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Old 2nd December 2014, 10:49   #376
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Default Re: Triumph India: Sold Bikes in India with fake performance figures!

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Originally Posted by A_v_i View Post
Right, but anything other than a dyno run would be inconclusive. Of course, the dyno runs for the Striples so far have not given me much confidence in them either
I don't see much of confusion there, apart from the way in which the info was published and messed up by not revealing the details of correction etc. They should have just published wheel readings and left it at that, and that too for a stock bike running normal 91 Ron petrol.

Dyno on 2 wheelers are dicey, esp on a chain final drive since loss % can vary dramatically.
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Old 2nd December 2014, 10:53   #377
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Originally Posted by Jaggu View Post
I don't really understand why this confusion, isn't it clear! all that was a big cover up story??!!

Street Triple Sold In India Was Brazilian Spec 85 Bhp Version

@Jaggu - if you notice I was referring to all other variants from Triumph (apart from ST3).
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Old 2nd December 2014, 11:47   #378
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Default Re: Triumph India: Sold Bikes in India with fake performance figures!

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Originally Posted by Maibaa View Post
@Jaggu - if you notice I was referring to all other variants from Triumph (apart from ST3).
My bad, the difference in figure is normal. Esp since most of the figures are based on 95+ Ron and ARAI is always based on 91 Ron which makes a difference in readings esp at peak rpms, forget the methods.
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Old 2nd December 2014, 16:25   #379
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Default Re: Triumph India: Sold Bikes in India with fake performance figures!

Update: Triumph starts reaching out

Just got off a call with Triumph rep from India and following points were discussed (nothing new):

- Explanation of what has been sold in India and specs published

- Minor difference in ARAI rating for models from published figures, (except Triple) due to difference in test environment including fuel, air yadayada (understandable)

- Triple model spec different, but from day 1 (grrrrr...)

- Understand expectations have taken a toll and technical team is working out a good resolution in couple of days. Days and not weeks (better be)

- Dealers would be informed and they inturn would contact and discuss further the options

So now i have to wait for dealer to get in touch with me.
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Old 2nd December 2014, 17:39   #380
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Default Re: Triumph India: Sold Bikes in India with fake performance figures!

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Originally Posted by Jaggu View Post
- Understand expectations have taken a toll and technical team is working out a good resolution in couple of days. Days and not weeks (better be)

- Dealers would be informed and they inturn would contact and discuss further the options
Good to hear from them. But this brings me back to my original question.

What the hell were they thinking??

They knew all along that they are selling the Brazilian version here. They knew that they uploaded the EU spec in the site, and I cant quite believe that nobody in the Triumph India's deep secret interiors noticed it until some enthusiasts/customers pointed it out. I will not just buy that.

And now since everybody came to know about this they have their technical team working round the clock for a resolution?? Did I miss something?
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Old 2nd December 2014, 17:58   #381
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Default Re: Triumph India: Sold Bikes in India with fake performance figures!

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Originally Posted by man_of_steel View Post
Good to hear from them. But this brings me back to my original question.

What the hell were they thinking??

They knew all along that they are selling the Brazilian version here. They knew that they uploaded the EU spec in the site, and I cant quite believe that nobody in the Triumph India's deep secret interiors noticed it until some enthusiasts/customers pointed it out. I will not just buy that.

And now since everybody came to know about this they have their technical team working round the clock for a resolution?? Did I miss something?
To your first question , either they are -
1. completely insensitive to accurate figures and what they mean for customers - unlikely .
2. Deliberate misinformation , as in they knew they were misleading customers .
3. They sold a few(10-15) triple , realized that the website due to some oversight had EU figures but out of fear(fear of providing a satisfactory reply to customers and the crowd in general - this is an aggressive brand , last thing they want is a bad publicity within weeks of official launch ) could not arrive at a solution all the while continuing sales with misleading numbers and with each passing day , the situation kept snowballing .


The story as per a previous comment in this thread is it was a review site which forced them into updating the website , they didn't do it on their own . The review crew in question hit a dyno and were (I guess) shocked by the outcome . If this is indeed correct ( I have my doubts because while I recall reading a comment along this line , it hasn't been mentioned since) , I wonder if they would have continued with 106bhp figures if not corrected by a 3rd party . Also I hope overdrive , powerdrift etc take note and hit the dyno or at least check the ARAI certificate from now on .
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Old 2nd December 2014, 19:28   #382
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Default Re: Triumph India: Sold Bikes in India with fake performance figures!

