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Old 29th November 2014, 17:34   #316
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Default re: Triumph India: Sold Bikes in India with fake performance figures!

Guys,

I have an interesting development to share with you all.

Mr. Saket Talwar (owner of Rebel Motors-Triumph Dealership) in Hyderabad has offered to buy back all Street Tripples they sold (whoever is interested to return it)

When I approached for my Bonneville. I got a response from Mr. Talwar that they wont take Bonneville back and when I asked him whether 7bhp difference doesnt amount to cheating? His response was ARAI tested the Bonneville on low fuel quality and with higher octane fuel, the Bonneville which as per ARAI is 61BHP will show 68BHP on Dyno

I was taken back by this comment.

Mr. Talwar is openly challenging me that just by changing the fuel the Bonneville will gain 7BHP !!!!!!

We all know its simply not possible. Because even a full 2x2 Arrow exhaust system ups the power of a Bonneville just by 5-7BHP power (as quoted by Arrows on their official website) and here Mr. Talwar is talking of a straight 7bhp gain just by using Octane 97

Instead of owning up on company's fault, he is defending them and openly challenging me to above. Now iam not even sure if the ARAI figures are 61BHP for the Bonnie. Does anyone have the ARAI certification for Bonnie?

Does anyone think this is possible???

Cheers
Avi
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Old 29th November 2014, 18:14   #317
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Default re: Triumph India: Sold Bikes in India with fake performance figures!

Buy back the Stripples! Wow...!

Did he mention depreciated value or the original one? I'm guessing the latter. Will be interesting to see what buyers have to say about it. I think the loss to the company would be INR 8-12 crore(depending on the dep policy) because of this move. And if they resold these as second hand co. certified motorcycles they would find the buyers reducing losses. i do think there will be a second hand market for these.

Avi, the dealership in Delhi has told me Bonnies are basically unaltered and technically not detuned. Had a very clear conversation around this and was pedantic in getting the exact words out of the GM. Only a dyno test would clarify.

Does anyone know of a facility in Delhi. Ive told the dealership that IF i do pick up the Bonnie this week i will go for a dyno test- any major mismatches and they're in for trouble.

Btw, I've been told i can take as long as i want to take my decision and wait and see if I'm satisfied with Triumphs handling of this issue. The dealership will hold on to my bike. Its the last few(maybe only) of the white/blue ones left. The 2015 has the higher propotion of blue tank. Im fixed on the higher propotioned white.

Cheers,
Sting
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Old 29th November 2014, 18:38   #318
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Default Re: Triumph India: Sold Bikes in India with fake performance figures!

Offering to buy back the street triples is a positive step to start off. The 7 bhp difference on the bonneville should be offset with a free upgrade like arrow exhaust or 4 year warranty or something. Too much goodwill will be lost if not acted upon.
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Old 29th November 2014, 18:45   #319
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Default Re: Triumph India: Sold Bikes in India with fake performance figures!

What a terrible guffaw...and one in which only the Triumph bike owner loses.

We have to sincerely thank BHPian DipantS whose post originally brought this malpractice to light.

If I'm paying for 1 liter of coke, I better get 1 liter of coke. If I pay for 2 GB of RAM on my smartphone, I better get 2 GB of RAM. That's the basis of any commercial transaction. Similarly, if I've paid a couple of lakhs for a motorcycle with 'supposedly' 105 BHP on tap, I better get that. If I don't, I've been cheated.

The website said so, the dealerships said so, the spec sheets said so, their facebook posts said so. What idiots to have silently updated their website without formally informing their customers. Even Triumph's lame official response came a full 2 weeks after Dipant blew the lid off Triumph's games.

This is a clear case of fraud, cheating & lies. Doesn't matter if it was an honest mistake or not. They've wronged their customers and they better make it up to them. A silly press release accounts for nothing.

And no, they can write whatever they want in their terms & conditions. It doesn't absolve them of deficiency in the product actually delivered. I hear that some owners are planning to take Triumph to court. I hope that happens soon.

The only other similar case I can think of is when Fiat carelessly forgot to recalibrate the Palio's speedometer to account for a change in tyre size. Hence, the speed & fuel efficiency readings were all wrong for owners. Now that was an honest mistake.
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Old 29th November 2014, 19:31   #320
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Default Re: Triumph India: Sold Bikes in India with fake performance figures!

