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Old 25th January 2014, 17:53   #61
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Default Re: Harley-Davidson Street 750 for India: Unveiled @ Goa

Something to break the debate going on here




Captain America riding the HD Street in this video. 750 i guess.
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Old 25th January 2014, 18:45   #62
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Default Re: Harley-Davidson Street 750 for India: Unveiled @ Goa

Harley's are equipped with a very elaborate, fully computerised diagnostic modules. People dismissing it as refined Bullets can have a look at the details on my thread here about this - http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/superb...ml#post3353712 (Harley Davidson Superlow XL883L - The Comprehensive Review)

And why the bike costs more is the QUALITY as highlighted before by some enlightened member. This article about the quality of Chrome used on Harley davidson Motorcycles is worth a read - http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/superb...ml#post3353839 (Harley Davidson Superlow XL883L - The Comprehensive Review)

Peace...
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Old 25th January 2014, 19:02   #63
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Default Re: Harley-Davidson Street 750 for India: Unveiled @ Goa

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Originally Posted by dkaile View Post
Harley's are equipped with a very elaborate, fully computerised diagnostic modules. People dismissing it as refined Bullets can have a look at the details on my thread here about this - http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/superb...ml#post3353712 (Harley Davidson Superlow XL883L - The Comprehensive Review)
The Bullet has a more advanced computerized diagnostic module than the Harley. Its called the Bulleteer's brain.

But seriously, the Bullet has hardly any electronics or sensors. It still stays true to its old world heritage, where even the move from CB points was heavily resisted by purists. Then again one might be tempted to ask, if Harley's quality and reliability are all that great to start off with, why the need for such elaborate diagnostics? The fact that nothing should go wrong should effectively make this redundant. (tongue firmly in cheek here)

Quote:
And why the bike costs more is the QUALITY as highlighted before by some enlightened member. This article about the quality of Chrome used on Harley davidson Motorcycles is worth a read - http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/superb...ml#post3353839 (Harley Davidson Superlow XL883L - The Comprehensive Review)

Peace...
Your claim about Bullet's rusting within a year has nothing to do with the quality of chrome. The quality of chrome of RE in fact is one of the best in the industry, be in hard chroming of fork tubes, or tanks, or mudguards, or OE silencers and bend pipes, or headlight rings, or even the battery boxes and air boxes. The depth of chrome is matched only in my experience with the old Yams and the old KB100 mudguards, which are some of the best I have seen.

Is the quality of HD chrome better? Sure. It better be. Its one of their USP's, practically a parallel industry in the US. But to say that RE chrome is bad is wrong.

What rusts is the painted parts, frame, and the vendor provided fittings like nuts and bolts. That I agree. Should not happen, and indicates poor pre paint treatment and galvanizing, as well as the paint quality itself.

Last edited by ebonho : 25th January 2014 at 19:06.
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Old 26th January 2014, 21:06   #64
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Default Re: Harley-Davidson Street 750 for India: Unveiled @ Goa

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Your claim about Bullet's rusting within a year has nothing to do with the quality of chrome. The quality of chrome of RE in fact is one of the best in the industry
Agree with you on this one. My bullet is now 25 months old and being a heavily chromed version, Iam proud to claim that not an inch of the chrome portion has rusted till date and a simple wipe of a soft cloth is enough to put a glint in your eye due to its dazzle

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Originally Posted by ebonho View Post
What rusts is the painted parts, frame, and the vendor provided fittings like nuts and bolts. That I agree. Should not happen, and indicates poor pre paint treatment and galvanizing, as well as the paint quality itself.
Iam forunate on this part as well. My bike hasnt rusted even on any of the painted areas. The major areas of bike susespticble for rusting is under the seat, front fork area, around headlights and corner of fenders etc. But, thankfully i dont see any rusting on my bike anywhere.
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Old 27th January 2014, 09:15   #65
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Default Re: Harley-Davidson Street 750 for India: Unveiled @ Goa

