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Old 27th November 2014, 20:23   #256
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Default re: Triumph India: Sold Bikes in India with fake performance figures!

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Originally Posted by argchoff View Post
Talking from a point of a non-engineer the cheapest way to bring down the BHP would be using a different ECU tune and may be different air filter / restricted exhausts/ throttle limiter. I doubt if they would spend on fabricating a new camshaft with different cam profile, unless they are using parts of the old 790cc engine (providing they are compatible).
The 85BHP model is not specific to India, so i am guessing it makes sense to invest a little more and do a thorough job of detuning the bike. Striple is a stark difference in terms of the power downgrade, compared to the other models(which might have been detuned as how you suggested).

Still hunting online to see if there are posts on the Brazilian model and how to up the power on those...

Last edited by A_v_i : 27th November 2014 at 20:25.
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Old 27th November 2014, 20:38   #257
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Default re: Triumph India: Sold Bikes in India with fake performance figures!

Its really sad that this has happened and a Company with some good products on offer and with a great brand value has stooped to this level in India.

Absolutely inexcusable

I hope they will now be strong enough to stand up and take it on the chin and think of ways of remedying the situation.

One way they could is to look at a refund on the purchase price of the bike in proportion with the difference in the PS figures

Would it be worthwhile to run a poll (may be very theoretical now) on this as to how many will be willing to opt this route ? As been pointed out if TI were to close shop, its going to be a collectively bad scenario for people who bought the bikes. Hence, this line of thinking.

Mods what about a Poll?

Best Regards & Ride Safe

Ram
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Old 27th November 2014, 20:57   #258
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Default re: Triumph India: Sold Bikes in India with fake performance figures!

It boggles my mind, how a reputable international brand could do this. The forum members who have bought these motorcycles should get together and send a legal notice to the company, demanding their money back. This is a case of misrepresentation.
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Old 27th November 2014, 21:05   #259
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Default re: Triumph India: Sold Bikes in India with fake performance figures!

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Originally Posted by gthang View Post
Some serious doubts about this statement.
Of course! Why else would I put just that part in Bold.

I expected all the investigative netizens to be on it by now. Does not seem to have happened.

Interestingly Triumph Germany lists two models for the Striple, one called the 70 KW (ie 106 bhp) one. So the other should be something else. However, as far as I can tell, the specs are the same. Germany is interesting because some time back, the manufacturers and the authorities came to a gentleman's agreement to voluntarily cap bike power outputs. I've forgotten what the figure was.

Litigious society with strong consumer rights, the US, - 106 bhp.

Have to check out France. Till some time back, they actually had a law limiting bike power outputs.

Anyway, over to the passionate bikers.

Regards
Sutripta
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Old 27th November 2014, 21:27   #260
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Default re: Triumph India: Sold Bikes in India with fake performance figures!

I secretly wish I had already bought the bike without knowing the Bonneville specs. I would have had a great bike and the opportunity to start my small battle with Triumph. They're such an easy target right now. They'll probabaly settle out of court.

My only satisfaction could be if I cancel my booking and they deduct the Rs.5000 from my booking amount. I'd certainly spend the remaining money to take them to the consumer court.

Ram, my opinion on the shutdown of operations is that its unlikely, they have a larger setup including an assembly plant,10 dealerships and service centers and great products.

If I were to guess an outcome, someone will be made a scapegoat (dealership? Management?), don't know who and a public statement that will be generalising, apologising it caused 'confusion'. Ppl who take legal recourse will be dealt with on a case by case basis.

I'm no management expert but John Bloor comes across as a businessman- not a corporate CEO. If he sees enough money in India he will sacrifice a goat and move on.

There are so many ways to come out of this- silence is the worst choice.
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Old 27th November 2014, 23:12   #261
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Default re: Triumph India: Sold Bikes in India with fake performance figures!

You know this makes me wonder.

What if person A owned a 79ps ST and assumed all along that it was an 105ps one.For 6 months he has had a beautiful ownership experience,he's got a 'superbike' after all.Good for the ego,good for the image, lots of fun to ride and seeing crazy numbers on the speedo.What if he never knew his triumph was a 79ps handicapped model? Would he have ever got an inkling about it? But if he is informed so,he goes ranting about how cheated he feels.But then what happened to the blissful 6 months?