Quote:
Originally Posted by mobike008 View Post
Mr. Saket Talwar (owner of Rebel Motors-Triumph Dealership) in Hyderabad has offered to buy back all Street Tripples they sold (whoever is interested to return it)

His response was ARAI tested the Bonneville on low fuel quality and with higher octane fuel, the Bonneville which as per ARAI is 61BHP will show 68BHP on Dyno
Not knowing the guy's credentials, that would be prejudiced of me but
I do think Mr Talwar is talking out of his rear. And will those Street Triples be taken back at current resale, new ex-showroom, or new on-road prices? Is that a dealer initiative or a company one ?

As for power and dynos - in the real world, the same bike can make 4-5% hp more or less depending on atmospheric conditions (air temperature, density, humidity). This is why there are supposedly standard test conditions prescribed as a correction factor, by SAE to compensate for differences in air temperature/pressure/humidity to get standardized results.

For example, the 1998 R1 varied from as low as 127hp at the wheel to 133hp, that's a range of 6hp on stock bikes. Not for this specific instance, it was probably a Gixxer, but I have seen the SAE correction applied to measured horspower, and the SAE-corrected amount was 3-4hp lower ; this is in the US, probably done in northern areas or colder weather hence lowered corrected figure.

So within the limits of measured power output owing to production tolerances and weather conditions, I can accept 5-10hp differences under Indian (hotter) climate conditions. So your Bonnie could well make 68hp but not just by 97 octane fuel alone !


The real goof up Triumph did is with the Street Triple, advertising as 106PS machine but selling an 85PS spec machine. This does raise the question of how people couldn't tell a 79PS machine from a 106PS one - but if the ARAI asserted numbers are an indication, the 106PS ST3 is more likely a 98PS ST3. While I can't speak for experienced road-tester journalists, I did ride the Street Triple and Daytona on different days, I did clearly feel the Street was less powerful , but I thought that was simply what a 20hp deficiency compared to Daytona felt like. I have never ridden any other big capacity bike other than a Hyosung GT650 briefly , and the Ninja 650 never. So I had no personal benchmark of what 70-75hp motorbikes perform like. I simply assumed this was what a 20hp difference felt like, when in reality it is closer to 40hp. And of course, on public roads, I was nowhere near exploring the limits of their performance, at most I hit around 8000rpm during the test-ride.

So Triumph India, you've got an apology to make to Street Triple owners for misleading marketing material and possible legal action to defend against, and that ARAI test methods/SAE correction clarification is a separate issue, to show why my 128PS Euro-spec Daytona is actually a 118PS India-spec Daytona.

PS: in lighter vein, a fellow Triumph rider commented that the bike should now be referred to as De-tuna !

Last edited by Ricci : 29th November 2014 at 19:43.
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Old 29th November 2014, 20:29   #321
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Default Re: Triumph India: Sold Bikes in India with fake performance figures!

Race Dynamics just posted this Dyno Graph of a Street Triple.

Quote
'Dyno graphs for the Triumph Street Triple are posted below:

While the DynaRD dynamometer measures power and torque at the wheels, the graph below is corrected to show estimated crank figures.

The higher power/torque curve is off the bike that had come straight to us after its first service.

WIth all the controversy surrounding these bikes and their power outputs, it goes without saying that the owners were extremely satisfied with the outcome!'

Le Halua!

EDIT: I have come to know from another bhpian that the dyno-ed bike has arrow exhausts and is remapped.Great.Spread more disinformation and add to the confusion!
Attached Thumbnails
Triumph India: Sold Bikes in India with fake performance figures!-1398262_10152556112219779_6181185627700119435_o.jpg  


Last edited by avishar : 29th November 2014 at 20:51.
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Old 29th November 2014, 20:33   #322
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Default Re: Triumph India: Sold Bikes in India with fake performance figures!

I think the ST issue is shadowing the fact that Triumph India's goof up is across the model range.

No matter what the difference is , they SHOULD have quoted the ARAI numbers atleast in their own print media ( if not for the website ).

61bhp Bonneville SE was sold as 68bhp
78bhp ST was sold as 106bhp
116bhp Daytona was sold as 126bhp
125bhp Speed Triple was sold as 133bhp

I dont understand why ST customers should be given preferential treatment and Triumph is able to get away with saying ARAI ratings and specs match on other models.

