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Old 28th November 2014, 15:17   #286
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Default re: Triumph India: Sold Bikes in India with fake performance figures!

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Originally Posted by harsha.muvva View Post
Exactly what i felt and told him the same.I feel the "solution"(if at all there is any) they are referring to is some kind of compensation rather than providing the specs they have quoted at the time of selling(EU spec).This to an extent should pacify bonnie,speed & daytona owners.But what they are going to offer for street triple owners is going to be really interesting!
Personally, I would be happy if they buy my bike back at whatever is the market cost after depreciation so I can walk away from Triumph India on a happy note and buy elsewhere in globe a Triumph again

Iam totally in love with their bikes but, not with TI's current shoddy attitude in such a delicate situation !!!
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Old 28th November 2014, 16:12   #287
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Default re: Triumph India: Sold Bikes in India with fake performance figures!

Just spoke to the Dealership GM once again and for the first time they were making some sense. Some relevant bits from the conversations:
  • The Head if Triumph Productions (Global) is in India and Triumph Motorcycles is working on a communication plan
  • There might be road shows/group meets organised by Triumph Motorcycles India (not dealership) over the next couple of weeks across all cities (a calendar to be rolled out)
  • They will clarify through this communication what the complete story is and what their next steps are- what the final solution is going to be, no one knows.
  • Triumph realises its a big fiasco and a simple communication on the website isn't sufficient to deal with it.
  • The primary target is the S3 customers since they genuinely have underperforming bikes compared to figures given
  • About 100-120 of the 1000 motorcycles sold by Triumph are S3s
  • About 400-500 are Bonnevilles
  • Bonnevilles, which is what I was (am?) looking to buy is basically not a changed motorcycle from what UK specs offer- poor fuel quality (maybe slight detuning) etc has resulted in lower bhp and torque numbers.

I have no doubts the dealerships cannot solve the problem- they just don't have the scale, skill and management expertise to deal with a fraud of this magnitude - and yes it is a fraud! I don't buy any of this 'took time to update website' bull crap Triumph has been giving till now. What remains to be seen is what solution Triumph will offer S3 owners.

My interpretation and assumptions: Triumph is pooping bricks and realise they do need to come out and own this screw up. There is enough social media wave for them not to hide in their rat holes. They are far too invested in India to pull back from the country- our population and market potential just wouldn't justify this decision.

High level calculations:
Let's say S3s sold till now are 150. Total revenue 12.75 Cr.
My assumption of their CAPEX investment in India: INR 75-100cr
Triumph Motorcycles global profits would be about GBP 20m (INR200 Crores).
India Mid to luxury motorcycles market size in India : Can't find the numbers but the 500cc + market has gone nearly 300% in India in the last one year!! What market do we know of that is growing at this rate.
I can only imagine the 300cc+ market size would look like in terms of valuation.
As I said before no businessman will be looking to exit the market anytime soon. They have screwed up with the customers- not the govt- so they will look to settle this as cordially as they can. Just how they will do it is what I can't get my head around.

Long story short, Triumph isn't running away but someone needs to pick up a brick bat and give them what they have earned for themselves. A good beating...and a high value litigation.
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Old 28th November 2014, 16:38   #288
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Default re: Triumph India: Sold Bikes in India with fake performance figures!

Finally TRIUMPH INDIA decides to speak :

Here is what they have posted on their Facebook page :

"Triumph Motorcycles India Private Limited would like to clarify that the earlier information on Triumph India website displayed the EU specifications, which was mentioned under the terms and conditions section of our website. The testing processes in India and UK are different, which leads to variations in the calculation of power output in PS. The specifications are now updated on the website and are as per the certification under the ARAI regulations.

Since our foray into the Indian market, all our CKD motorcycles in India have been registered as per the ARAI regulations and certifications and same is stated on our current website. Please note that specifications of all our motorcycles sold in India are of similar specifications which are sold elsewhere globally, with few minor variations to comply with Indian regulations.

We have also received some queries with regards to the Street Triple 675, Triumph Motorcycles. We would like to state that the motorcycles sold in India have always been the 85PS (79 PS as per ARAI Test Certificate) variant. We understand that some confusion has been caused to our esteemed customers in relation to the aforesaid. We request our customers to kindly allow us some time to review and revert on the same.

