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Old 27th November 2014, 16:47   #241
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Default re: Triumph India: Sold Bikes in India with fake performance figures!

I guess the word 'Rumor' can (should) be removed from the thread title now.

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Old 27th November 2014, 17:04   #242
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Default re: Triumph India: Sold Bikes in India with fake performance figures!

Triumph India is clearly at fault here and this cannot be a simple oversight of selling bikes which are of lower tune to Indian customers vs. whats available globally

This amounts to outright cheating and I doubt if there is any simple technical resolution of flashing the ECU to bring the power gains back to EU specs

I strongly suspect to bring the indian bikes to EU specs, TI might have to resort to not just flashing ECU but, also manipulate air intake valves, adjustments to throttle body and changes to cam profiles. Or altogether replace these components to make it EU specific

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Originally Posted by dkaile View Post
This is horrifying. MD of TI is blatantly washing his hands of the situation

Does anyone have a brochure which highlights the disclaimer Mr.Sumbly claims is mentioned?

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Originally Posted by man_of_steel View Post
I guess the word 'Rumor' can (should) be removed from the thread title now.
Done. Is the title fine now?
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Old 27th November 2014, 17:05   #243
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Originally Posted by dkaile View Post
Quite shameful and not expected from a company like Triumph -

http://www.vivekthakur.com/blogs/viv...-powered-bikes
I am surprised Vimal Sumbly responded!!

I wrote and followed up multiple times- no response at all. Here is what I had written 7 days ago:

Hi Vimal,

I have been trying to call Shoeb since yesterday but have not had a call back. It has been recently brought to my notice that apparently the engine performance figures stated by Triumph were incorrect and the actual motorcycle delivered to customers are below the specs that have been marketed/promised.

In the case of Bonneville, peak torque has reduced from 68nm to 61 while the hp numbers have reduced from 68 to 61. All this, while there was no official communication from Triumph.

Needless to say that the numbers committed to me were of the 68hp and nm and I am hoping Triumph India will stick to its word and deliver the product I had been promised.

There is intense speculation in the market and I would request Triumph to come out with an official clarification to remove ambiguity. Would appreciate your response.

What's surprising is that the UK headoffice is aware of this issue- I'm sure even before I had written to Nick Bloor but no one's coming out and clarifying.

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Originally Posted by mobike008 View Post
Done. Is the title fine now?
Can I suggest:

Triumph India falsified performance figures (or engine performance) in India?

Selling detuned bikes was okay if they had said they were detuned!

Cheers,
Sting

Last edited by mobike008 : 27th November 2014 at 17:11. Reason: Merging posts. Please read rules before proceeding further. Thanks!
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Old 27th November 2014, 17:15   #244
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Default re: Triumph India: Sold Bikes in India with fake performance figures!

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Originally Posted by mobike008 View Post
Done. Is the title fine now?
Sadly, yes.

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I strongly suspect to bring the indian bikes to EU specs, TI might have to resort to not just flashing ECU but, also manipulate air intake valves, adjustments to throttle body and changes to cam profiles. Or altogether replace these components to make it EU specific
I do'nt think that is practical or TI might ever do it. What I sincerely expect them to do is to slash the price accordingly and give back the difference of the price to the existing customers.
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Old 27th November 2014, 17:23   #245
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Default re: Triumph India: Sold Bikes in India with fake performance figures!

Quote:
Originally Posted by man_of_steel View Post
I do'nt think that is practical or TI might ever do it. What I sincerely expect them to do is to slash the price accordingly and give back the difference of the price to the existing customers.
Ofcourse its not practical and even I know TI will never do it.

Also your recommendation of slashing price and giving the difference is also not practical as it will hurt its going forward sales and overall future in India.

For existing customers

Solution 1
Ideal (very expensive & time consuming as they need to get re-certified by ARAI) solution is to replace the bikes with EU specs

Solution 2
Take the bikes back and give them a full refund

For New customers
Sell both versions side by side with appropriate price cuts. If selling both versions are not possible. Then sell the same detuned bikes after adjusting the pricing which incidentally will have few or no takers (even after price cuts; thats my assumption)

If they do above, they have a future in India. If they take any other shortcut route, they might as well pack their bags and go back to UK as their credibility is completely tarnished and doubt if they will sell even a single bike going forward

Last edited by mobike008 : 27th November 2014 at 17:52.
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Old 27th November 2014, 17:29   #246
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Default re: Triumph India: Sold Bikes in India with fake performance figures!