What stopped them from stating the ARAI figures from day 1 ? Is this not mandatory ?
Doesnt this amount to Corporate negligence ? They have breached their duty to inform the customer with the right specifications and thereby , caused harm - monetarily and emotionally


You SHOULD have used the ARAI ratings right from the beginning and then stated that there is a difference to their testing methods . No customer would have denied Triumph the freedom to state their case against ARAI (just verbally even).

To hide the facts and continue generating sales and fans for the brand is beyond just "error on website" and " you'll missed the fine print" .

By denying that they have done wrong to probably more than 400 Bonneville Customers, Triumph is headed towards a dead end.

Last edited by absynthguzzler : 29th November 2014 at 20:46.
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Old 29th November 2014, 21:20   #323
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Default Re: Triumph India: Sold Bikes in India with fake performance figures!

I am really confused about the graph put up by @avishar.

The Triump India website displays Stree Triple specs of 79 PS that is 77.89 HP and a Speed Triple of 127 PS that is 125.21 HP.
I assume this HP is measured at the wheel by dyno in ARAI.

With the above graph the HP seems to be 96.51 HP at the wheels. So for Street Triple do we want to now say that Triumph India is selling bikes with higher HP than what they advertise? And if the graph is for Speed Triple then Triumph sells bikes to us which is nearly 25HP less?


Also the above graph uses the correction factor to depict engine HP which is @ 4%.
Isn't it too low a figure. Only 4% losses from Engine to wheels? I though it would be higher.

I have no two wheeler experience but just to give some values of a Tractor.

The power at PTO (Power take off unit) is generally 8-12% lower than the Engine HP.
Its obvious that a tractor with lots of revolving gears and a heavy clutch eating up HP is leading to this reduction of 8 to 12%.

I expected lower figures for Motorbike but 4% is very less I feel so. If some expert can throw light on these figures it will be good to know that.

Also when one says engine HP for a two wheeler do we substract the HP losses due to engine auxilliaries?

Last edited by amit_purohit20 : 29th November 2014 at 21:29. Reason: More points added.
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Old 29th November 2014, 21:21   #324
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Default Re: Triumph India: Sold Bikes in India with fake performance figures!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sting View Post
Buy back the Stripples! Wow...! Did he mention depreciated value or the original one? I'm guessing the latter. Will be interesting to see what buyers have to say about it. I think the loss to the company would be INR 8-12 crore(depending on the dep policy) because of this move. And if they resold these as second hand co. certified motorcycles they would find the buyers reducing losses. i do think there will be a second hand market for these.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ACM View Post
Offering to buy back the street triples is a positive step to start off. The 7 bhp difference on the bonneville should be offset with a free upgrade like arrow exhaust or 4 year warranty or something. Too much goodwill will be lost if not acted upon.
Well, Mr. Talwar as loosely making his comment to buy back the Street Tripple (see his facebook comment image below) has also taken it back.

Now on whatsapp group. He says, he will offer "goodies" to Street Tripple owners. And members are doing this....

Isn't it highly unprofessional for versions to be changed so easily especially from someone who owns the Triumph Dealership (Hyderabad)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sting View Post
Avi, the dealership in Delhi has told me Bonnies are basically unaltered and technically not detuned. Had a very clear conversation around this and was pedantic in getting the exact words out of the GM. Only a dyno test would clarify.
Sting. Please see the ARAI certificates shared to me by Rebel Motors ASC Manager (Amal Tewari). When I requested him these certificates he immediately shared it on whatsapp

If you see Bonnie is 44.7KW powered which is 61PS or 59.9 BHP. I was shocked to see that Bonnie is 59.9 BHP. This is indeed cheating as they gave brochures for 68BHP and everything else matches the same like manual etc.

I asked him 3-4 times does he have these certificates right from Day 1. NO RESPONSE !!!!!!