This entire thing could be turned into a fantastic study.Is there a limit to which an average rider can discern power to? And after that its like placebo effect? Quite interesting!

Last edited by avishar : 27th November 2014 at 23:13.
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Old 27th November 2014, 23:20   #262
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Default re: Triumph India: Sold Bikes in India with fake performance figures!

Saw a comment in the Reddit Thread posted in the subreddit r/motorcyles the link to which can be found here http://www.reddit.com/r/motorcycles/...rs_by_selling/

This comment makes things look a little hopeful for existing customers:
Quote:
We also have detuned Triumphs here in Brazil, where the Street Triple comes with an 85hp figure. The main difference is that they were straightforward from the get go about the power reduction. They did that to escape the higher tax bracket that applies to motorcycles with a peak power of 100hp or more, and that's how they manage to sell the Street Triple R at a lower price than even the MT09 here. It's pretty easy to get the full power back though with a simple airbox mod and the standard engine map (a service offered by many Triumph dealerships). That does, however, voids warranty. Really underhanded of them not being honest about the power reduction with you guys.
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Old 28th November 2014, 00:12   #263
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Default re: Triumph India: Sold Bikes in India with fake performance figures!

Whichever spin Doctor that Triumph hired, well, looks like his prescription is severely contraindicative and is causing a lot of bovine excrement to fly around that is bound to hit the fan soon. Or has it already?

So, let's get this straight about the Street.

Japan has always had restricted bikes. Brazil is also selling restricted bikes. Now, the rest of the markets(majority), the bike is in 106 tune. So, you would imagine that the bike in it's "Natural" state makes 106. You have to do some extra work to restrict the bike to "85" ( How did ARAI make this 79 is another debate). Why did they do it for India? Do we have restrictions on power output? Are other bike manufacturers not selling bikes with full state of tune for our fuels? Whatever the reason, they did something extra and forgot to tell anyone?

OK, so they found a close hp match on the Street from Brazil. What about the Bonnie's numbers and Daytona's? They don't match Brazil's numbers. So, what gives?

Anybody gonna dyno this thing or what?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Sutripta View Post

Have to check out France. Till some time back, they actually had a law limiting bike power outputs.

Regards
Sutripta
Used to think that was linked to rider's age.

Cheers

Ride Safe.
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Old 28th November 2014, 00:12   #264
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Default re: Triumph India: Sold Bikes in India with fake performance figures!

Quote:
Originally Posted by avishar View Post
What if person A owned a 79ps ST and assumed all along that it was an 105ps one.For 6 months he has had a beautiful ownership experience,he's got a 'superbike' after all.Good for the ego,good for the image, lots of fun to ride and seeing crazy numbers on the speedo.What if he never knew his triumph was a 79ps handicapped model? Would he have ever got an inkling about it? But if he is informed so,he goes ranting about how cheated he feels.But then what happened to the blissful 6 months?
No one is debating the virtues of the bike, Striple even in its 85BHP guise is a fantastic bike and am sure all the owners (including myself) are enjoying it every bit (we don't have much of a choice, now do we, given that we paid good money for it ). The contention is the misrepresentation, that's whats got most people miffed.

I don't think it holds that its OK for companies to cheat customers as long as they are not caught.
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Old 28th November 2014, 00:34   #265
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Default re: Triumph India: Sold Bikes in India with fake performance figures!

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Originally Posted by Sutripta View Post
Germany is interesting because some time back, the manufacturers and the authorities came to a gentleman's agreement to voluntarily cap bike power outputs. I've forgotten what the figure was.
Wasn't that the agreement that was made to cap the top speeds of all bikes to 300 km/h worldwide?
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Old 28th November 2014, 02:38   #266
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Default re: Triumph India: Sold Bikes in India with fake performance figures!

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Wasn't that the agreement that was made to cap the top speeds of all bikes to 300 km/h worldwide?
That was almost a decade back if I recall correctly what I read . The original suzuki hayabusha bikes were faster than the current one and top end was reduced slightly due to the agreement .