There are bikers and there are posers. Bikers will ride the bike, look for power, ridability, gear shifts, the joy of riding, enjoy the ride. The poser will look at the shine on the tank, the quality of weld marks, the shiny colors, the quality of chrome, will look and see if their own self worth or brand value increases by sitting on the bike, see if it is a bird magnet and so on.. Enough said, to each his own!!! I prefer to ride and enjoy the ride. Cheers
On the thread itself, I am very happy we Indian bikers are getting a wide range of choices in almost all price segments to choose from, we never had it better. Now will someone be brave enough to get a high powered enduro or dirt bike please?
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Old 27th January 2014, 11:50   #66
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Default Re: Harley-Davidson Street 750 for India: Unveiled @ Goa

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Originally Posted by ebonho View Post
On the HD and RE, the HD is better. I have said so already. Is it 3 lac better? Not on this planet, in this lifetime its not.
Noticed the difference between a Nano and an i10? It will pretty much sum it up in this case too. Neither of them are something extraordinary, but one on one, it visible. Why won't you agree? RE is not the direct competitor to HD. Yes, both are tourers / cruisers, but the direct rival would be somewhere in that price bracket, with that level of QC. May be like you say, the Harley story abroad is no different from a RE in India. But in India, the story is different, isn't it?

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Doesn't feel good to you. Not good for you. Feels great to me. Is good for me, and love it to bits.
But why does that love come out lashing on to other bikes which ARE way ahead in terms of quality, aspirational value, ownership & buying experience may be, and much more.
Only because they are not your type of machines?

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And for a 12 year old bike, has aged a lot better than most bikes out there (short of most Yams and some of the early TVS-Suzukis). A bike is a lot what its rider makes of it. There are no really bad tools. Just bad carpenters.
A bike is a lot what the manufacturer makes of it too. And when it costs somewhere around 2 lakhs, it better be towards the perfect side. (If not the best)

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Not different by a whole lot. Just a richer version of the same. Nothing to do with biking or bikes per se.
But there is differentiation. And a clear one. Whatever version it might be.

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Please don't do that. We need you here for opposing perspective. However, just for laughs, why not go on to forums dedicated to Hondas, BMWs, Yamahas, Sports Bikes, Adventure Bikes, and read what they have to say about Harley reliability? Internationally, not just in the US.
1. I know that is not even remotely possible (in the near future), so I am going nowhere.
I am here, in India. I don't bother too much about whats happening on the other side of the globe just to prove a point. What I see here, is what I will point out. Period.

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They did not make the bikes here. They just got them here. Bikes which have already been developed and sod elsewhere. That's a business decision. Not a technical or R&D one. And before you point out to me about why RE could not do it, I am sure you appreciate that RE after the British motorcycle industry collapsed, came to India. A poor developing country, with poor people, and very limited resources, and a growing technical workforce. All advantages there to be leveraged by HD from the 1960s to today (the length of time RE has been in India). What earth shattering thing have HD achieved with all of that in all this time? Could one say with conviction that had RE not remained in Britain, had their industry not collapsed, that they would not today have as many if not more models and variants, and of superior technology, performance, and quality? Hypothetical but relevant would you not agree?
Whatever the history might be my friend, my problem is not with who did what when I wasn't born, point out part to part, bike to bike, how one is better than the other.

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Till then one needs to be very careful in saying one bike is unreliable while the other is not.
But what when the other bike shows signs of being unreliable (subjective) within 2-3 years of ownership, with mechanicals failing much sooner than they should?

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Based on heresay. Without having actually owned or ridden one. It makes you a biker who has made up his mind and will not change it or attempt to see for himself if it can be changed. In other words, a biker with a closed mind.
You know your bike better, and if you leave the Bulleteer inside you aside, you know the real deal too. Again, I don't own one because I choose not to.
Attempt to see what? A friends electric start not working after 5 months? Rust on the tank? Poor paint quality? Vibrations on other bikes, but a thump (or a soul) on a RE?
It is not called a closed mind when you keep off something knowing that it won't work fine, its called being a little more sensible to keep off the so called cult following.