Would there be some way to promote this falsification internationally? Nothing will put more pressure on a company than bad global press.

As racist as it sounds I wonder if many international automotive media houses will empathise with this Indian cause.
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Old 27th November 2014, 17:43   #247
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Originally Posted by mobike008 View Post

For existing customers

Ideal (very expensive & time consuming as they need to get re-certified by ARAI) solution is to replace the bikes with EU specs

For New customers

Sell both versions side by side with appropriate price cuts

If they do above, they have a future in India. If they take any other shortcut route, they might as well pack their bags and go back to UK as their credibility is completely tarnished and doubt if they will sell even a single bike going forward

This would be the prefect solution.But again I am pretty sure that TI wont choose this

I was surprised to see them saying its mentioned in disclaimer that specs are of EU spec.Heck even couple of day back dealers were saying that there is no detuning as such and it still is 106 PS for street and other models are not detuned as well!

I just hope someone teaches them a lesson
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Old 27th November 2014, 18:27   #248
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Default re: Triumph India: Sold Bikes in India with fake performance figures!

Quote:
Originally Posted by mobike008 View Post

Does anyone have a brochure which highlights the disclaimer Mr.Sumbly claims is mentioned?
I have a brochure/pamphlet/price list sheet from keerthi motors dated may 2014. They have mentioned ST making 106 PS power and there is no disclaimer. If a customer wants to sue them, i guess this document may be of some help.

Vimal washing off his hands is unacceptable. If he knows everything (he must be) then he must own this and fix this by either compensating existing owners (suzuki did this with inazuma though it was not a case of falsifying facts) or else re-tune existing bike. If he does not know then he is not making justice to his post/position.

Last edited by djay99 : 27th November 2014 at 18:30.
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Old 27th November 2014, 18:29   #249
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Default re: Triumph India: Sold Bikes in India with fake performance figures!

As far as this exposure is concerned i am truly disappointed. I know a few people who have cancelled their decision to go for a triumph as a result. I have never tested a street triple so cannot comment on the performance, but the chaps i know who have taken a test ride on the sTriple and the Bonnie have actually favoured the Bonnie in terms of low end performance.
Speaking about the Bonnie: I have actually tested the capabilities of the Bonnie to check the claims of motorcycleusa.com, and this is before switching over to the high flow silencers.
1. The 1st gear top speed: 84km/hr
2. 2nd gear - 100km/hr
3. 3rd gear - 135km/hr (on closed road) (Mods pls delete this lineif this is in violation)
4. I wont mention the top speeds in 4th and 5th (even on closed road settings) as that would be a violation of forum rules

In short the bike performs like the international version as claimed by various websites even at the newly discovered 61BHP. Only thing i have not looked at the time it reached the speeds above. After fitting the HFS the low end torque noticeably increased.

I.E. As a product, the Bonnie is still a great bike to own and ride. What is disappointing and upsetting is the dishonesty of Triumph not divulging the correct figures, especially in case of striple with such a vast difference in power figures.
Even the resale values of these bikes will be affected as a result. As much as the Bonnie is still a great bike to own, i do not feel it fair to suggest a new / potential buyer to go for one due to these antics shown by TI. There are so many new bike manufacturers set to put up shop in India, so many options for a buyer, that i personally feel that Triumph is going to suffer saleswise unless they slash the prices.
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Old 27th November 2014, 18:40   #250
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Default re: Triumph India: Sold Bikes in India with fake performance figures!

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Originally Posted by hifisharu View Post
@A_v_i: Don't give up hope yet. The light at the end of the tunnel is that with some aftermarket bits and some tuning, you can get back all that is lost. It's still a great platform to begin with. I can tell you in the 10,000kms that Ive clocked so far, that the bike is awesome, and brings a wide grin every time I ride. It's a great product, no doubt. People who only look at the paper values and have the ' I want most value for my money' attitude are mistaken. There are some intangible factors which make it still value for money. I have no regrets of buying the Street, or about being a triumph customer. Errors and mistakes are a part and parcel of life, one should just be dignified enough to admit it and offer some amends
Thanks!