As a brand, Triumph Motorcycles India Private Limited values its customers and their satisfaction is of the utmost importance to us. We request our customers to directly contact the dealerships in their respective cities for any further assistance. The contact detail for each individual dealership is available on our website. Customers can also reach us at customer.care@triumphmotorcycles.in. We will review each query independently and try our best to resolve in accordance with the brand guidelines and procedures.

All media queries should be directed to Mr. Siddhartha Varma at siddhartha@eulogyindia.in."


They just termed what they have done as "some confusion has been caused to our esteemed customers"
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Last edited by harsha.muvva : 28th November 2014 at 16:40.
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Old 28th November 2014, 16:44   #289
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Default re: Triumph India: Sold Bikes in India with fake performance figures!

I read this statement little while back and think its bad start. I think they are trying to douse the fire with some unacceptable "take it or leave it" solution

Quote:
Originally Posted by harsha.muvva View Post
Finally TRIUMPH INDIA decides to speak :

We have also received some queries with regards to the Street Triple 675, Triumph Motorcycles. We would like to state that the motorcycles sold in India have always been the 85PS (79 PS as per ARAI Test Certificate) variant. We understand that some confusion has been caused to our esteemed customers in relation to the aforesaid. We request our customers to kindly allow us some time to review and revert on the same.
This is such a blatant LIE that its really hard to digest that its coming from an official of Triumph

Each and every owner of Street Tripple bought the bike thinking its 106PS in the first place as TI and all their dealership have been distributing (email, phamplets, website, brochures and bike manuals claim it to be 106PS)...Where were the figures of 79PS then???

Guys, I have a feeling TI will not provide any solution and will first take a soft solution approach (maybe offer a 50K cash back..or something on those lines) unless someone knocks some sense into them and drop a big bomb in their lap
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Old 28th November 2014, 16:52   #290
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Default re: Triumph India: Sold Bikes in India with fake performance figures!

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Originally Posted by harsha.muvva View Post
As a brand, Triumph Motorcycles India Private Limited values its customers and their satisfaction is of the utmost importance to us.
This particular line from any corporate communication essentially means we are on our own! I hate it when they say that..

Last edited by man_of_steel : 28th November 2014 at 16:54.
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Old 28th November 2014, 16:58   #291
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Default re: Triumph India: Sold Bikes in India with fake performance figures!

Quote:
Originally Posted by harsha.muvva View Post
..... all our CKD motorcycles in India have been registered as per the ARAI regulations and certifications and same is stated on our current website. Please note that specifications of all our motorcycles sold in India are of similar specifications which are sold elsewhere globally, with few minor variations to comply with Indian regulations.
Translated to: Other than Stripple owners, who we have no explanation for, we don't really care what other owners feel about their slight power drops figures.

Quote:
Originally Posted by harsha.muvva View Post
We understand that some confusion has been caused to our esteemed customers in relation to the aforesaid. We request our customers to kindly allow us some time to review and revert on the same.
Can the swearing rule please be relaxed just for a few hours to TBHP. Pretty please!

In case it can't all I'll say is : Swear word (1)! Swear word (2)!.... and so on.

Cheers,
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Old 28th November 2014, 17:11   #292
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Default re: Triumph India: Sold Bikes in India with fake performance figures!

So this siddharth varma is going to magically retune all triumphs with a email and a phonecall and bump up 10-30Bhp? wow, what a wonder mechanic!

Its these things that totally piss off any customer, that too who had a choice to put 2.5-5Lacs on a proven Bajaj/probiking or any Jap machine! Their only mistake was to choose the wrong brand, and at what cost!!

Whats worser than a lemon; a machine that isnt a lemon, but the management is one, and becoming the butt of beer and chai meets "dude your bike is only 70 not 106!!!".
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Old 28th November 2014, 17:11   #293
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Default re: Triumph India: Sold Bikes in India with fake performance figures!

Quote:
Originally Posted by mobike008 View Post

Each and every owner of Street Tripple bought the bike thinking its 106PS in the first place as TI and all their dealership have been distributing (email, phamplets, website, brochures and bike manuals claim it to be 106PS)...Where were the figures of 79PS then???
It is no doubt a fraud.Even when enquired a week ago(when the rumour started) the dealerships were claiming that it still is 105PS and the numbers they made now are just for sake of ARAI

Now the biggest question for me is Are the dealerships aware of this 79 PS from beginning??
Or even they got fooled equally?

