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Old 25th November 2014, 20:24   #196
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Default re: Triumph India: Sold Bikes in India with fake performance figures!

There's no denying that if the numbers are indeed as detuned as they seem to be, then I would be one of those owners who would want to sue Triumph and there is no denying the anguish we would feel.
But I would still wait for an official confirmation simply because the bikes still feel as fast as they are supposed to be. For example, a friend has a Ninja 650 with whom I rode for over 350 kms over the weekend. Now, the Ninja is rated at 72bhp and hence shouldn't be much different from the supposed Street Triple's new 79bhp. But the Striple was way way faster. Full throttle blasts on the Ninja can be kept up with part throttle input at a high gear on the Striple. Off the block the Striple simply disappears. It sure didn't feel like a 7bhp/10% difference.
My riding group includes a Daytona R and Speed Triple as well and neither have reported anything less than expectations from seat-of-pants feel.

Maybe the ARAI numbers are at the wheel, maybe the Triumph management messed up and gave wrong figures to ARAI, maybe they are running the same bike on different tunes based on time of delivery. I can't guess - but the longer Triumph stays silent, the longer this is going to hurt them and their sales. And the current owners confidence in the brand will simply vanish.
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Old 25th November 2014, 20:41   #197
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Default re: Triumph India: Sold Bikes in India with fake performance figures!

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Maybe the ARAI numbers are at the wheel, maybe the Triumph management messed up and gave wrong figures to ARAI, maybe they are running the same bike on different tunes based on time of delivery. I can't guess - but the longer Triumph stays silent, the longer this is going to hurt them and their sales. And the current owners confidence in the brand will simply vanish.

Good to know the ST3 feels much quicker than the supposed 79PS vs the N650's 72PS ; but what month/year was that from ?

Second, I don't think ARAI or Triumph would commit such a blunder, as to furnish the wrong power figure. There is some allowed variation in the power and RPM at which it's produced, but no more than ±5%.

Magazine tests of the 2013-14 Daytona range from 112-115bhp at the wheel. The more realistic/pessimistic dyno like Kerker's would probably net around 95-100bhp at the wheel. By that token, a Street Triple should be low 90s in the rear wheel power figures.
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Old 25th November 2014, 21:06   #198
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Default re: Triumph India: Sold Bikes in India with fake performance figures!

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Second, I don't think ARAI or Triumph would commit such a blunder, as to furnish the wrong power figure.

The more realistic/pessimistic dyno like Kerker's would probably net around 95-100bhp at the wheel. By that token, a Street Triple should be low 90s in the rear wheel power figures.
Hasn't Triumph already blundered big time by printing different numbers in their price sheets, marketing material, websites etc at different points in time?
If the Striple was detuned by ~10ps to ~95ps then 79 at the wheel is entirely possible.
For example, the 118bhp Honda City dynos at 79whp on RRPs Hub dyno!

Edit: The Striple was Mar 2014 one and the N650 was a 2013 model.

Last edited by niranjanrvce : 25th November 2014 at 21:14.
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Old 25th November 2014, 21:24   #199
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Default re: Triumph India: Sold Bikes in India with fake performance figures!

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Hasn't Triumph already blundered big time by printing different numbers in their price sheets, marketing material, websites etc at different points in time?
If the Striple was detuned by ~10ps to ~95ps then 79 at the wheel is entirely possible.
For example, the 118bhp Honda City dynos at 79whp on RRPs Hub dyno!
That's a very different kind of blunder ; you do that with government certifying agencies and you'll face legal and monetary troubles for misrepresentation. Of course, consumers can also sue for misrepresenting power figures and delivering far less, but in India , you know how that will drag out.

You're taking the crank-vs-wheel hp of the Daytona and extrapolating to assumed/estimated wheel-vs-wheel figure of the Street.

We don't know for sure, whether the revised horsepower figures are rear-wheel figures or actually detuned power figures at the crank.

A standard Daytona 675 makes 128PS/126hp at the crank or around 112-115 at the wheel. The India website's 118PS (116hp) is right there in that estimated wheel hp range, if somewhat optimistic/upper end.

Even the Bonneville's earlier 68PS crank figure and revised 61PS on the site, falls in the expected rear-wheel hp figure range.