Quote:
Originally Posted by r_nairtvm View Post
Their reply convinced me that they have indeed done a good job in the evaluation.

They told me that this bike was tuned for Sweden standards and as such it had been set for Fuel of 94 Ron plus, as per the system details from ECM and Triumph systems. (My bike was manufactured in UK and was one of the stock destined for Sweden, but got diverted to Doha, Qatar at the shipment stage, I bought the bike from the Qatar dealer - a fact, I knew from the Swedish hand book I got originally with the bike). I hadn't disclosed this to any one in India or in any of my blogs. So the fact Keerthi Triumph knew this showed that they did do a ECM eval

The fact that it showed slight hesitation when I was using non-Shell petrol, would explain the 94 Ron setting

Based on the eval they downloaded the correct tune which would enable 91 Ron an above. The bike was sounding very smooth.
Ram, a long shot here but since speculation is the order of the day with Triumph i thought i'd add some fuel too.

I read this part in your ownership thread sometime back while evaluating the Bonneville. Im guessing yours is the only 'original' 68bhp bonnie in India. Maybe this remap is the reason for the drop to 61 bhp. For me the drop in power would most probably be unnoticed. Did you have some observations?

Can anyone simplify to my non engineering mind what a remap like the one on Ram's bike would actually do. Increase the fuel quantity? Change spark plug firing frequency? I have no clue about this stuff!

Cheers,
Sting
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Old 2nd December 2014, 20:04   #383
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Default Re: Triumph India: Sold Bikes in India with fake performance figures!

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Originally Posted by Sting View Post
Can anyone simplify to my non engineering mind what a remap like the one on Ram's bike would actually do. Increase the fuel quantity? Change spark plug firing frequency? I have no clue about this stuff!

Cheers,
Sting
I too await inputs from experts here.

As per my understanding, the fuel (Ron) input is concerned with the timing of the burn or pre burn process. This would only be one aspect of the "de tune". The detune what we are talking about in the market (specially the StT) would involve other aspects (including hardware) than a mere mapping issue. In other words merely putting a European 'map' will not get the 85 PS bikes back to 106 and vice versa. So hopefully I still have a 68 (keeping my fingers crossed)

On road I haven't noticed any negative aspects of this "re-tune" (at this stage I would like to call that). I have been intending to talk to couple of tuners on this and find out.

The original ecu map has been saved and I can always go back to that

Best Regards & Ride Safe

Ram

Last edited by r_nairtvm : 2nd December 2014 at 20:30.
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Old 2nd December 2014, 20:32   #384
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Default Triumph India: Sold Bikes in India with fake performance figures!

It's quite possible to retune the ECU for different bhp's, if we look at adventure bike like KTM 1190/1290 Ducati Multistrada they have different tune that range from 100bhp to 150/160bhp. The off-road mode retune the bike for max power of 100 bhp while sports/street mode retune the same bike for full 150/160 bhp on KTM Adventure and Super Adventure.

Is there any possibility of similar thing happening on STriple? maybe because of fuel and other environment aspect the bike is tuned differently and can be retuned back to full power but may have too much side effects !

-Pramod

Last edited by pramods : 2nd December 2014 at 20:33.
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Old 2nd December 2014, 20:59   #385
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Default Re: Triumph India: Sold Bikes in India with fake performance figures!

In Triumph Indias case, it is/ was the coverup/ spin doctoring which was more egregious than the original sin.

A plausible sequence of events is like this:
In the frenzy of activity which goes on before a launch, the 106 bhp figure slipped through the cracks. (Believe me, it happens. genuine mistake rather than malafide intent). But then they found that they were selling far more than their projections. (I believe their initial projection was 200 bikes in the first year, and they sold more than 1000.) And then begun the coverup. They would not do anything to upset their applecart.

Regards
Sutripta

PS- The RD dyno graphs are interesting enough to merit their own separate thread. And because of that, really have no place on this thread.

Last edited by Sutripta : 2nd December 2014 at 21:01.
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Old 2nd December 2014, 21:12   #386
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Default Re: Triumph India: Sold Bikes in India with fake performance figures!