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Would I have bought a Bullet thrice if I agreed with you? Do I come across as a biker who is a juvenile fanboy who does not know anything about his machines besides how to start them and get them moving? No machine is perfect. Credit where credit is due. Brickbats where brickbats are deserved.
If not owning a bike which gives you problems time and again and then getting it fixed and then brag about it makes me a juvenile, then may be I am.
I've owned a total of 4 bikes from 3 different brands and by the time I have shown up at the service centre, I had a fair idea of what was wrong, and I wasn't wrong in pointing it out either. This is the attitude I was talking about, even when I pointed out at the RC390 thread. You own a machine, great, others don't and they might not even want to. But that doesn't give you the privilege to be judgmental. No machine is perfect, true, but some are close to perfection, and RE is miles away from that.

Brickbats where brickbats are deserved, then why don't you do it?

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Our bikes are not perfect, but they are much more than any other bike can give, if at all, and that is why we buy them. In spite of RE.
And what is that exactly? Which other bikes lack?
May be they just don't appeal to you. But they appeal to others in the market, and a majority of it. By huge margins.

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Equally, I suggest you own and live with a Bullet first too before making sweeping generalizations on them. Would make what you say much more credible then. Right now most Bulleteers have probably consigned you to the legion of armchair Bullet bashers. Nothing new for us. We thrive on such.
I would love to. If only it could be as clean for me to own it and ride it daily for 100+ kms.
I am one of those excited biking enthusiasts who were waiting for the Conti GT, & I love it. May be someday I might even buy it, but only after I hear something good about the ownership experience. I have noticed that the quality is a notch above the usual, but only time will prove the point.

Bulleteers have probably consigned you to the legion of armchair Bullet bashers you say, who cares, there are many more on the forum who might be waiting for me to reply, more than may be 2 guys standing up for what they own. Your choice is your choice, it doesn't make any difference to anyone else in the market. People buy what they see, people know what they buy. If you say that the Indian customer is not learned and is being deprived of not getting the RE ownership experience, I won't agree to that. There is nothing exceptional about it. When I ride my uncles Bullet, I love the whole aura about being on the road, thumping away, but I won't claim that others are missing out on something.

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Originally Posted by ebonho View Post
The Bullet has a more advanced computerized diagnostic module than the Harley. Its called the Bulleteer's brain.
Again, why deny if there is something missing in your bike? Agree to it, its a fact.

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The quality of chrome of RE in fact is one of the best in the industry
This I agree. I see rust on the tanks and near the chassis welds, but the chrome always has that shimmer even after years.

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Originally Posted by apachelongbow View Post
On the thread itself, I am very happy we Indian bikers are getting a wide range of choices in almost all price segments to choose from, we never had it better. Now will someone be brave enough to get a high powered enduro or dirt bike please?
I am sure KTM is listening.

Last edited by parrys : 27th January 2014 at 11:58.
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Old 27th January 2014, 12:02   #67
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Default Re: Harley-Davidson Street 750 for India: Unveiled @ Goa

Going from a quality standard of 45 to 50% which the Enfield is doing in India is not such a tough job. But achieving standards and going from 91 to 97-98% is a very tough job and that is what companies like Triumph and Harley have done. That is where the cost overlays come in. Otherwise just to ride even a Hero Honda suffices. To label quality aficionados as posers is a thought process of constraint individuals.
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Old 27th January 2014, 13:30   #68
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Default Re: Harley-Davidson Street 750 for India: Unveiled @ Goa

I think it is pointless to debate on performance / quality / panache vs price.

Harley's and Triumphs are miles ahead in quality and panache aspect.
The road presence is noteworthy and the paint job, chrome job, finish all shouts quality.
I wouldn't keep Royal Enfield in the same league.

Now to address the performance issue. I think much is being made out of something quite meaningless in this genre = peak torque at high RPM.
The bikes of this category seldom see such high RPM. Thus what the manufactures should publish is the BHP vs RPM curve to let us decide which has better "performance" in the lazy riding RPM range. (IMO 1000 to 2000 or 2500 RPM)

The final issue = price. I guess its the price angle that has been the crux behind the last few pages of this thread!

Yes Harleys and Triumphs are more expensive (than what they offer). But then they have workers in the US who get paid (including all benefits) more than the bosses here. Then they have the bosses there. And of course you have the share holders. Cost is high, margins are high. Ergo the price WILL be high. If the same was to be executed by all Indian outfit the price would be considerably cheaper.

