation,High beams are not meant for use inside the city.This is a universally respected road rule.They are supposed to be used only in multiple-laned highways where there is no chance of a motorist blinding drivers travelling in the opposite direction.They can be used in highways with no streetlights.High beams are necessarily required due to the fast pace of vehicles.Within city limits,vehicles travel at a much slower speed.The government should consider issuing guidelines prohibiting the use of high beams within city limits as it is a serious concern.Drivers should instead use fog lights,which do not blind others and provide better visibility.
According to traffic cops,most drivers prosecuted pleaded ignorance of the rules.While most claimed that they were unaware that using high beams is an offence,there are plenty of drivers who dont care for the inconvenience caused to others.Most of the offenders are private vehicle owners,who are educated and should be more careful, said a senior traffic police officer.
On Tuesday,the Vasant Vihar and IGI traffic circles recorded the highest number of offences with 42 and 52 prosecutions each.
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Old 15th December 2011, 10:57   #277
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Default Re: Say NO to HIGH-BEAM

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Originally Posted by faustus77 View Post
Hi everybody
Great posts.
I have a hazy recollection that it was a traffic offense.Though not sure about it.
Regards
In Karnataka, in the traffic rules existing from the early 80's this offence is classified as " DRIVING USING DAZZLING LIGHTS " Fine Rs 100.

It's a different thing that Bangalore doesn't have any well lit roads except public thoroughfares, but the same menace continues here too.
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Old 15th December 2011, 16:37   #278
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Default Re: Say NO to HIGH-BEAM

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Originally Posted by nilanjanray View Post
Decent speed = safe speed in my book. Decent speed = speed at which one has adequate reaction time, visibility and control over the vehicle. Decent speed is not constant - it becomes low when vehicles are coming at you on high beam, and higher when you have an empty road ahead of you. No point in arguing semantics unless you know how the person drives and how he defines decent/safe speeds, right?

Slowing down everytime keeping low beam on (that is never switching on high beam) not a practical option on some of the highways. One will permanently crawl at 20 kmph since every 10 seconds there is someone coming with 2 or more 100/90 or higher spec lights on full blast. How long will even a 250 km journey take?

I never use high beam in the city even when facing high beams and spot lights within the city. I flash, if the other person doesn't respond, I don't bother and go on my way on low beam.

However, on our 'fantastic' highways (NH and SH), I feel that high beam offers more safety especially to people and animals on our roads when there is no oncoming traffic. And I am all for dipping as soon as I see another vehicle (basic driving 101 and etiquette). But one needs to protect ones visibility and choice of actions (e.g. move to the side/stop/accelerate) when people are coming at you at full blast oblivious to your multiple dipping requests.

Our highways are unpredictable. Given that almost all highways have no lights, what speed will you drive at on low beams to have plenty of time to avoid missing a dog/drunk suddenly trying to cross the road or 3 people wearing dark clothes walking side by side and then one meandering in the middle of the road suddenly? Of course, following another vehicle in the night makes things much easier - but sometimes that is not possible.

I want to all the time (visibility) I can get to take appropriate action. My reflexes are good, but I like all the reaction time I can get, given that I drive a heavy and tall vehicle.
Nilanjan and others who are in favor of high beams because of numerous reasons given out e.g. sudden appearance of animals, human, potholes etc., opposite traffic on high beam and so on; I have explained that in all those cases high beam is of no help. as "Thad E Ginathom" also suggested a slower speed is of at most importance and of great help too.

1. animals and human can see your car even when car has only low beam on. so, no need of high beam to make yourself visible.

2. You will see animals and human even with low beam and if you are driving at right speed for your visibility, you will be able to stop before hitting them. (of course, provided, they are not on suicidal mission). so again, no need of high beams.

3. Opposite traffic on high beams so, you turn on your high beam or you keep it tunred on. How is this going to help you or opposite driver?, i fail to understand. (but then i never tried driving with highbeam in those conditions! so, might be useful if someone can bring more insight into the phenomenon.)