Well, i don't have anything against the bike Like you, i am enjoying it every bit. My frustration is about the attitude of the company that does something like this. So i am left wondering about the future of the company and its products in India, i am sure there would be some repercussions of this whole fiasco.

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Originally Posted by BackInTheFold View Post
If I'm an existing Street Triple owner, I'd be rightfully incensed. But I'd direct all my ire at Triumph towards a solution that would get me up to the spec that I thought that I'd originally purchased. All my tirades and anger would be focused on achieving this objective.

Among the Bonneville and Tiger XC, the Tiger XC has not been de-fanged and the Bonneville marginally so. My thought process is now as follows:
- Would I be happy with the stock Bonneville?
- With reasonable spend (e.g. on the Arrows), can I get to UK-factory-tune + performance bump?

I believe the answer to both of these questions is "yes". So, I'm back to square one as to deciding about what I want in the first place, which is squarely within my control.
I agree. I don't care about refunds, or other gestures. All i want is for Triumph to give me the spec i thought i was buying, as simple as that.

Sadly, i don't think getting the Striple up to the Euro spec is as trivial as say the Bonneville. Even with Arrows (which i always planned on getting as soon as i completed my run-in) i am skeptical that Striple will get close to 100BHP
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Old 27th November 2014, 18:42   #251
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Default re: Triumph India: Sold Bikes in India with fake performance figures!

Last week had taken test ride and the brochure mentions the same old figs , I specifically asked the sales guy and his response was only 2015 bikes are detuned and all current deliveries are as per spec sheet.
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Old 27th November 2014, 18:46   #252
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Default re: Triumph India: Sold Bikes in India with fake performance figures!

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Originally Posted by argchoff View Post
As a product, the Bonnie is still a great bike to own and ride. What is disappointing and upsetting is the dishonesty of Triumph not divulging the correct figures, especially in case of striple with such a vast difference in power figures.
My sentiments exactly. Even at 85BHP i am sure the Striple will far exceed my limits as a rider, i just don't care for the dishonesty.

Quote:
Originally Posted by argchoff View Post
There are so many new bike manufacturers set to put up shop in India, so many options for a buyer, that i personally feel that Triumph is going to suffer saleswise unless they slash the prices.
I doubt any price cuts would happen, and certainly no refunds. Frankly, i don't want refunds, since i was already comfortable paying the price i did. Just give me the full spec bike!
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Old 27th November 2014, 19:18   #253
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Default re: Triumph India: Sold Bikes in India with fake performance figures!

Similar to the Nigerian 419 scam and our own Sec 420, this should now be called THE 106 SCAM.

#Triumph106Scam , get it to trend.

I don't own a Triumph, but it was a brand I would've considered for purchase in India before this. For now, I just feel sad for my good friend Jaggu.
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Old 27th November 2014, 19:26   #254
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Default re: Triumph India: Sold Bikes in India with fake performance figures!

Triumph's unethical penny wise and pound foolish approach to the Indian market will surely become a case study in Indian B schools in a couple of years. I used to always wonder why they had Arrows exhausts installed on all their test bikes but thought it was their way of ensuring customers get a sample of their after market stuff and upgrade sooner rather than later. Hopefully they take some corrective action in the coming days to regain lost trust. Are any owners planning on taking them to court?

I dont think international websites have picked up on it, I suppose the best way to put pressure on Triumph outside of a legal recourse is to ensure that the international press shares the story of how Triumph took everyone for a ride.
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Old 27th November 2014, 19:38   #255
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Default re: Triumph India: Sold Bikes in India with fake performance figures!

I just hope this does not lead to Triumph shutting down India operations completely, otherwise we are left with a load of superbikes without an official service support.

Talking from a point of a non-engineer the cheapest way to bring down the BHP would be using a different ECU tune and may be different air filter / restricted exhausts/ throttle limiter. I doubt if they would spend on fabricating a new camshaft with different cam profile, unless they are using parts of the old 790cc engine (providing they are compatible).

If it is just a case of ECU tune, then best way to up the BHP is finding out the EU spec ECU tune number, slot in a KN filter and aftermarket 2x2 pipes (in case of Bonnie)

Last edited by argchoff : 27th November 2014 at 19:50. Reason: Deleted post as it was already sent, new post typed.
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