From hayabusha wikipedia page-
"In 2000, fears of a European regulatory backlash or import ban led to an informal agreement between the Japanese and European manufacturers to limit the top speed of their motorcycles at an arbitrary limit.

The conditions under which this limitation was adopted led to the 1999–2000 Hayabusa's title remaining, at least technically, unassailable, since no subsequent model could go faster without being tampered with. Thus, after the much anticipated Kawasaki Ninja ZX-12R of 2000 fell 4 mph (6 km/h) short of claiming the title, the Hayabusa secured its place as the fastest standard production bike of the 20th century. This gives the unrestricted 1999–2000 models even more cachet with collectors."

Last edited by basuroy : 28th November 2014 at 02:40.
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Old 28th November 2014, 05:54   #267
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Default re: Triumph India: Sold Bikes in India with fake performance figures!

Looks like Triumph is no better than East India Company when it comes to practices.

I understand some owners want to think in the lines of "it is not going to make much difference anyway" and "the products are still brilliant". But, we should realize it is a highest level of brazeness to mislead the entire country, just because we are getting up to speed with superbikes only recently. This, along with the fact that only a very odd chance of anyone going to actually dyno their bike to correlate with the spec sheets and even if someone finds, there are enough loopholes in our law to walk out scot-free. The only aspect they din't account for in this entire plan is the power of internet and forums like these.

For a change, I think in this case the dealers are also going to be scapegoats because of the parent company's lies. (It is usually the dealers that bring wrong reputation to the parent company) .
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Old 28th November 2014, 07:58   #268
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Default re: Triumph India: Sold Bikes in India with fake performance figures!

Well whatever errors have been made intentionally or unintentionally by Triumph, its the end customer who is taking a hit at the moment and TI has to rectify it.

Existing T owners have every reason for being upset on the recent developments. For eg Himalayan water is sold at a premium compared to other bottled waters and its USP is that its a natural mineral water. But what if you come to know that there are no minerals in it, would you still pay a premium for it? After all we just buy bottled water to quench our thirst. So people would say your need of quenching your thirst was fulfilled so why are you ranting about there being no minerals and you paying a premium for it.

So all that the existing customers want is to get there bhp figures to the actual claimed one.

Hence, T should offer the Arrow exhaust to their existing customers as a sign of good gesture, which would inturn push the BHP figures northwards and openly apologise for the goof up.

Secondly existing Triple users (who seem to have suffered the most) should switch to 97 octane if they have access to it and this might help in pushing the BHP figure from the ARAI claimed 79 BHP to the now official 85 BHP.
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Old 28th November 2014, 08:51   #269
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Default re: Triumph India: Sold Bikes in India with fake performance figures!

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Secondly existing Triple users (who seem to have suffered the most) should switch to 97 octane if they have access to it and this might help in pushing the BHP figure from the ARAI claimed 79 BHP to the now official 85 BHP.
This is not at all true. Using high octane fuel does not increase power by any means. Remember, higher the octane rating higher is the ability to stand higher compression ratio and avoid pre ignition. That's exactly why super bikes are advised 97 octane. It has nothing to do with increasing power.
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Old 28th November 2014, 09:14   #270
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Default re: Triumph India: Sold Bikes in India with fake performance figures!

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This is not at all true. Using high octane fuel does not increase power by any means. Remember, higher the octane rating higher is the ability to stand higher compression ratio and avoid pre ignition. That's exactly why super bikes are advised 97 octane. It has nothing to do with increasing power.
Actually, it kind of does.

When you see power rating, for e.g., for Street Triple, it is listed as 106 @ 95 RON. Most modern ECU's will retard and compensate for lower octane, but to meet the specified output and emission, you must have a minimum of 95 RON.

Dunno what RON fuel ARAI tested it, but it is entirely feasible that output dropped to 79, if 85 is what they started with.

Does that mean that ARAI has dyno'd it? Or was this figure calculated?

I also heard that switching to Arrow and the corresponding map makes 95 RON mandatory, and may not adapt to lower octane so well. Might not hear the knocking with the exhaust, so I guess it might be OK

Cheers

Ride Safe.
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