4. for all normal/practical driving purposes low beam(combined with fog lamps for potholes and for lighting up the roadsides, specially on indian roads) is enough. highbeams are only required to see signboards and high bushes and trees and you can only use highbeams when you are alone on the road.

I used high beams on german, so called, landstrassen(roughly translates to "country side roads") when i was alone on road because i wanted to see the road signs which tells/warns you about sharp turns, deer/animal crossings, no overtaking zones, speed limits, next city/village info etc. and these sign post are high, you see, so i needed high beam and because i would be travelling at like 80-100kmph so, i need to know all that well in advance.(and there weren't any potholes, untill unless well marked with signpost at least 100mts before!)

All in all, people come up with same excuses or reasons one after another but i personally don't see any convincing reasoning behind it. it's like over speeding, honking and overtaking in building primises, even at hospitals, library, parking lots and offices buildings; i do over speed(above 10kmph) because i am late or you are slow so I honk to overtake. none of them is valid reason to do any of these actions. but i had very hard time to explain that to some guys/gals and was still unable to get the massage through.

Last edited by Suess : 15th December 2011 at 16:43.
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Old 15th December 2011, 17:34   #279
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Default Re: Say NO to HIGH-BEAM

I am not sure how much practical experience you have in highway night driving in India, and in which highways - or whether you are commenting from your experience in other types of roads/countries. Here are my comments in bold:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Suess View Post
Nilanjan and others who are in favor of high beams because of numerous reasons given out e.g. sudden appearance of animals, human, potholes etc., opposite traffic on high beam and so on; I have explained that in all those cases high beam is of no help. as "Thad E Ginathom" also suggested a slower speed is of at most importance and of great help too.

1. animals and human can see your car even when car has only low beam on. so, no need of high beam to make yourself visible.
It is not about whether they can see me. See/not see, they still come suddenly on the road. It is about how much reaction time I have when i see them.

2. You will see animals and human even with low beam and if you are driving at right speed for your visibility, you will be able to stop before hitting them. (of course, provided, they are not on suicidal mission). so again, no need of high beams.
No. With high beam you get extra seconds or extra split seconds of reaction time. At least with my powerful projector headlights I do.

A big difference with powerful and focused high beams: I can see beforehand that someone is about to do something funny and can flash/ honk and prevent an animal/ crazy human from jumping onto the road in a dark highway, or a no light + dark clothed cyclist from swaying onto the middle of the road. With low beam, I have little preventive actions - I can only react.

3. Opposite traffic on high beams so, you turn on your high beam or you keep it tunred on. How is this going to help you or opposite driver?, i fail to understand. (but then i never tried driving with highbeam in those conditions! so, might be useful if someone can bring more insight into the phenomenon.)
When a vehicle comes at me on high beams and refuses to dip, if I switch on my high beam and focus on my side of the road, I can still see where I am going and who is on ahead or on the left side of me when I use my Fortuner projector high beams. When I drive my SX4, I have far less visibility and my speed and actions depend accordingly. When I used to drive my Indica with its pathetic lights on highways, I was always forced to stop and wait for the 4-6-eyed monsters to pass. Again, it depends on visibility levels.

4. for all normal/practical driving purposes low beam(combined with fog lamps for potholes and for lighting up the roadsides, specially on indian roads) is enough. highbeams are only required to see signboards and high bushes and trees and you can only use highbeams when you are alone on the road.

I used high beams on german, so called, landstrassen(roughly translates to "country side roads") when i was alone on road because i wanted to see the road signs which tells/warns you about sharp turns, deer/animal crossings, no overtaking zones, speed limits, next city/village info etc. and these sign post are high, you see, so i needed high beam and because i would be travelling at like 80-100kmph so, i need to know all that well in advance.(and there weren't any potholes, untill unless well marked with signpost at least 100mts before!)