Quote:
Guys, I have a feeling TI will not provide any solution and will first take a soft solution approach (maybe offer a 50K cash back..or something on those lines) unless someone knocks some sense into them and drop a big bomb in their lap
With this reply(they were no where accepting the mistake), I am not expecting anything good from them.I think its time for customers to prepare for legal battle.

P.S: Its surprising to see no bashing of triumph from media

Last edited by harsha.muvva : 28th November 2014 at 17:13.
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Old 28th November 2014, 17:30   #294
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Default re: Triumph India: Sold Bikes in India with fake performance figures!

Here's Triumph's official statement on the specification fiasco.

Quote:
Delhi, 28th November, 2014: Triumph Motorcycles India Private Limited would like to clarify that the earlier information on Triumph India website displayed the EU specifications, which was mentioned under the terms and conditions section of our website. The testing processes in India and UK are different, which leads to variations in the calculation of power output in PS. The specifications are now updated on the website and are as per the certification under the ARAI regulations.

Since our foray into the Indian market, all our CKD motorcycles in India have been registered as per the ARAI regulations and certifications and same is stated on our current website. Please note that specifications of all our motorcycles sold in India are of similar specifications which are sold elsewhere globally, with few minor variations to comply with Indian regulations.

We have also received some queries with regards to the Street Triple 675, Triumph Motorcycles. We would like to state that the motorcycles sold in India have always been the 85PS (79 PS as per ARAI Test Certificate) variant. We understand that some confusion has been caused to our esteemed customers in relation to the aforesaid. We request our customers to kindly allow us some time to review and revert on the same.

As a brand, Triumph Motorcycles India Private Limited values its customers and their satisfaction is of the utmost importance to us. We request our customers to directly contact the dealerships in their respective cities for any further assistance. The contact detail for each individual dealership is available on our website. Customers can also reach us at customer.care@triumphmotorcycles.in. We will review each query independently and try our best to resolve in accordance with the brand guidelines and procedures.

Last edited by Aditya : 29th November 2014 at 10:08.
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Old 28th November 2014, 17:56   #295
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Default re: Triumph India: Sold Bikes in India with fake performance figures!

Although I have been following this thread with great interest, much before this fiasco one question that I always pondered about is now showing some relevance in this 'Triumph Fraud' context.

When ever I see the review of new bikes by the Indian auto mags, they always comment about the engine packing this... the exhaust note doing that...the mind blowing acceleration doing this & that....da da da.....and at the bottom of the article display a spec sheet taken directly from the manufacturer. Whereas when we see any new bike reviews in the US & European mags, most times there is a mention of "when we ran it on our dyno it put out...bhp etc as against the claimed...of the manufacturer" (most times this difference may be very minimal coz the manufacturer must be doing under some 'ideal' test conditions, but atleast the mags would know if there is such a huge difference). I do understand the Indian journos dont have easy access to this machine, but I am sure its now available in most major cities for a fee and hence its HIGH TIME that our dear desi journos waxing eloquent about a bike also do this when a bike is introduced in the market so that customers dont pay for an orange and get a tiny lemon.
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Old 28th November 2014, 18:13   #296
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Default re: Triumph India: Sold Bikes in India with fake performance figures!

As per a previous post in this thread , they only updated their website because some Indian review house decided to take the triple to the dyno and were surprised by the outcome . This is no confusion they realized on their own, this is fraud of very clever kind - clever as in mention UK specs in fine print while verbally pandering higher figures . The customers huge majority of whom are perhaps riding bikes of this power for the first time can be easily fooled(also hardly anyone goes WOT during test ride or first 200-1000km of ownership , 80bhp is still mind numbing power ) , I mean experienced riders from overdrive etc couldn't tell a goddamn difference compared to a Z800 , what can a regular man say .

They have taken advantage of the inexperience and any company(or perhaps better word will be management , never read anything similar abroad until now) that takes advantage of fine prints is despicable and should be treated as such .