He simply ignored my question

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricci View Post
Not knowing the guy's credentials, that would be prejudiced of me but I do think Mr Talwar is talking out of his rear. And will those Street Triples be taken back at current resale, new ex-showroom, or new on-road prices? Is that a dealer initiative or a company one ?
Ricci, Saket Talwar made many comments on Triumph India Motorcycle Facebook Page and when members were asking him clarifications to his childish and immature comments. He skirted away from there not to reappear again

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricci View Post
PS: in lighter vein, a fellow Triumph rider commented that the bike should now be referred to as De-tuna !
LOL. This is hilarious and so TRUE

Quote:
Originally Posted by avishar View Post
Race Dynamics just posted this Dyno Graph of a Street Triple.
Racedyamics should test on a stock ST. How can their dyno test show results more than ARAI results of 79BHP? So this means Street Tripple owners should rejoice that with their bikes are higher BHP than what even the manafacturer is claiming now as per their public statements

Quote:
Originally Posted by absynthguzzler View Post
I think the ST issue is shadowing the fact that Triumph India's goof up is across the model range. No matter what the difference is , they SHOULD have quoted the ARAI numbers atleast in their own print media ( if not for the website ). 61bhp Bonneville SE was sold as 68bhp
Right Arun. Iam surprised that all hyderabad triumph owners are behaving so cool as if nothing has happened (including the ST owners) and infact supporting the dealership praising their attitude and saying they will find a solution. Not a single guy seems distraught with the entire situation

Infact, they are even planning a ride tomorrow with Rebel Motors...!!!
Attached Thumbnails
Triumph India: Sold Bikes in India with fake performance figures!-img20141129wa031.jpg  

Triumph India: Sold Bikes in India with fake performance figures!-img20141129wa032.jpg  

Triumph India: Sold Bikes in India with fake performance figures!-img20141129wa033.jpg  

Triumph India: Sold Bikes in India with fake performance figures!-img_20141129_133518.png  

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Old 29th November 2014, 21:37   #325
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Default Re: Triumph India: Sold Bikes in India with fake performance figures!

Quote:
Originally Posted by mobike008 View Post
Guys,

I have an interesting development to share with you all.

Mr. Saket Talwar (owner of Rebel Motors-Triumph Dealership) in Hyderabad has offered to buy back all Street Tripples they sold (whoever is interested to return it) i
Some movement, but with Triumph India today, I'd have experienced lawyers go over the fineprint. And does not take away from the fact that their intentions were decidedly less than honorable.

Quote:
When I approached for my Bonneville. I got a response from Mr. Talwar that they wont take Bonneville back and when I asked him whether 7bhp difference doesnt amount to cheating? His response was ARAI tested the Bonneville on low fuel quality and with higher octane fuel, the Bonneville which as per ARAI is 61BHP will show 68BHP on Dyno

I was taken back by this comment.

Mr. Talwar is openly challenging me that just by changing the fuel the Bonneville will gain 7BHP !!!!!!
...
Does anyone think this is possible???
HP measurement/ calculation figures are a can of worms, and a 10% (+-5%) raw diff is possible. Esp. when measured at vastly different times, geographical areas, different instruments, different people manning the instruments, and possibly different procedures. (And let us not get into the 'correction factors', a favourite of all tuners!)

Interestingly, but largely academic for our discussion, is the fact that a party paying for a test/ measurement is entitled to a detailed description of how the test was carried out, the instruments used, and if asked for, the calibration certificates of the instruments used. This is a worldwide standard.

Equally interesting, in India there used to be (and since no laws are repealed in India, still is) a law which said that for legal purposes, test results from a government lab are final. So even if ARAI got it wrong ...

Fuel efficiency figures advertised in India have to be ARAI figures, by law. Does it apply to any other ARAI figures?

Has any manufacturer taken back a car because it did not meet tall claims FE figures? In India manufacturers will try to inflate their FE figures. Similarly, abroad, esp. for the performance sector, manufacturers will try to inflate their power figures to the limit where their lawyers tell them they can get away with it.

Regards
Sutripta

PS. I see quite a few new posts while I was composing this.
Didn't need lawyers to comb through the fine print, did it?

Last edited by Sutripta : 29th November 2014 at 21:40.
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Old 29th November 2014, 21:46   #326
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Default Re: Triumph India: Sold Bikes in India with fake performance figures!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sutripta View Post
So even if ARAI got it wrong ...

Fuel efficiency figures advertised in India have to be ARAI figures, by law. Does it apply to any other ARAI figures?
Exactly! Rather than the customers of Triumph , you expect that the authorities would have taken action on their negligence by now. Im amused that its all down to just one bike model loosing power.
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Old 29th November 2014, 22:07   #327
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Quote:
Originally Posted by avishar View Post
Race Dynamics just posted this Dyno Graph of a Street Triple.

