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Old 20th July 2015, 15:23   #196
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Default re: Honda to assemble CBR 650 in India!

Honda's pricing with the CBR650 is premium at least in the US & will definitely be so in India as well. Yes, its a 4 cylinder engine & yes it comes with the big H badge but many folks, experts & buyers alike, state that its difficult to justify the premium when you get similar offerings from others at a lower price.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nithesh_M View Post
Replicas and knockoffs will always undercut all new products. The Benellis are sourcing discarded Yamaha engine and Aprilia frame so they have nothing to do with the R&D costs. Their only constraint is manufacturing and that in a country like China where skilled laborers work for peanuts is like a money minting heaven regardless of what you want to manufacture.
Using the term replicas and / or knockoffs for Benellis is a little extreme. What Benelli has done is show that there is a segment of the market that is willing to accept bikes that have engines that are a decade old even if it from the excellent Yamaha R6. Doing more with less. Nothing has stopped Honda & the others from doing the same more often (admittedly if you dig around there are enough examples of bikes with the same engines being flogged for years). Given that Honda has decades of engines & a much bigger engineering, & more importantly, product planning division, they should have latched onto this earlier.

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Originally Posted by Nithesh_M View Post
There is also a CBR 250R replica sold in Chennai that is imported from China and that undercuts Indian Made CBR by a few thousands.
This is actually quite interesting, can you share some details around the same? I havent heard about it from the good biking folks in Madras, do you know if they have a dedicated showroom(s) in the city? Will definitely be worth a visit. At that price point, I cant see many people paying that much for a cheap import replica so it will be fascinating to dig around & try to understand their business model.

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Originally Posted by Nithesh_M View Post
The N300 comes in at 1.56 lakhs
The N650 comes in at 2.18 lakhs.
The Street triple comes in at 3.07 lakhs
The Z800 comes in at 3.55 lakhs
And then there is the TNT600I which comes in at 2.83 lakhs from China.
Are these the prices at which they are imported?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nithesh_M View Post
This is why manufacturers charge what we call a "premium". The R&D has to be functional to keep rolling out new products. Not everyone can sell the same product for 10 years today especially when an all new product is rolling out every 3-4 years replacing the older models.

Only way to keep premium low is to give rise to multiple bikes using the same platform like the CBR 400 and 500 F/R/X and KTM Duke and RC series.
The "premium" you have mentioned is not only related to R&D. Like Loki mentioned, it is a function of pricing strategy & positioning. Yes R&D is a big overhead but smarter product mapping & greater platform sharing is the way to go except for your flagship models. If you know your product will do well, you will keep lower margins but with higher volumes you will recover your development, testing, marketing & distribution costs faster. You dont have to "premium" price a new product out of contention like the CBR650.


For successful product mapping, look no further than Yamaha's excellent MT09 & MT07 that have taken the market by storm at very attractive prices. Yes they are well engineered but still have some issues but people are willing to spend a little more to 'fix' them and Yamaha just cant make them quickly enough. A perfect example of a new product that has hit the sweet spot in the current market.


For successful platform sharing, one recent example is Suzuki's new GSX S750 has an engine that is derived from the 2005 GSX-R750 and is definitely something that has many people interested. I dont see enthusiasts out with pitchforks clamoring for Suzuki heads to roll because they used a 10 year old engine. I love what Honda has done with their three 500s as well and think they would work in India (if priced well).


The biking market globally is not the same as it was pre 2008 recession, with the current condition that economies are in, unemployment being what it is and more people thinking really hard about new bike purchases. Its becoming tougher to convince people to part with their hard earned money these days on big ticket items like bikes. Honda spending so much money on developing a bike to be sold globally and then pricing it at a point where people are not going to buy it (not just in India but in some other countries as well) just doesnt make any business sense. It isnt a halo bike. They have a litre class bike for that.
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Old 20th July 2015, 16:16   #197
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Default re: Honda to assemble CBR 650 in India!

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Originally Posted by Sojogator View Post
How does an inline 4 (not a 10 year old one at that) cost same as a twin ? Anything around 7 to 8 would be great pricing in my opinion. So I expect Honda to price it a shade over 8 ex showroom.
Contrary to popular perception the number of cylinders has little to do with the cost. Infact the development cost of the motorcycle plays a major role in the cost. The material cost difference between an inline 4 and an inline twin is not substantial there are a lot of other things that will add to the cost of a motorcycle : suspension, tyres. The actual cost of developing an all new parallel twin or an inline four with very similar budget suspension is more or less the same. The Benelli with trellis frame and USD suspension will cost more in material cost, be it made in China or anywhere else. and quite a lot of sourcing for companies like Honda or the other Japs is from countries like China and India. Only high end motorcycles will have components made in Japan or Europe.