But would it be? I am not sure it would. The price is also determined by HOW you want your product to been seen by the customer (or in other words how you wish to position).
I am sure Harley (or for that matter Triumph) does not see RE as a potential threat right now.
Yes even to their 500 cc offering.

Why?
Price! A Harley 500 > RE TBird.
People who are drawn to Harley will be willing to shell out higher price for the same stuff (even if RE was offering something quite similar machine-wise). Because the others cannot offer the complete package like image, accomplishment even though technically RE and Harley offering may be similar.
This is where Branding also comes into picture.
You build a brand, and buyers are willing to buy at higher prices.

Last edited by alpha1 : 27th January 2014 at 13:34.
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Old 27th January 2014, 17:38   #69
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Default Re: Harley-Davidson Street 750 for India: Unveiled @ Goa

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Originally Posted by parrys View Post
Noticed the difference between a Nano and an i10? It will pretty much sum it up in this case too. Neither of them are something extraordinary, but one on one, it visible. Why won't you agree? RE is not the direct competitor to HD. Yes, both are tourers / cruisers, but the direct rival would be somewhere in that price bracket, with that level of QC. May be like you say, the Harley story abroad is no different from a RE in India. But in India, the story is different, isn't it?
There is no other comparable bike to the Harley 500 than the Bullet 500. Machine to machine, the similarities far outnumber the differences. Of course they will be compared regardless of their price points. What are car comparisons doing on a bike thread? There must be a bike specific analogy to get your point across.

Quote:
But why does that love come out lashing on to other bikes which ARE way ahead in terms of quality, aspirational value, ownership & buying experience may be, and much more.
Only because they are not your type of machines?
No one is lashing out. Why are you? Its simple. There is a new launch, and bikers are discussing what it brings to the table versus what price it commands, and are comparing it to other similar offerings existing in the market. Isn't that what we do for all new launches?

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A bike is a lot what the manufacturer makes of it too. And when it costs somewhere around 2 lakhs, it better be towards the perfect side. (If not the best)
More so, when a bike costs 5 lacs, it better not produce 33 horses from a 500 cc liquid cooled V twin motor. That's a worse travesty than the one you point out. After all, ones exposure in your example is 2 lacs, while in mine, the exposure is 2.5 times as much. And in the end, both machines would perform near about the same on a good road in a straight line, whereas the much cheaper bike would take its rider over a lot worse and far further in anything other than a good road and a straight line otherwise. What am I to do with the quality you guys speak about when there is only so (limited) much I can do with the machine? These are of course my own perspectives as a rider. A rider who does not mind taking the bike out for a nice Sunday morning ride of perfectly paved highway, would not necessarily find the same a dterrent, especially if he wanted the brand that came with it.

Different strokes. Am just putting forward mine. There is no absolute good or bad. Just perceptions thereof. I may be ok living with less than perfect quality, if I get a tough as nails long distance bike with a big motor and great low end torque at a price. You may be ok with buying into a fair weather bike with much better fit and finish and quality, with an equally big motor and low end torque, at a much higher asking price, but which would scrape its metal parts at the first sign of bad roads or sharp bends, not mentioning big dollar suspension upgrades to even comfortably go over the bigger urban speedbreakers. Different strokes.

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But there is differentiation. And a clear one. Whatever version it might be.
There is an important difference. The Harley scene is still in its infancy in India. So much so that there is really not that much the Harley crowd has actually done in terms of riding and doing it on the road. The Bullet crowd has done it all in India. For decades now. That is a significant gap in street cred to first ford before we can talk on equal terms. The depth of one's pocket does not make a rider. It just buys you a nicer bike. Its what you do with it that counts. I am sure you would appreciate that. And speaking machine to machine, as said in an earlier post of mine, it is way too early to be waxing elquent about Harley quality and reliability, even in India. At least we do not have Bullet threads of bikes parked outside dealerships with slogans and placards and bullock carts and cargo tempos because someone charges a 10 grand for a puncture.

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1. I know that is not even remotely possible (in the near future), so I am going nowhere.
I am here, in India. I don't bother too much about whats happening on the other side of the globe just to prove a point. What I see here, is what I will point out. Period.
Then it is not an apple to apple comparison. You paint one bike as bad based on its reputation (based on hearsay) over 6+ decades in the country. The other bie you eugolise based on 2 years in the same country, not wanting to look at its own reputation over equivalent 6+ decades in its parent country and elsewhere. That's cherry picking if I ever saw it.