There's no reason to detune the ST3 so much when the engine is largely similar to the Daytona's , it will differ in terms of camshaft specs and valves, and lacks the EXUP valve, but in terms of emission regulations, should be in the same ballpark as the Daytona. A standard Street Triple's 106PS/104hp at the crank would be around 92-93hp at the wheel. The India website's 79PS is lower than even that. That is a disaster and the pain point Street Triple owners and potential owners are anxious about. Now if this is a typo, and they actually meant 97PS (at the wheel) instead of 79, then we'll all have a jolly laugh afterwards. But for now, someone from Triumph or ARAI needs to clear the air.

From a potential customer's perspective, a drop from 128PS to 118PS may not be too much of a loss, and it's well above the 100hp mental benchmark, and will still do 240km/h true. But I was keen on buying the ST3 before I booked the Daytona, and had this fiasco been occurring then, I'd probably take my money to team green and bet on the Z800.

Last edited by Ricci : 25th November 2014 at 21:31.
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Old 25th November 2014, 22:00   #200
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Default re: Triumph India: Sold Bikes in India with fake performance figures!

I doubt there is any manufacturer that will print actual rear wheel horsepower and if they do , they will be damned if they don't mention it explicitly . By default , it is assumed if not mentioned , then the figure is crank figure .


Btw not sure if mentioned before but all 3 bonnie's have taken the same hit and not just the standard , thought I will put it here because I myself assumed only the standard bonnie taken a hit .

Last edited by basuroy : 25th November 2014 at 22:09.
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Old 26th November 2014, 10:32   #201
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Default re: Triumph India: Sold Bikes in India with fake performance figures!

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Originally Posted by niranjanrvce View Post
But the Striple was way way faster. Full throttle blasts on the Ninja can be kept up with part throttle input at a high gear on the Striple. Off the block the Striple simply disappears.
Naughty boy! (we need a "finger wagging" smiley here - but for now this will do from a kindred biker spirit )

On topic, I do agree. Seat of the pants is the next best thing to a dyno for us. And on the road, riders and road conditions being equal, is often the most stark demonstration of what a bike really is - versus all the numbers in the world.

Last edited by ebonho : 26th November 2014 at 10:43.
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Old 26th November 2014, 18:27   #202
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Default re: Triumph India: Sold Bikes in India with fake performance figures!

My Trials and Tribulations with Triumph! - Delhi Experience.

I have been tracking this thread since it started but the membership to tbhp just got approved so could not contribute. I’ve been pretty close to this subject for the last couple of weeks with various interactions with Triumph- both the dealership and the Management right to the extent of finding out Nick Bloor, Triumph Motorcycles CEO's email address and writing to him.

A short background: 6 months research including test rides of many motorcycles, online research, talking to owners, my wife being part of the entire process, I finally booked the Bonneville (white) in Sept end with the Delhi dealership, from whereon the nightmare started.

At the time of the test ride I was told a delivery timeline of 10-15 days for the White Bonnie, at the time of booking it increased to 1.5- 2 months. As delivery got closer delivery timeline became December. The rates also increased (from Rs. 5.68 lacs to 5.85 lacs) which is the price I had to pay for my slow decision making as well as my stubbornness on the white colour. If I bought the black or silver colour in Sept I was offered the option of go with the lesser price (overall about 25k benefit) but my wife and I were both so in love (and that’s an understatement!) with the white Bonneville that we agreed to pay the increased price with a delivery in mid Nov.

I followed up with the dealership regularly during the period from Sept end and a lot of times my calls would go unreturned. Eventually found out that the Sales guy had left the dealership so got in touch with the dealership GM Vineet who had been quite active during the sales process.

The Horror: in the week that the delivery (mid Nov) was to happen I got a call from Vineet stating that the White Bonnevilles are no longer available since the 2014 colour had been discontinued and the 2015 colours were launched. I was told I had the option to take a refund or go for the black!!! After a 6 month research, 1.5 month intensely emotional wait and that’s what I get..yeah right! The attitude blew my lid off. Created a small menace within Triumph and got in touch with Shoeb (Head of Sales and Dealership Development) and finally with Vimal Sumbly (CEO/MD India, Triumph Motorcycles). Spoke to both of them and they were extremely supportive and assured me that they would do their best to make the white available as per promise (they would get one transported from Pune) and that if I had any issues I could speak to any of them- got their phone number and email address. Was delighted and such a positive and prompt response. I was upset with the dealership but Vimal and Shoeb were a pleasant change to the experience I had had- I was to be proved so wrong!