A v-twin on the other hand will be substantially more expensive to develop and manufacture as you need two banks of valve gear cams and heads.

Honda can afford to price the CBR 650f at around 8 lacs ex showroom because of their perceived brand name and they will milk it for all it is worth. But in IMHO will not offer anything more in terms of pure excitment to ride than a ninja 650.
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Old 20th July 2015, 17:32   #198
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Default re: Honda to assemble CBR 650 in India!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nithesh_M View Post


The N300 comes in at 1.56 lakhs
The N650 comes in at 2.18 lakhs.
The Street triple comes in at 3.07 lakhs
The Z800 comes in at 3.55 lakhs
And then there is the TNT600I which comes in at 2.83 lakhs from China.
I think these are assessed value of imports. I'm not too sure, but it is entirely possible that companies might undervalue their imports to avoid paying high customs duties.There was a point on this by tbhp member Turbanator. Please check post #14 in the below thread.

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/indian...-ex-delhi.html (2015 Mercedes-Benz C-Class launched at Rs 40.9 lakh Ex-Delhi)



In any case, my point is - when Honda SELLS (not manufactures) the CBR 650 at almost the same price in Thailand as the N650 (290k baht vs. 300k baht) why shouldn't we expect the same? I know the answer. Just hoping Honda proves me (and a lot others) wrong.
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Old 20th July 2015, 17:56   #199
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Default re: Honda to assemble CBR 650 in India!

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Originally Posted by neil.jericho View Post
Using the term replicas and / or knockoffs for Benellis is a little extreme. Nothing has stopped Honda & the others from doing the same more often (admittedly if you dig around there are enough examples of bikes with the same engines being flogged for years).
Its illegal to replicate somebody else's product in several international markets. In China though the local laws are pro replica manufacturers and don't pay heed to protests by actual manufacturers. The history is pretty well documented about this.
If a manufacturer uses their own engines and frames for years, it is understandable. But playing Lego with others products and branding it as your own makes you a replica manufacturer.

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Originally Posted by neil.jericho View Post
This is actually quite interesting, can you share some details around the same?
Sure. Its called Eider motors, the bike I referred to is called Eider ZF-Kymco.
http://www.motorbeam.com/2015/04/bik...wcases-dealer/

Quote:
Originally Posted by neil.jericho View Post
Are these the prices at which they are imported?
Yes. The shipping bills from country of discharge.

Quote:
Originally Posted by neil.jericho View Post
For successful product mapping, look no further than Yamaha's excellent MT09 & MT07 that have taken the market by storm at very attractive prices. Yes they are well engineered but still have some issues but people are willing to spend a little more to 'fix' them and Yamaha just cant make them quickly enough..
That "fix" though is well over a $1000 and puts it in the same ballpark as the naked CB650F. I'm assuming you are referring to the suspension pogo issues plaguing both bikes with riders weighing over 180lbs with gear? Both the bikes are praised for the torquey engines, its the frame and suspension bits where they were let down as is the consensus with the MT/FZ ownership forums.
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Originally Posted by neil.jericho View Post
For successful platform sharing, one recent example is Suzuki's new GSX S750 has an engine that is derived from the 2005 GSX-R750 and is definitely something that has many people interested. I dont see enthusiasts out with pitchforks clamoring for Suzuki heads to roll because they used a 10 year old engine.
I hope you realize that Suzuki is in a financial mess over the last 5 years in the US and European markets in both the car and bike divisions. They quit the US car sales 3 years ago and have had to re launch old motorcycles in new clothes with a hefty discount to keep their ship afloat. Its viewed as a desperate move to prolong the company's future till a point where their GP return will help them develop an all new litre bike which will act as a new Halo product. There's a good $2-3k discount on the Suzukis wrt competition and with the newer litre bikes hovering in the mid $20s, that difference goes all the way up to $11k. Discounts come only on two occasions, first being a new brand entry into the diverse market and the second being a financial mess and need to keep inventory low and show healthy sales figures to investors. Their sales figures are nowhere close to that of the other 3 Japanese manufacturers.