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Whatever the history might be my friend, my problem is not with who did what when I wasn't born, point out part to part, bike to bike, how one is better than the other.
Considering both these bikes and marques have been around for a lot longer than us, and their brands and legends are built over the same length of time, the track record and reputation amongst bikers is a very relevant part of this discussion. Bike to bike, is not jst a sum of its parts, but what it can do. The Harley 500 still has to prove what it can do, the Bullet 500 has already done it. Many times over. The Harley 500 has only yet proven that it would cost 2.5 times the cost one can buy a Bullet 500 for. For the rest, the jury is still out there and waiting. Jury that is looking at them bike to bike, on the road. Not brand to brand, or patch to patch, or chrome to chrome, or weld marks or paint finish or a gazillion diagnostic codes.

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But what when the other bike shows signs of being unreliable (subjective) within 2-3 years of ownership, with mechanicals failing much sooner than they should?
Quality issues. There are no stories of brand new Harleys failing and coming to the workshop? Want to bet?

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You know your bike better, and if you leave the Bulleteer inside you aside, you know the real deal too. Again, I don't own one because I choose not to.
Yet that does not stop you from making sweeping statements about it or being judgmental about it. Why is that?

Quote:
Attempt to see what? A friends electric start not working after 5 months? Rust on the tank? Poor paint quality? Vibrations on other bikes, but a thump (or a soul) on a RE?
It is not called a closed mind when you keep off something knowing that it won't work fine, its called being a little more sensible to keep off the so called cult following.
Its called going on hearsay and overreacting. Based on a limited sample size. Versus thousands (over 200 thousand each year at last count incidentally) of new owners every year. You need to take the complaints in the correct perspective spread out over the entire sample size. Not cherry pick because it supports your pre-conceived notion of what the bike is.

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If not owning a bike which gives you problems time and again and then getting it fixed and then brag about it makes me a juvenile, then may be I am.
I was not calling you juvenile. I was asking you whether you thought I was.

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I've owned a total of 4 bikes from 3 different brands and by the time I have shown up at the service centre, I had a fair idea of what was wrong, and I wasn't wrong in pointing it out either. This is the attitude I was talking about, even when I pointed out at the RC390 thread. You own a machine, great, others don't and they might not even want to. But that doesn't give you the privilege to be judgmental. No machine is perfect, true, but some are close to perfection, and RE is miles away from that.
Yet its ok for you to be judgmental about a bike you have never owned and do not even plan to own, and make sweeping statements based on hearsay and starkly limited data sets.

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Brickbats where brickbats are deserved, then why don't you do it?
I have and will continue to do so. The fact that it has missed your notice cannot be attributed to an omission on my part thereof. I have always been absolutely fair and unbiased in the strengths and weaknesses of all my bikes and cars to date. And I call it as I see it. If I see an overpriced machine that underdelivers, I call it out as such. Too bad you see it as being judgmental.

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And what is that exactly? Which other bikes lack?
May be they just don't appeal to you. But they appeal to others in the market, and a majority of it. By huge margins.
There is a lot, and I will not be drawn into that wider loop here on this topic. Like you tried with the R15 and Duke. I aint biting. Lets keep it to the baby Harley and the competition please.

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I would love to. If only it could be as clean for me to own it and ride it daily for 100+ kms.
I am one of those excited biking enthusiasts who were waiting for the Conti GT, & I love it. May be someday I might even buy it, but only after I hear something good about the ownership experience. I have noticed that the quality is a notch above the usual, but only time will prove the point.
You should talk sweepingly and authoritatively about Bullets after you have. Neither we (Bulleteers) or RE are holding our collective breath till then. Any company, including RE, makes the best machine they can. Its up to people to like it, want it, and buy it. If not you, there are 200,000 others who will and are. As I said, RE is not holding its breath for the machine to match up to your standards. But it would help your credibility if you pass judgement on one after attempting to live with one and know what it really is. Versus what you have read on the net, heard from a few friends, and gleaned from invitation rides.