And then the Bomb Dropped: My pleasant experience was shortlived and a week later I found out about the detuning fiasco! Fully confident that I had enough ‘contacts’ now within Triumph India I called Vineet (dealership) and was given unclear and vague answers. I persisted in getting exact information and was told my Bonneville was the 61 bhp one and got it in writing on an email that all Bonnevilles sold till now are the same as the one being given to me. I was reading TBHP posts with most people believing the older versions were 68 bhp but I did not have the membership to share the email that all Bonnevilles in fact were detuned versions. As expected, blew my lid yet again for I had clearly been told performance figs as 68 bhp and 68 nm of torque. This was mid last week.

The Radio Silence from Triumph: I called up Shoeb and 3 calls were not returned when I left messages with their head office. I was told my message has been delivered to Shoeb but got no response. I wrote to Vimal expecting a response, followed up on emails again but no response. Got increasingly frustrated with their attitude so used some contacts in UK to get Nick Bloor’s (CEO Triumph Motorcycles and John Bloor’s son) email id. Wrote to him a detailed email elaborating how I think Triumph was not coming across as a company with high integrity and values, how customers were feeling cheated and how the silence on this subject was coming across as a suppression of the issue. The email was delivered and read (as you will see in a later email) but was not responded to in spite of follow ups. Here’s some parts of what I wrote:

“ ….Had my issue been of an isolated poor customer experience I would have left it at that. But what I have experienced reflects of an Indian subsidiary with a flawed value system, inadequate ownership and above all lack of integrity, hence my email to you.
……Exaggerating and marketing performance figures higher than actual: As an e.g. the Bonneville A3 was till a few days ago marketed with 68 bhp and 67nm of torque. The performance figures have miraculously changed to 61bhp now. It was not until I proactively asked that I was informed that I was going to be delivered a bike with much lower performance than what I had been told. This is also the case I’m sure with many other buyers who have been conned with higher stated performance figures compared to competitors. I am sure you would agree that such unscrupulous actions are not what Triumph as a company globally stands for. I hope that the least that will be done is that an explanation would be issued to all customers who have been misled- And that I would be delivered what I had been originally promised.
……However, my first point above alone should highlight how Triumph India has lost all credibility and ethos that this brand has stood for for more than a century. While I stand undecided on whether this is a company worth associating with or not, I do hope this email I have written will reach the right individuals to bring about a positive change for future Triumph owners in India.”

Similar email to Vimal Sumbly (MD/CEO India) was not responded to. Twitter posts to Triumph and Vimal- yet again not responded to. Finally I got an email from the Delhi dealership that states:

Dear 'Sting'
This is with reference to your email to Triumph India. We would like emphasize once again that all issues and escalations related to the product are a dealership responsibility. (Basically saying I shouldn’t be creating noise with the Management!)
I would also like to reiterate the fact that as a very special case we are able to get a bike for you from Pune.
Furthermore we have been trying to contact you over the last few days but have met limited success in doing so.
Kindly let us know as to by when can you close the outstanding payment due for your bike, this would help us close down in the earliest possible delivery date for the bike.
Looking forward towards an amicable revert from you on the subject matter.

Post my response to the above email:

Dear 'Sting',
I am referring here to the emails written to Mr. Bloor and Mr. Sumbly.
Once again I would like to retriate that all escalation of such nature are a dealership responsibility.
Please note that the bike specifications mentioned on POP/ Leaflet is the one which is global EU specifications.
Our bikes in India are ARAI certified for CKD , the specification on the web page are correct as per the ARAI reports.
In case you have further query, kindly feel free to speak to me.
Warm Regards,


There’s no doubt that the motorcycles haven’t been recently detuned; all of these models have always had the lower numbers since they were launched in India. What better proof that Pramods’ post with ARAI certificates. The dealership confirmed this to me last week in writing too.

I now stand in a great dilemma. To me the 7-8 bhp drop doesn’t mean much. However, what has really put me off is the great hypocrisy and lack of integrity that the entire Triumph Motorcycles as a company has displayed. In times of such crisis I would expect the Management to stand up and take responsibility. Nick Bloor, Vimal Sumbly and all others have just gone underground and have decided to remain mute in spite if people trying to reach out to them.

They screwed up, no big deal, which company till date hasn’t’?
Be honest and own it up. Apologize and move on.
Will there be repercussions; of course.
Shoving this subject under the carpet will make it worse.

Almost all posts and reviews I have read state that the owners are in love with their machine but feel cheated. No one wants to be associated with a brand with no values and clearly Triumph doesn’t have any. My heart is disgusted with the Management but is in love with the metal and chrome of their products.