This is India. We have to expect the unexpected here - potholes, bumps, crazy animals and humans. Have you driven on 2 lane dark highways such as NH 209? It is different on well traveled 4-6 lane Expressways or highways where one can easily tag along behind some other vehicle. Not all highways are equal. And we have (and I often drive on) roads going through countryside and jungle.

All in all, people come up with same excuses or reasons one after another but i personally don't see any convincing reasoning behind it. it's like over speeding, honking and overtaking in building primises, even at hospitals, library, parking lots and offices buildings; i do over speed(above 10kmph) because i am late or you are slow so I honk to overtake. none of them is valid reason to do any of these actions. but i had very hard time to explain that to some guys/gals and was still unable to get the massage through.
You don't see. Fine. Perhaps we drive on different types of roads at different times of the night. Besides, I prefer temporary and equal inconvenience for an oncoming 'refusing to dip' vehicle to increased chance of hitting a stray animal or human by driving permanently on low beam. A car can survive a graze. An animal or human being can't.

I like night driving. And crawling along half blinded, turning the other cheek at 20-50 kmph on a highway is unacceptable. I will have to stop my weekend getaways if I do that.

Last edited by nilanjanray : 15th December 2011 at 17:40.
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Old 15th December 2011, 17:57   #280
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Default Re: Say NO to HIGH-BEAM

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Originally Posted by nilanjanray View Post
I am not sure how much practical experience you have in highway night driving in India, and in which highways - or whether you are commenting from your experience in other types of roads/countries. Here are my comments in bold:



You don't see. Fine. Perhaps we drive on different types of roads at different times of the night. Besides, I prefer temporary and equal inconvenience for an oncoming 'refusing to dip' vehicle to increased chance of hitting a stray animal or human by driving permanently on low beam. A car can survive a graze. An animal or human being can't.

I like night driving. And crawling along half blinded, turning the other cheek at 20-50 kmph on a highway is unacceptable. I will have to stop my weekend getaways if I do that.
I am not sure if you gone through the thread/s but here is one where i tried to explain why we don't need high beam:

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/street...ml#post2434230 (Say NO to HIGH-BEAM)

just i am coping something out of it:
"2. todays cars/vehicle(fitted with standard lamps), throw the sufficient light beam till ca. 50-60 mts. away in "low beam". with this much light/visibility you should be able to drive at speed as high as 100-120kmph. and i don't know many roads in india where you can do so fast in night.(normally speed limits are at 80-100kmph on express highways, and mind they are there for reasons like road conditions, road construction quality, bends on the road etc.). If you are not sure about road conditions, you shouldn't be driving at 100kmph anyway."

so, the highways(in india), i have driven in night regularly for last 12-15 years, GT Road(w/o, w/ divider), Chennai-Pondycherry ECR(w/o divide), Chennai-Bangelore, Delhi-Jaipur-Jodhpur etc., are not capable of handling anywhere 100-120kmph in night.

But see Nilanjan, that's not the point, point is potholes, you can't see with high beams, animals and human jumping in front of your car in your visibility cone can be voided/or not avoided depending on your speed, not depending on car high beam or low beam. in fact with high beam you will startle them. these obstacles appearing suddenly outside of your visibility cone/range are not sudden and will give you ample time to react.

and landstarssen are not highways. these are just two lane (w/o divider) roads.

Last edited by Suess : 15th December 2011 at 18:02.
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Old 15th December 2011, 18:23   #281
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Default Re: Say NO to HIGH-BEAM

Putting on low-beam is a big worry for me on the non-lit highways of Kerala.

Regardless of the oncoming vehicle dipping to low-beam or not, travelling at a 40 kmph or at the maximum allowed 70 kmph, I just can't see the cyclist and the lone walker on the side of the road unless I put high-beam.
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Old 15th December 2011, 18:32   #282
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I have not gone through the entire thread.

But I strongly disagree with the premise that it is possible to drive at 100-120kmph on low beams. No way. At 100 kmph you have 1.8 seconds to react when something comes in front of you 50 m away.