Quote
'Dyno graphs for the Triumph Street Triple are posted below:

While the DynaRD dynamometer measures power and torque at the wheels, the graph below is corrected to show estimated crank figures.

The higher power/torque curve is off the bike that had come straight to us after its first service.

WIth all the controversy surrounding these bikes and their power outputs, it goes without saying that the owners were extremely satisfied with the outcome!'

Le Halua!

EDIT: I have come to know from another bhpian that the dyno-ed bike has arrow exhausts and is remapped.Great.Spread more disinformation and add to the confusion!

Haha, are the people in RD not aware of the fact that Arrow exhausts have a different map altogether?

So what's Triumph going to do for the existing customers? I guess providing Arrow exhausts to everyone which in turn gives the power mentioned by them all these days.
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Old 30th November 2014, 00:22   #328
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Default Re: Triumph India: Sold Bikes in India with fake performance figures!

Triumph is in big trouble. They need to directly compensate the customers either in cash or kind. The solution for street triple may be in providing arrow exhaust to all but here too this negates the option that the customer had of boosting power further up from 106 also what about those who already bought the exhaust and remap.

For the remaining possibly they need to do a combination of partial refund plus upgrade kid plus extended warranty.

They need to this proactively before someone sues them and leads the way to a major court imposed penalty.

A few heads too need to roll.

The sequence of steps they have taken recently is quite immature and unprofessional. They are only digging a bigger pit for themselves.

Just talk and PR will not work out they need to talk in terms of financial compensation and be more than reasonable and for those who insist a refund of the ex showroom price is unavoidable. Even a 10-15% deviation in the hard copy literature and actual specs is not acceptable.

Last edited by ACM : 30th November 2014 at 00:29.
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Old 30th November 2014, 09:13   #329
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Default Re: Triumph India: Sold Bikes in India with fake performance figures!

On the move so just a short one from me.

1- ARAI does bench test at output shaft. Reliable info from an engineer who had experience.
2- Detune of 5-6 bhp normal for fuel quality.
3- RD tested 2 bikes, one with arrow, arrow map and 97 Ron petrol made the graph you see and that too the wheel horse power is much lesser.
4- Stock Triple made much lesser power which corresponds to 85 bhp Brazil version.
5- If ARAI rating was available with dealers at day 1, they also should have questioned. If not they are also party to this cheating!
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Old 30th November 2014, 10:32   #330
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Default Re: Triumph India: Sold Bikes in India with fake performance figures!

Quote:
Originally Posted by mobike008 View Post
Mr. Saket Talwar (owner of Rebel Motors-Triumph Dealership) in Hyderabad has offered to buy back all Street Tripples they sold (whoever is interested to return it)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sting View Post
Buy back the Stripples! Wow...!

Did he mention depreciated value or the original one? I'm guessing the latter. Will be interesting to see what buyers have to say about it. I think the loss to the company would be INR 8-12 crore(depending on the dep policy) because of this move. And if they resold these as second hand co. certified motorcycles they would find the buyers reducing losses. i do think there will be a second hand market for these.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricci View Post
Not knowing the guy's credentials, that would be prejudiced of me but I do think Mr Talwar is talking out of his rear. And will those Street Triples be taken back at current resale, new ex-showroom, or new on-road prices? Is that a dealer initiative or a company one ?
Dealer buying back Striples is not limited to Hyderabad, i have been offered to return my bike (1 week old Striple) for a full refund by the Pune dealer. Given multiple dealers are offering this now, i presume it is backed by Triumph and not the dealer themselves. The refund would be whatever was the original amount paid by the owner, not sure if amount spent on accessories would be refunded too.

I am in half a mind to actually take the dealer up on his offer and return the bike, and just get out of this mess

Striples are going to take a big hit, both in new sales and resale. If the dealers start buying back the bikes and dumping them on the preowned market, that would destroy the value of my bike if i choose to hold on to it.

Here is a thought, why not i return my Striple to Triumph and buy it back as a preowned one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaggu View Post
If ARAI rating was available with dealers at day 1, they also should have questioned. If not they are also party to this cheating!
Exactly, and none of the dealers are answering this question. Given they had the ARAI certificate from day one, why didn't they bring up the discrepancy with Triumpuh.

Last edited by A_v_i : 30th November 2014 at 10:42.
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