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Originally Posted by loki View Post
I think these are assessed value of imports. I'm not too sure, but it is entirely possible that companies might undervalue their imports to avoid paying high customs duties.There was a point on this by tbhp member Turbanator. Please check post #14 in the below thread.

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/indian...-ex-delhi.html (2015 Mercedes-Benz C-Class launched at Rs 40.9 lakh Ex-Delhi)



In any case, my point is - when Honda SELLS (not manufactures) the CBR 650 at almost the same price in Thailand as the N650 (290k baht vs. 300k baht) why shouldn't we expect the same? I know the answer. Just hoping Honda proves me (and a lot others) wrong.
Yes. I too suspect Kawasaki undervaluing the N650 while being shipped from Thailand to evade taxes. Been discussing about this with a fellow Tbhp member a while ago and we came to a conclusion that it is either that or Bajaj has some really good contacts at the customs to see it through.

As for the point, well looking at the above numbers its easy to tell why isn't it? Import at 2.18 lakhs, sell for 5.4 lakhs. They're still charging a premium either way. Maybe one weekend i will sit and add the individual component prices Honda imports per bike. We can get a rough idea what the price difference is between the two. The second point being this is Honda's first assembled product for which they have had to create a seperate assembly line in the factory, add standalone dealership bays, train engineers and mechanics for one product alone unlike say Kawasaki's already established continous assembly line where bikes from 250-800 are put together non stop.
Ofcourse as we learn in engineering, Unit production is going to be expensive than Batch or Continous production.

Last edited by Nithesh_M : 20th July 2015 at 18:11.
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Old 20th July 2015, 21:14   #200
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Default re: Honda to assemble CBR 650 in India!

The Clone concept is nothing new in motorcycles. Several companies began operations cloning or copying popular products of the time. Classic example is Yamaha. They cloned a DKW model (not sure on name), DKW later merged with Audi. This model was so popular that even Royal Enfield, Harley and even BSA made a clone at some point in history.

So argument than Benellis being only clones doesn't hold much water. How they develop and better the products needs to be seen. And of course you have to expect the company investing in R&D to charge a premium.

Last edited by mail4ajo : 20th July 2015 at 21:16.
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Old 21st July 2015, 12:15   #201
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nithesh_M View Post
Its illegal to replicate somebody else's product in several international markets. In China though the local laws are pro replica manufacturers and don't pay heed to protests by actual manufacturers.
Probably a discussion for another time & another thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nithesh_M View Post
Sure. Its called Eider motors, the bike I referred to is called Eider ZF-Kymco.
http://www.motorbeam.com/2015/04/bik...wcases-dealer/
Thanks for sharing, you learn something new everyday. With prices that arent rock bottom enough to overlook their origins, I wonder how many bikes they actually will sell per dealer. Rs 50K for a scooter & 95K for a 150 cc motorcycle are roughly what you would pay for a better engineered motorcycle its established competitors.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nithesh_M View Post
That "fix" though is well over a $1000 and puts it in the same ballpark as the naked CB650F. I'm assuming you are referring to the suspension pogo issues plaguing both bikes with riders weighing over 180lbs with gear? Both the bikes are praised for the torquey engines, its the frame and suspension bits where they were let down as is the consensus with the MT/FZ ownership forums.
Ive read about fixes that are more in the $ 1500 to 3000 range to address some of the suspension issues & other small niggles. Many people seem to be opting for the cheaper Yamahas after accounting for the money (and time) to address these instead of buying a more refined / finished / niggle free / pick your word for it Triumph Street Triple that will cost the same or more. Right bike, right price at what most wouldve said was not the best time to launch two new bikes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nithesh_M View Post
They quit the US car sales 3 years ago and have had to re launch old motorcycles in new clothes with a hefty discount to keep their ship afloat. Its viewed as a desperate move to prolong the company's future till a point where their GP return will help them develop an all new litre bike which will act as a new Halo product. There's a good $2-3k discount on the Suzukis wrt competition and with the newer litre bikes hovering in the mid $20s, that difference goes all the way up to $11k.
Circumstances might have forced Suzuki's hand in this case but that doesnt mean that their bikes arent worthy competitors in today's market. Suzuki's other new naked bike - the GSX S1000 is based on the K5 engine. I happened to be watching the PowerDrift review of the bike today evening & they said its a better bike than the Kawasaki Z1000. Older proving to be better in this case for the reviewer. The Suzuki GSX S1000 ABS is $ 10,499 & the Z1000 ABS is $ 11,999 and the Suzuki is lower priced in India as well. In UK, the GSX S1000 is 8,999, the Z1000 is 9,499, Speed Triple is 9,799, CBR1000R is 9,999 and the S1000R is 10,200 (all in pounds and taken from http://www.motorcyclenews.com/news/f...00-the-rivals/).