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Originally Posted by pramods View Post
Is there any possibility of similar thing happening on STriple? maybe because of fuel and other environment aspect the bike is tuned differently and can be retuned back to full power but may have too much side effects !

-Pramod
Previous post here mentioned the de-tuned models meant for Brazil , Japan etc have different intake/exhaust valve and exhaust system compared to a stock 106bhp machine . ECU map is of course different too .
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Old 2nd December 2014, 21:19   #387
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Default Re: Triumph India: Sold Bikes in India with fake performance figures!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sutripta View Post
In Triumph Indias case, it is/ was the coverup/ spin doctoring which was more egregious than the original sin.

A plausible sequence of events is like this:
In the frenzy of activity which goes on before a launch, the 106 bhp figure slipped through the cracks. (Believe me, it happens. genuine mistake rather than malafide intent). But then they found that they were selling far more than their projections. (I believe their initial projection was 200 bikes in the first year, and they sold more than 1000.) And then begun the coverup. They would not do anything to upset their applecart.

...
I agree with your interpretation of the situation. But what this points to is that the upper management of Triumph Motors India seem to be ethically challenged. They were caught red-handed and cornered and that's why the admission of guilt. More big names trying to squeeze their way out of trouble. Maybe it was the parent company that took the decision to offer the mea culpa...
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Old 2nd December 2014, 22:08   #388
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Default Re: Triumph India: Sold Bikes in India with fake performance figures!

Quote:
Originally Posted by r_nairtvm View Post
I too await inputs from experts here.
===
The original ecu map has been saved and I can always go back to that
The remap if you are referring to, is Indian spec? i personally would not bother much. It would have some minor limiting to the RPM Vs Timing to keep the engine in safe limit. Nothing more than that is needed to go with a conservative or questionable 91 Ron petrol.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pramods View Post
It's quite possible to retune the ECU for different bhp's, if we look at adventure bike like KTM 1190/1290 Ducati Multistrada they have different tune that range from 100bhp to 150/160bhp. T
========
Is there any possibility of similar thing happening on STriple? maybe because of fuel and other environment aspect the bike is tuned differently and can be retuned back to full power but may have too much side effects !

-Pramod
Easy peazy to play around by 20-30% by remaps and maybe minor hardware change like restrictors at intake or exhaust. Here the only confusion is brazil spec shows different cam in parts bin. Are there anymore such crucial parts difference? only Triumph UK can confirm this. Am sure even Indian service engineers might not be aware of this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by basuroy View Post
Previous post here mentioned the de-tuned models meant for Brazil , Japan etc have different intake/exhaust valve and exhaust system compared to a stock 106bhp machine . ECU map is of course different too .
This is from the digging around by another Triumph owner has done and i pursued further and found one more difference in the parts bin that was available. Again is it applicable to 2014 or 2015 Striple? I have no way of confirming now.

EDIT: Difference is Cam (mostly profile), intake box connector to intake (restrictor), exhaust header and map obviously. No where valve is mentioned, that is been a speculation from beginning as far as i know.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sutripta View Post
In Triumph Indias case, it is/ was the coverup/ spin doctoring which was more egregious than the original sin.
After a lot of thought i still can't understand how they went ahead and why heads have not rolled till now??! They are looking at multi million rupee lawsuits! 6 lakh product sold as 9 lakh is no silly thing, even in India! Even a non practising lawyer will have enough sections that can nail these buggers.

Last edited by Jaggu : 2nd December 2014 at 22:10.
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Old 3rd December 2014, 00:27   #389
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I believe the heads will start rolling once the problems are settled. If a problem arises out of this (in the form of lawsuits), they need a person to blame. We can expect a whole top level management (India Operations) change in few days.
Thanks for the information about the difference in parts between the EU and IN models. Jaggu, is the buyback offer still on? If so, are you aware of anyone who has opted for it?
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Old 3rd December 2014, 01:06   #390
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Default Re: Triumph India: Sold Bikes in India with fake performance figures!

The power difference / detune maybe completely explained via a map of the ecu with no change in hardware and yet that may not be the case.

Triumph cannot officially remap to higher tune as this not what they have the ARAI certificate for but they may get the dealers to offer a remap plus exhaust system plus financial compensation package through the dealers.

Taking back the bikes normally the registration and insurance components are not refunded back though they should be.
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