As for dealers , they rarely know much do they . The KTM dealership here knows nothing , the two harley dealership I have been too knew nothing about the finer details like 0-100 time or power figure(though of course harley doesn't offers the same either , normally quote torque without mentioning the rpm ). I don't mind that and don't really expect that either (though a good management will advertise those figures ), I arm myself with those basic figures beforehand and while I am oblivious to triumph dealership's ability to communicate accurate figures , doubt there will be massive gap between them and HD . They likely took the brochure for face value like everyone else , the upper management is rotten .

ps: Both ex-bajaj maestros no less , KTM duke ARAI certificate anyone ? just kidding , multiple youtube videos still peg the bike at 5.5 sec to 100 .

Quote:
Originally Posted by Haroon View Post
I do understand the Indian journos dont have easy access to this machine, but I am sure its now available in most major cities for a fee and hence its HIGH TIME that our dear desi journos waxing eloquent about a bike also do this when a bike is introduced in the market so that customers dont pay for an orange and get a tiny lemon.
Spot on though as I stated above , it was a review house(cannot recall the name , let me go through previous pages and find the link) which forced triumph to update the website though I agree with you wholeheartedly . The foreign journos not just hit the dyno but mention 0-60mph , 0-100mph and so on figures , the weight of the bike (which often varies from website mentioned by a kg or four ) . Here they more often than not simply borrow those figures from elsewhere , a couple of these review houses are massive , should be able to afford a dyno and some safe stretch of road to determine 0-100kmph time , a very important performance figure .

Last edited by basuroy : 28th November 2014 at 18:26.
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Old 28th November 2014, 18:19   #297
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Default re: Triumph India: Sold Bikes in India with fake performance figures!

Triumph should be properly penalized for misleading customers.
Website says something, and bike actual has something is cheating. In this case, it looks like some fool copied out specs from some where and pasted it onto the new india website.
But the company has to now take the full responsibility for this fiasco. Triump should be dragged to court and properly penalized.
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Old 28th November 2014, 18:19   #298
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Default re: Triumph India: Sold Bikes in India with fake performance figures!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Haroon View Post
Although I have been following this thread with great interest, much before this fiasco one question that I always pondered...

....in most major cities for a fee and hence its HIGH TIME that our dear desi journos waxing eloquent about a bike also do this when a bike is introduced in the market so that customers dont pay for an orange and get a tiny lemon.
+1

Maybe this will wake them up. The auto journalists got taken for a free ride- quite literally!

Quote:
Originally Posted by harsha.muvva View Post
Its surprising to see no bashing of triumph from media
A couple of reasons I can think of:

1. As Haroon's post states above the automotive media houses themselves have screwed up by going 'da da da' over the Stripple's (in)famous 106 bhp. Apart from OD no one has come out to own up. I have to confess OD's article raised my respect for them.

2. They are indifferent and waiting for it to evolve. After Triumph's half hearted confession maybe a few more will write about it.

3. ".......Mr Siddhartha Varma at siddhartha@eulogyindia.in. ....." His competence(or the lack of it) could significantly determine how general media reacts to this. Seems like Triumph has hired a PR agency for this task - or maybe they already had one and are using it. Can I recommend Genesis PR agency instead? Heard their disaster management is the best

Could be many more..

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Old 28th November 2014, 18:43   #299
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Default re: Triumph India: Sold Bikes in India with fake performance figures!

"some confusion has been caused", "will review and revert" bla bla bla.

After all this mess, we don't even deserve an apology?

Slightly OT: I remember when Haagen Dazs opened their first outlet in Delhi, they had a sign board which read "Access restricted to holders of international passport only" which had created quite a stir at that time. Considering the crowd in their outlets here, apparently no one really cares about that episode now. As long as Triumph doesn't ditch the market and are able to bring in good quality products, I guess our folks will be ready to forget this fiasco and move on.
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Old 28th November 2014, 19:09   #300
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Default re: Triumph India: Sold Bikes in India with fake performance figures!

At the risk of sounding repetitive, I still insist there is something extremely fishy about Triumph's explanation.

How is it that Triumph's 85 becomes 79 when ARAI tests it? Why is it that Kawasaki N650 gets identical to the decimal point ratings of 72.1 in India and abroad? Are they not displaying ARAI numbers?

Care to compare other CKD bikes and their ratings?

Really stale English Fish and chips.

Cheers

Ride Safe.
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