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Bulleteers have probably consigned you to the legion of armchair Bullet bashers you say, who cares, there are many more on the forum who might be waiting for me to reply, more than may be 2 guys standing up for what they own. Your choice is your choice, it doesn't make any difference to anyone else in the market. People buy what they see, people know what they buy. If you say that the Indian customer is not learned and is being deprived of not getting the RE ownership experience, I won't agree to that. There is nothing exceptional about it. When I ride my uncles Bullet, I love the whole aura about being on the road, thumping away, but I won't claim that others are missing out on something.
You are putting words into my mouth man. When did I say any of this? We all have our own views and choices and ways of measuring things, and we speak from such positions. Have you seen me question Harley's quality or brand or following or image or the sound or the way it rides? I know these are Harley's strong points. But I will question, as I am doing, a bike that costs 5 lacs, and produces 4 bhp more than one that costs 2 lacs, in the same market, with the same displacement, and with the advantage of liquid cooling and an extra cylinder no less. Any biker worth his salt would, and I am surprised that you are not. It makes me wonder why.

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Again, why deny if there is something missing in your bike? Agree to it, its a fact.
Do you understand what a tongue in cheek statement is? Please lighten up bro. This is a biker debate. Not a war.
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Old 27th January 2014, 17:45   #70
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Default Re: Harley-Davidson Street 750 for India: Unveiled @ Goa

Note from Mod : Guys, Request you to please stop this 1-1 debate on the Harley 500 vs. RE 500 as its completely diluting the purpose of this thread which is meant for HD Street 750

If it continues then we'll be forced to clean up this thread.

Thanks for your cooperation
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Old 27th January 2014, 17:47   #71
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Default Re: Harley-Davidson Street 750 for India: Unveiled @ Goa

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Originally Posted by ebonho View Post
There is no other comparable bike to the Harley 500 than the Bullet 500. Machine to machine, the similarities far outnumber the differences. Of course they will be compared regardless of their price points. What are car comparisons doing on a bike thread? There must be a bike specific analogy to get your point across.

Do you understand what a tongue in cheek statement is? Please lighten up bro. This is a biker debate. Not a war.
Too all that you've said; I would reply back in just one line: Make your opinion / comment sound ownership based, not ownership biased.

Last edited by Technocrat : 27th January 2014 at 20:17. Reason: Please avoid quoting a large post as it causes inconvenience to our mobile readers. Thanks
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Old 27th January 2014, 17:52   #72
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Default Re: Harley-Davidson Street 750 for India: Unveiled @ Goa

Parrys, as the younger of us two, and based on the mod's request, you should have the last word on this discussion. Cheers.
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Old 27th January 2014, 18:21   #73
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Default Re: Harley-Davidson Street 750 for India: Unveiled @ Goa

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Originally Posted by ebonho View Post
Parrys, as the younger of us two, and based on the mod's request, you should have the last word on this discussion. Cheers.
Wow Doc, that was one good debate which I did miss out. Fully agree with your thoughts. Yes the HD carry more quality, better paint, better finish. But at that price is it really worth it? Some people have the pockets and they will buy them. But you cannot take away the addictive Low End Torque that a HD comes with.

RE might be its poorer cousin in terms of its appearance, paint job & finish. But what the hell man, Would need a bike that I can ride to all terrains and not get stuck to your friendly CCD Outlet which is 80 kms down the road.
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Old 27th January 2014, 18:58   #74
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Default Re: Harley-Davidson Street 750 for India: Unveiled @ Goa

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Originally Posted by mobike008 View Post
Note from Mod : Guys, Request you to please stop this 1-1 debate on the Harley 500 vs. RE 500 as its completely diluting the purpose of this thread which is meant for HD Street 750

If it continues then we'll be forced to clean up this thread.
Hallelujah!!

Here's a nice Ice Racing video of the Street 750

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Old 27th January 2014, 19:02   #75
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Default Re: Harley-Davidson Street 750 for India: Unveiled @ Goa

Quote:
Originally Posted by dkaile View Post
Here's a nice Ice Racing video of the Street 750
About my question to you earlier in the thread bro. How does the 750 sound? Did you/parrys get to ride it?
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