If you were to run a volume business, think about which strategy makes the least sense
1. Reuse some existing content -> Better offering & Lower price than competitors (eg Suzuki GSX S1000)
2. Build new content -> Aggressive on price & shake up the market (eg Yamaha twins) & rake in the moolah
3. Build new content -> Rest on your badge name, charge a premium & be happy with piddling sales (Honda CBR 650)


Point 3 works incredibly well if you are run Ferrari and exclusivity sells. Not when you want to push a mass market mid sized bike globally.


Also, new litre class bikes arent in the mid $20s - the 2015 R1 is listed at $ 16,490, CBR1000RR at $ 13,999, Kawasaki ZX10R at $ 14,299 and the Suzuki GSX R1000 at $ 13,899. If I add the non Japanese options, the BMW S1000RR is $ 13,950 and the Aprilia RSV4R APRC ABS is $ 15,499 (all prices are MSRP taken from manufacturer websites in US). Of course, dealer fees, documentation etc add up the OTD number and applies to all bikes but the difference is not $ 11,000.
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Old 21st July 2015, 19:42   #202
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Default re: Honda to assemble CBR 650 in India!

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Originally Posted by neil.jericho View Post

Also, new litre class bikes arent in the mid $20s - the 2015 R1 is listed at $ 16,490, CBR1000RR at $ 13,999, Kawasaki ZX10R at $ 14,299 and the Suzuki GSX R1000 at $ 13,899. If I add the non Japanese options, the BMW S1000RR is $ 13,950 and the Aprilia RSV4R APRC ABS is $ 15,499 (all prices are MSRP taken from manufacturer websites in US). Of course, dealer fees, documentation etc add up the OTD number and applies to all bikes but the difference is not $ 11,000.
So you're telling me the H2 and the Panigale 1299 S at $25k are sitting there because Ducati and Kawasaki are relying on "brand value"? I mean if i was to use the logic being applied on this thread by disregarding the life cycle of the product and the timeline of development, its only obvious that somebody would ask why the 2 mass produced SBKs cost 2 times the price of other bikes in the SBK segment?
Or why the new R1 costs $3k more than the outgoing model and the R1M about $8k more?
I mean bikes should all be priced with regard to their cubic capacity if we're going by this logic?
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Old 21st July 2015, 22:09   #203
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So you're telling me the H2 and the Panigale 1299 S at $25k are sitting there because Ducati and Kawasaki are relying on "brand value"? I mean if i was to use the logic being applied on this thread by disregarding the life cycle of the product and the timeline of development, its only obvious that somebody would ask why the 2 mass produced SBKs cost 2 times the price of other bikes in the SBK segment?
Or why the new R1 costs $3k more than the outgoing model and the R1M about $8k more?
I mean bikes should all be priced with regard to their cubic capacity if we're going by this logic?
The H2 is a premium 1000cc offering with exceptional components that is a clear a step above the regular litre class bikes (the ones I listed) and its priced at a probably reasonable $ 25K. It doesnt exist to compete with the ~$ 15K litre class bikes. The Panigale S isnt a real litre class bike is it (though it gets clubbed with other 1000cc bikes in some tests)?


Once again nobody is discounting the time, effort & money it takes to develop an all new product. Nobody is saying it has to be priced the same as the old product either. The question is with a new product, does the "perceived value" over its older self and its competitors result in sales & profits. Overpricing your products & losing out on sales & profits isnt smart business.


Coming back to the Yamaha example, they have done a great job with new products at right prices. Surely they had R&D too. Surely they had marketing costs too. But they havent priced themselves out of contention. Poor product positioning cannot be excused.
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Old 22nd July 2015, 02:13   #204
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Latest Update:
Pre-Bookings to open from tomorrow. Booking amount is 50K.
No official price yet. They are taking the bookings with an expected price of 8 Lakhs ex-showroom. He did say that the ex-showroom will be below 8 lakhs though.

August 4th launch is pretty much confirmed by everybody.

Deliveries will start in August only, on a first come first serve basis.