What’s their future in India?
Would they support or stand up for their customers in a time of crisis or would they just hide in their rat holes at a time when they need to come out and stand up as a company with values.
Am I promoting dishonesty but paying for a lie?
Would this have happened in the US or EU and would the company and media be as silent?

I do not have the answers and I do not know yet whether I will or will not go ahead with my decision to buy a Bonneville.

To sum it up,

The family and friends are excited about a new motorcycle coming home next week while I struggle with the dichotomy of loving the Bonneville while despising Triumph.


Cheers,
Sting
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Old 26th November 2014, 19:36   #203
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Default re: Triumph India: Sold Bikes in India with fake performance figures!

Overdrive has an article up on the detune, atleast the wording seems to suggest that they spoke directly to Triumph India.

http://overdrive.in/news/triumph-ind...power-figures/
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Old 26th November 2014, 19:51   #204
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Default re: Triumph India: Sold Bikes in India with fake performance figures!

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Overdrive has an article up on the detune, atleast the wording seems to suggest that they spoke directly to Triumph India.

http://overdrive.in/news/triumph-ind...power-figures/
The usual vagueness as has been the case in all communication till now. They have very conviniently said 'all official documents had the ARAI specs' while all marketing material, verbal communication and official website has overstated numbers.
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Old 26th November 2014, 20:18   #205
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Default re: Triumph India: Sold Bikes in India with fake performance figures!

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Originally Posted by A_v_i View Post
Overdrive has an article up on the detune, atleast the wording seems to suggest that they spoke directly to Triumph India.

http://overdrive.in/news/triumph-ind...power-figures/
According to OD, the website was updated recently with the actual figures and the previous figures had a disclaimer saying it was Euro specs.

My doubt is, is the user manual India specific and if yes, does the figure show the Euro or India spec output. Also is there any other document on which the output figures are mentioned when purchasing a Triumph and how different are they.

Apologies if this was discussed earlier.
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Old 26th November 2014, 20:26   #206
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Default Rumour: Triumph India's Motorcycles significantly Detuned

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My doubt is, is the user manual India specific and if yes, does the figure show the Euro or India spec output. Also is there any other document on which the output figures are mentioned when purchasing a Triumph and how different are they.

Apologies if this was discussed earlier.

A owner of street triple on other forum(xbhp) mentioned that his form 20 says 106 bhp.

Where as one more owner(recent) said that it says 78.25 bhp in his papers and when asked about the same to dealership he got reply that they changed i website just for the sake of ARAI.

With Triumph india not making any official statement on it yet, I am just wondering what they are upto!

Last edited by harsha.muvva : 26th November 2014 at 20:28.
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Old 26th November 2014, 21:08   #207
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My doubt is, is the user manual India specific and if yes, does the figure show the Euro or India spec output. Also is there any other document on which the output figures are mentioned when purchasing a Triumph and how different are they.
Attached, this is getting more and more confusing by the minute.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sting View Post
They have very conviniently said 'all official documents had the ARAI specs' while all marketing material, verbal communication and official website has overstated numbers.
What if the owner's manual they issued to me mentions 106.2BHP. I am wondering if there is any legal recourse available to me.

Know any good lawyer folks
Attached Thumbnails
Triumph India: Sold Bikes in India with fake performance figures!-20141126_210352.jpg  


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Old 26th November 2014, 21:17   #208
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Default re: Triumph India: Sold Bikes in India with fake performance figures!

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Attached, this is getting more and more confusing by the minute.
What is the second Maximum Power row for ? Its only valid for Street Triple (non R)?
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Old 26th November 2014, 21:20   #209
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Default re: Triumph India: Sold Bikes in India with fake performance figures!

This is turning out like another Skoda like episode, if the dealer states he is responsible and triumph remains silent ,incase of any unexpected warranty support what kind words of support can we expect from such company which means basically customer has to fend for themselves.

Last week I too mailed on their customer service id yet to get any reply

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Old 26th November 2014, 21:25   #210
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Default re: Triumph India: Sold Bikes in India with fake performance figures!

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What is the second Maximum Power row for ? Its only valid for Street Triple (non R)?
I have no idea, other than that there is a non-standard version of the Striple available, which is supposedly still more powerful than mine

Upon searching for my VIN on Triumph's website, it identifies my model as "Street Triple ABS B1". The B1 bit did not help, seems to be UK spec from the classifieds posted online.

Last edited by A_v_i : 26th November 2014 at 21:33.
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