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Old 28th December 2009, 11:07   #31
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Originally Posted by tsk13 View Post
Gaurav, you're all correct.


Guys, the car didn't collide with the barricade at 140km/h. It first hit the divider on it's right and went on to collide with the barricade on the left. The collision with the divider must have de-accelerated the car and it went on to hit the barricade at a slower speed than 140km/h. Since my cousin hasn't viewed the thread, any discrepancies in my narration (if there) will surely be corrected. Whatever I have posted is true to the best of my knowledge.
My friend, look at the picture of the Audi. Does the right side(drivers side) of the car even look like it hit anything at 140kmph thereby slowing it down. I know you want to help your cousin, but in order for us to do that I suggest you let him view the thread first and then ask him to put out the story of what actually happened here.

Only then would we be able to give him the right kind of advice instead of wasting time speculating as to what actually happened.

More importantly please do tell him to get the ECU checked with the computer and put up the data results here (if possible). That way we can put an end to all theories.
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Old 28th December 2009, 11:37   #32
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Originally Posted by tsk13 View Post
Since the car is with them for repairs, I suppose everything would've been cleared by now including all errors.

The incident transpired 3 weeks ago, so no point in finding the skid marks now. I posted this thread now as I just finished with my exams.
Ok.. but here’s another clue you can follow up your query for ABS with.

In case the accident takes place with a mechanical part going kaput, the insurance company will not pay for that part. So the insurance pays for all the damages less the part which went kaput.

Check the estimate part list given to your brother, if there is any part related to ABS, ABS motor or anything else, then look for visible damage on the part. If visible damage could be seen, there is nothing much you can do, but if there is no visible damage, you can ask for the part to be checked in a test lab.

Ask you brother to be present at the Audi service centre, when the re-inspection is due once the car is repaired. Surveyors do check for visible damages. I don’t think, if anything related to ABS is kaput, Audi will replace it with their own pocket without informing you. More likely, they will put all the burden on the insurance company.

Lastly, before your brother pay for the damages, ask him to take a good long drive and check everything thoroughly including the ABS. Also, once again check the final bill for any ABS related part replaced. The initial estimate and final bill varies a lot. Once the re-inspection is done and you pay the balance amount of damages apart from insurance amount, there is nothing much you can do about any part malfunctioning in the car that was not reported damaged after the accident. However, if the car is in warranty, there is very little to worry.
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Old 28th December 2009, 11:40   #33
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Irrelevant portion - goons and the chase or why the car was fast.
Relevant portion - Crash on braking.

ABS - Does not mean more braking. It only prevents wheels from lock up and give you some steering ability under harsh braking. So if there was dust/loose gravel on the road the braking distance increase drastically as the wheels can only find so much grip before they begin to lock and are prevented by ABS in doing so.

Airbags will deploy only if crash deformation goes beyond a particular point. I do not think any air bag deployment occurs only due to de-acceleration. Assuming speed of 140+ the body seems to have absorbed the impact rather nicely. Mostly airbags deployment is with frontal impacts (and side impacts in higher end models like this one).

But then this is just a guess work on my part. Taking manufacturer to court on weak grounds would need real hard thinking.
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Old 28th December 2009, 11:56   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by funkydevil View Post
My friend, look at the picture of the Audi. Does the right side(drivers side) of the car even look like it hit anything at 140kmph thereby slowing it down. I know you want to help your cousin, but in order for us to do that I suggest you let him view the thread first and then ask him to put out the story of what actually happened here.
Any normal driver will try to steer to the opposite side as soon as his car hits an object. In this case, as soon as the driver would have realised that the car has hit the divider on the right, he would have tried to steer on the left, hence loosing the control of the car, a bit of an understeer in the car, hitting the divider on the left.

Thus the driver in order to save the damage on the right, steered, lost control and hit the barricaes on the left.

its not that the car went straight into the barricates, at 140 it may have hit the divider on the right, and would have deaccelerated a lot during the span it hit the barricaes on the left, Hence less damage.

Its not about speculating Sir. Dont get me wrong but do you know the reason why 55 cars bang one after another on a UK motorway. Yes, you may know because you are a local there and its the driving conditions. All the cars are on same average high speed (70 miles/hr) with limited stopping distance, so when the first car brakes, the remaining cars at the back dont have enough time and distance to stop and hit one after another in the cars in front of them. Its a chain reaction and any thing like this has never happened in India because driving conditions are different.