Here is my take on this bike from a prospective buyer point of view:
I have been following this bike since last 1 year and I am glad for that because since it felt approachable, is the reason I started saving rather than only dreaming.
There is hardly any, even half decent review or video that comes up in the first 10 pages of google/youtube search that I have not watched/read.

Let me get this out first, Ninja 650 to me is the best VFM big bike in the country. This is what I personally think.

Now coming to CBR650F being an inline4. As with most of us I also love Inline4s. Earlier it was mostly because of their intoxicating exhaust note but after test riding a couple of bikes, honestly they felt special to me. Their is something about a smooth inline4 engine even with its stock exhaust note that felt special to ride. Will not go into technical details, because in the end you have to like what you buy and it need not be the best. What matters is you like it.

This bike feels perfect for my kind of use. Mostly street riding with occasional highway runs. Wanted something attractive and slightly sporty with wind protection. I am married so pillion comfort was also a factor. Its decently powerful and after a couple of years of learning curve you can always add some aftermarket stuff to get additional 10-15 horses.

Now the pricing, well what options I have? The only bikes are Daytona and Z800. I test rode both and loved both, but honestly I loved everything that I rode in this segment. Daytona is aggressive and although I might be able to stretch for it, it would be a very uncomfortable stretch. Never wanted a naked, so Z800 is out for me.

I have waited 8 years for this day to come and have saved for the last 2 years for the down payment. 50-60K is not a deal breaker for me in the grand scheme of things. That does not mean that I don't feel this bike is overpriced. It is overpriced but then looking at what I have, I still feel it makes the most sense to me. It still is not perfect, but then no bike is and there are few things I would have loved on it, but this is the closest that comes to what I want, in my budget.

I just hope I like it when I test ride it.

Regards
Rachit

Last edited by Rachit.K.Dogra : 22nd July 2015 at 02:14.
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Old 22nd July 2015, 11:39   #205
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Default re: Honda to assemble CBR 650 in India!

All the best Rachit. It promises to be a really amazing machine. Should be taking over the mantle of the most VFM bike from the N650 if Honda do a Kawasaki.

But they won't, because Honda is not Kawasaki. So it will be a great machine, but with a silly price. And competition (in the near future) will not make them budge.

Look at the CBR250 as a prime example.
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Old 22nd July 2015, 12:25   #206
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Should be taking over the mantle of the most VFM bike from the N650 if Honda do a Kawasaki.
Somehow felt let down with the front suspension being the conventional ones.
A 650 CC Inline 4 capable of delivering close to 100 BHP (with all mods) deserves better suspension. (travel of 4.1 Inches???)

Hopefully there will be no more such surprises from the product
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Old 22nd July 2015, 12:34   #207
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Somehow felt let down with the front suspension being the conventional ones.
A 650 CC Inline 4 capable of delivering close to 100 BHP (with all mods) deserves better suspension. (travel of 4.1 Inches???)

Hopefully there will be no more such surprises from the product
Yeah I agree. No ABS as well? Slipper clutch? Or like the Daytona, will they have a plain vanilla version, and a R version with all the goodies?
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Old 22nd July 2015, 12:43   #208
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Yeah I agree. No ABS as well? Slipper clutch? Or like the Daytona, will they have a plain vanilla version, and a R version with all the goodies?
Doc,

Am assuming that they might launch souped model based on the market's inputs and feedbacks from existing owners. They should at least launch in 2 versions with all the goodies and one low end model catering to aam junta like me who prefer not to let electronics dictate my ride.

Yes Slipper Clutch is a good thing to have.

But not stuff like quick shifter or other things which are rarely used in our riding conditions unless you are a track junkie.
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Old 22nd July 2015, 12:49   #209
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Somehow felt let down with the front suspension being the conventional ones.
A 650 CC Inline 4 capable of delivering close to 100 BHP (with all mods) deserves better suspension. (travel of 4.1 Inches???)
Any such fancy bits will further shoot the price up. This is supposed to be a cheap (relative term) beginner's I4.
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Old 22nd July 2015, 12:52   #210
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Any such fancy bits will further shoot the price up. This is supposed to be a cheap (relative term) beginner's I4.
But that does not mean that you put a potent engine in a poor handling frame.
The bike will have its limitations in high speed corners.

800K is not actually cheap.

When you can get a KTM Duke 390 with USD Fork and ABS...let me stop here mate.
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