I agree that there are very few highways where you can drive at 120kmph in the night outside the GQ or other 4 or 6 lane highways.

I don't disagree that the lower the speed the better it is. However, I don't agree with the line of thought that it is possible or even desirable to drive on low beams - even with no oncoming traffic - throughout unless one is following a vehicle.

Anyway, let's agree to disagree. There are many variables - type and quality of road, width of road, visibility/open stretches on the left and right sides of the road, type of vehicle one is driving, beam quality, animal and human density, habit of local drivers etc.

@ thoma: I agree. I am talking about similar roads.

Last edited by nilanjanray : 15th December 2011 at 18:38.
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Old 15th December 2011, 18:43   #283
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I have not gone through the entire thread.

But I strongly disagree with the premise that it is possible to drive at 100-120kmph on low beams. No way. At 100 kmph you have 1.8 seconds to react when something comes in front of you 50 m away.

I agree that there are very few highways where you can drive at 120kmph outside the 4 or 6 lane highways.

I don't disagree that the lower the speed the better it is. However, I don't agree with the line of thought that it is possible or even desirable to drive on low beams - even with no oncoming traffic - throughout unless one is following a vehicle.

Anyway, let's agree to disagree. There are many variables - type and quality of road, width of road, visibility/open stretches on the left and right sides of the road, type of vehicle one is driving, beam quality, animal and human density, habit of local drivers etc.
it is possible, i am sure that you know the rule about safe distance/stopping distance. which goes like "always keep half of your speed in mts distance from other car driving in front of you." because you need that distance to come to complete halt. so, at 100-120kmph you should be able to stop in 50-60mts. and as the speed limit on indian highways(good ones) are like 80kmph so, you are well within the time/distance to stop safely from what you can see clearly.

again, i never said that you shouldn't be using high beams invaribly. you can use them when no one is in front of you to see more of the road and street signs. that's why we have it in cars.
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Old 15th December 2011, 18:47   #284
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Default Re: Say NO to HIGH-BEAM

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But I strongly disagree with the premise that it is possible to drive at 100-120kmph on low beams. No way. At 100 kmph you have 1.8 seconds to react when something comes in front of you 50 m away.
In a well lit road (city, town roads) , I *never* use high beams. But on a road with no lights (out of town), I go to high beam as soon as I cross 50~60Kmph. If there is a on-coming vehicle, I go to low beam and as I am passing, I switch on the high beam again. No way I can drive at 100Kmph on low beam, unless I am passing a vehicle.

Last edited by msdivy : 15th December 2011 at 18:49.
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Old 15th December 2011, 18:57   #285
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it is possible, i am sure that you know the rule about safe distance/stopping distance. which goes like "always keep half of your speed in mts distance from other car driving in front of you." because you need that distance to come to complete halt. so, at 100-120kmph you should be able to stop in 50-60mts. and as the speed limit on indian highways(good ones) are like 80kmph so, you are well within the time/distance to stop safely from what you can see clearly.

again, i never said that you shouldn't be using high beams invaribly. you can use them when no one is in front of you to see more of the road and street signs. that's why we have it in cars.
Thanked you by mistake while trying to quote.

Possible? Under perfect conditions, yes. Practically, no. I feel it is a recipe for disaster on our Indian 2 lane highways: low beams + highish speeds (anything above 50 - 60 kmph on low beams unless one is following a vehicle). See how far that '50m visibility' drops when you have oncoming vehicles on high beams or changing light conditions.

"you can use them when no one is in front of you to see more of the road and street signs. that's why we have it in cars" - that is what most folks are saying anyway. I don't think anyone is talking about following/overtaking a vehicle with high beams on or keeping high beam on while going through a lighted area.

I also don't understand why people are ignoring type of vehicle. A great handling hard braking sedan or hatchback gives one a lot more leeway to react suddenly. Driving a 2 ton SUV and then trying emergency maneuvers is a different matter. I prefer taking preventive measures rather than taking reacting at the last moment.
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