What I mean to say is that there are a few things only a local can understand, the location and the driving conditions. India is a big counrty and driving conditions change within a few kms. the fair example is Delhi and Gurgaon (a stretch of only 20 odd miles). Moreover, driving conditions within delhi itself differs, (can we compare central and south delhi to old delhi.. No we cant).

Quote:
Originally Posted by sudev View Post
ABS - Does not mean more braking. It only prevents wheels from lock up and give you some steering ability under harsh braking. So if there was dust/loose gravel on the road the braking distance increase drastically as the wheels can only find so much grip before they begin to lock and are prevented by ABS in doing so.
Exactly. ABS does not mean more braking! Another example is: stopping dispance in more during rains whether the car has ABS or not.

Last edited by gaurav_chopra04 : 28th December 2009 at 12:11.
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Old 28th December 2009, 12:05   #35
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@gaurav, I get what you're saying.

But no way can a car hit a divider @140kmph without showing exterior damage, and IMO, the right tyre bursting on impact. From the pictures posted, the right front tyre seems to be ok - but I had asked this question to be sure ...
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Old 28th December 2009, 12:05   #36
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Another thing to note is that most of the damage has happened to the underside of the car. I've heard that airbags only come on, if the center of the collision is within a specified area. its also possible that the rate of deceleration maynot have been that great as the car went in an upward direction.

2ndly, as mentioned before, looking at the impact, its not possible for the car to be doing anywhere close to 140kmph.

Maybe the driver remembers driving at 140 before he crashed, but the car must have reduced its speed to a much lower speed at impact.

I also see the road turning just behind the crashed car. So if your cousin entered that tight corner at 140kmph, even the electronic gizmos wouldn't have been able to help much.

So if you combine the possibilities of the speed at which the car hit, the area of the car that took a large percentage of the impact and the rate of deceleration. There might be a technical explaination as to why the airbags didn't deploy.

As for the ABS, its diff to prove that it didn't work, based on just the drivers statement.

Shan2nu

Last edited by Shan2nu : 28th December 2009 at 12:12.
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Old 28th December 2009, 13:49   #37
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From my experience of seeing / being part of various collisions - from simple bicycles to cars -
I developed interest in this area when my bicycle hit another bicycle from opposite direction and my bicycle's interlinking fork got cut. None of them who saw the damage believed that is was another cycle that hit mine. Everyone suggested it ought to be a heavy vehicle and I'm just hiding facts to escape from being criticized and to evade ban on using bicycle.

To me, it is extremely difficult to get the right speed of the vehicle based on the damages done to the vehicles.
We tend to map the damages and the speed - as one to one. Though it may be true in most of the cases, it is not so in few cases.
I have seen extreme damages for a relatively minor collision and viceversa.
Speed is just one factor.
There are computer systems developed for simulating collision where umpteen factors are considered.

@tsk13, you have every right to get explanation from Audi. So I suggest you write to concerned person at Audi with detailed narration and ask for explanation. I'm sure you should get it.
If you could post the reply from Audi in this forum, it would be of great help.
I really do not think you can get respite from legal actions. If you want, you should really get all facts before taking up legal course. Otherwise you end up wasting time and money.
For instance, as pointed out, airbags would not work under certain speed limits. How would you prove that the car was traveling above the threshold?
There might be other things too, which might be difficult in proving.
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Old 28th December 2009, 19:25   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shan2nu View Post
Another thing to note is that most of the damage has happened to the underside of the car. I've heard that airbags only come on, if the center of the collision is within a specified area. its also possible that the rate of deceleration maynot have been that great as the car went in an upward direction.

2ndly, as mentioned before, looking at the impact, its not possible for the car to be doing anywhere close to 140kmph.

Maybe the driver remembers driving at 140 before he crashed, but the car must have reduced its speed to a much lower speed at impact.

I also see the road turning just behind the crashed car. So if your cousin entered that tight corner at 140kmph, even the electronic gizmos wouldn't have been able to help much.

So if you combine the possibilities of the speed at which the car hit, the area of the car that took a large percentage of the impact and the rate of deceleration. There might be a technical explaination as to why the airbags didn't deploy.

As for the ABS, its diff to prove that it didn't work, based on just the drivers statement.

Shan2nu
Shan2nu, Ajmat and others have added that Airbags deploy somewhere near 40-50km/h range and the car even if not doing 140km/h was surely well within the range of Airbags being deployed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by iamswift View Post
@tsk13, you have every right to get explanation from Audi. So I suggest you write to concerned person at Audi with detailed narration and ask for explanation. I'm sure you should get it.
If you could post the reply from Audi in this forum, it would be of great help.
I really do not think you can get respite from legal actions. If you want, you should really get all facts before taking up legal course. Otherwise you end up wasting time and money.
For instance, as pointed out, airbags would not work under certain speed limits. How would you prove that the car was traveling above the threshold?
There might be other things too, which might be difficult in proving.
I personally feel that Audi should explain first than going for a legal route, which I always avoid as it's more of a pain in the neck. No offences meant to anyone who take the legal route, it's just my opinion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by funkydevil View Post
My friend, look at the picture of the Audi. Does the right side(drivers side) of the car even look like it hit anything at 140kmph thereby slowing it down. I know you want to help your cousin, but in order for us to do that I suggest you let him view the thread first and then ask him to put out the story of what actually happened here.

Only then would we be able to give him the right kind of advice instead of wasting time speculating as to what actually happened.

More importantly please do tell him to get the ECU checked with the computer and put up the data results here (if possible). That way we can put an end to all theories.
Thanks, the thread has been referred to him. Lets see what he has to say.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sudev View Post
Irrelevant portion - goons and the chase or why the car was fast.
Relevant portion - Crash on braking.

ABS - Does not mean more braking. It only prevents wheels from lock up and give you some steering ability under harsh braking. So if there was dust/loose gravel on the road the braking distance increase drastically as the wheels can only find so much grip before they begin to lock and are prevented by ABS in doing so.

Airbags will deploy only if crash deformation goes beyond a particular point. I do not think any air bag deployment occurs only due to de-acceleration. Assuming speed of 140+ the body seems to have absorbed the impact rather nicely. Mostly airbags deployment is with frontal impacts (and side impacts in higher end models like this one).

But then this is just a guess work on my part. Taking manufacturer to court on weak grounds would need real hard thinking.
Sudev, I never mentioned that ABS means more braking. I added that if ABS would've been operational then the collision at first place could've been avoided. When your wheels aren't locking then you can obviously steer into the clear area than skidding and banging.

The point of dust was supplemented to a point raised by a fellow BHPian where he mentioned that trying a cut at 140km/h is never successful. My cousin had to do this in spur of the moment, not deliberately. I meant to convey that owing to these conditions the sharp cut is sometimes not very clear and hence while speeding you suddenly come across it and brake.

Last edited by tsk13 : 28th December 2009 at 19:29.
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Old 28th December 2009, 19:44   #39
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not sure if anybody pointed it out, ABS will be help to regain the control if the car is skidding in the direction of wheel. if sliding sideways, even if the ABS kicks in and releases the breaks 100s times a second, the car will continue to skid sideways.

airbags have their own multitude of sensors before they can deploy.
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Old 31st December 2009, 16:39   #40
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Guys, don't just look at the minimal frontal damage to conclude the driver wasn't at 140. A driver insltinctly applies brakes on foreseeing the accident (In this case he did) which reduces the speed to double digits. Ethe Euro NCAP crash tests are carried out at 64 Kmph for the same reason.

Here the speedo was at 140 when he last looked at, but he applied brakes before crashing; defenitely he wouldn't be noting the speedo at the crash point.
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Old 31st December 2009, 20:19   #41
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Airbags use a variety of sensors, accelerometers, gyroscopes etc. Its never just a sensor on the grille as commonly believed. When all the sensors relay the data and the computer decides that the car has suffered an impact of sufficient force, the airbags are deployed. In this case, it appears that the two collisions and braking in between probably resulted in two collisions of which neither met the requirements. In any case, you can ask Audi and confirm that this is the case using the data that Kinetik has posted about.

Regarding ABS, there really isn't evidence to show that the ABS failed. Can you get a clarification from the driver as to why he believes the ABS failed?
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