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Old 7th December 2014, 13:16   #406
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Default Re: Triumph India: Sold Bikes in India with fake performance figures!

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Originally Posted by Jaggu View Post
Update: I got a call from Keerthi Triumph Manager a while back, they have invited me next week to sit across and discuss options. Hope discussions match my expectations
With a one to one across the table discussions, the one with better negotiation skills will walk away with the cake while other would be left with a worm in a sandwich situation. This attitude is definitely not going to help Triumph further and would definitely put off future customers.

Solution should be equal and put across to all without such ambiguities. Waiting for the updates from of the discussions for now.
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Old 7th December 2014, 13:17   #407
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Default Re: Triumph India: Sold Bikes in India with fake performance figures!

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Originally Posted by jkdas View Post
Note : All Bonnie's a have the same bhp/torque in India.
I wonder what this Note was for - was it from you Jyothi or was it part of the advert.

Bonnies always had same BHP for all - Std/SE/T100. EU was 68.

Assume the Indian ones would have been 61. Wonder if different models were being touted as having different BHP by some dealers in India

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Originally Posted by Jaggu

Update: I got a call from Keerthi Triumph Manager a while back, they have invited me next week to sit across and discuss options. Hope discussions match my expectations

May be TI itself is trying to understand what could be a viable/acceptable solution.

Best Regards & Ride Safe

Ram

Last edited by r_nairtvm : 7th December 2014 at 13:21.
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Old 7th December 2014, 15:01   #408
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Originally Posted by unk9ja View Post

Solution should be equal and put across to all without such ambiguities. Waiting for the updates from of the discussions for now.

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Originally Posted by Steeroid View Post
This 'sit across and discuss options' doesn't sound too encouraging. It sounds more like a negotiation than the offer of a solution.
I don't see this as being a bad thing necessarily.
A one size fits all approach may not work in this case as each customer may have different requirements. Besides, a solution arrived at without consulting the aggrieved owners could be construed as high handed as well.

While the better negotiator *could* get a better deal, it would be one he values most. Eg. Some may prefer free servicing for a while to the option of an arrows exhaust. Just a case that may arise

Last edited by udainxs : 7th December 2014 at 15:30.
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Old 7th December 2014, 17:30   #409
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Default Re: Triumph India: Sold Bikes in India with fake performance figures!

I had a word with Shoeb from Triumph India this morning explain the current situation and the solution under works/testing at one of dealers.

per inside information and testing by one of Street owners, results looks promising!!! Waiting for final update from Triumph which should be out before end of next week. keeping everything crossed.
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Old 7th December 2014, 19:20   #410
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Default Re: Triumph India: Sold Bikes in India with fake performance figures!

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Originally Posted by DipantS View Post
I don’t think that the issue is being handled by Triumph India with outmost sincerity.
They have a very difficult situation in hand, if this goes legal route it is going to be a big mess. My feel they are treading cautious.

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One of the fellow Street Triple customer was badly abused and ill-treated by Hyderabad dealer last Friday and was repeatedly asked to go to consumer court for solution. This is really mockery of Indian consumers and the entire judicial system where cheaters still believe that they have upper hand and can keep minting money without any issue.
I think this guys needs a good dressing down, he has been creating confusion after confusion and swinging like a drunk monkey. Triumph should seriously put pressure on this guy to focus on resolving issues instead of throwing threats around and getting personal with customers. He might be a big guy, but the courts of this country are much more powerful.

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We have been asked to wait for one more week for any concrete information from Triumph India.
We have been offered same as rest of the country, but they want quick decision from our end hmmm, am still getting into grips of how to react to someone who cheated me royally.

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Originally Posted by Steeroid View Post
This 'sit across and discuss options' doesn't sound too encouraging. It sounds more like a negotiation than the offer of a solution.
A mix of both, they are offering 3 options right now. Told them am not sure, will have to think and get back. I am not in a hurry

Quote:
Originally Posted by unk9ja View Post
With a one to one across the table discussions, the one with better negotiation skills will walk away with the cake while other would be left with a worm in a sandwich situation. This attitude is definitely not going to help Triumph further and would definitely put off future customers.

Solution should be equal and put across to all without such ambiguities. Waiting for the updates from of the discussions for now.

Agree ^ After meeting few other owners, i felt i was the least demanding lol

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Originally Posted by r_nairtvm View Post
May be TI itself is trying to understand what could be a viable/acceptable solution.
Not sure of this, if these are feelers. It was more like these are 3 options, you can take or .... Anyways i have still not made up my mind. Things got ugly at Hyderabad due to the limited and unfair options thrown.

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Originally Posted by udainxs View Post
I don't see this as being a bad thing necessarily.
A one size fits all approach may not work in this case as each customer may have different requirements. Besides, a solution arrived at without consulting the aggrieved owners could be construed as high handed as well.

While the better negotiator *could* get a better deal, it would be one he values most. Eg. Some may prefer free servicing for a while to the option of an arrows exhaust. Just a case that may arise
True in this case customers expectation range from UK spec bike to Complete refund then to Complete cash free upgrade to nearest model.

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Originally Posted by DipantS View Post
I had a word with Shoeb from Triumph India this morning explain the current situation and the solution under works/testing at one of dealers.
This is where i was not very happy, dont tell me that no one in Triumph motorcycle knows what needs to be done?! I was told testing was already done in UK and its just a simple job that needs execution.

Quote:
per inside information and testing by one of Street owners, results looks promising!!! Waiting for final update from Triumph which should be out before end of next week. keeping everything crossed.
And when i heard this yesterday that people are sitting and trying out, i was little disappointed. A responsible company would just send parts across and say hey this is it, just do x, y, z and here are the results.

Ok i did a hell lot of web crawling since today morning. So this is what i found, now i will not accept any technical solution without proof that these changes are taken care off with genuine replacement parts and no jugaad techniques.

Difference no 1: Intake aka Transition, Airbox to Headstock. Brazil spec part No: T2200974, needs to be replaced with UK spec part No: T2200984. What does it do? It chokes the inlet of airbox!

This is the part siting on air box:

Triumph India: Sold Bikes in India with fake performance figures!-caixafiltro.jpg

Brazil spec has only one of the quadrant open. Ignore the second one open in the image, this was from work in progress pic by someone in brazilian forum.

Triumph India: Sold Bikes in India with fake performance figures!-j5st.jpg

Whereas UK Specs gets this! Fully open.

Triumph India: Sold Bikes in India with fake performance figures!-20131217_21.09.27.png

So what does this mean, you can take in 3 times air volume and along with tweak in fuel mapping will give huge boost to bhp across a wide range of rev. Peak power will definitely improve by good 10 to 15%.

Second major difference, obviously the exhaust. This starts from header to the end silencer can. Brazil part No: T2202079, UK spec No: T2202030 and Silencer brazil part No: T2202053, UK spec part No: T2202040.

This is where right now some debate is happening, and i still have not got any conclusive evidence that the parts are same in Indian bike as UK spec. Which i doubt, why would a company bring 85 bhp brazilian restricted version bike and then give UK spec exhaust alone??? Yes fit an arrow end can will take care of silencer restriction and might tally to 100+ bhp, but that aint stock. I would want a stock silencer and map that makes 100+ bhp and then add an arrow later if i want to squeeze out few more at around 110 <greedy yes iam>

Third major difference: Of Course all these changes looks simple but has to be complemented by remaps or the bike will run super lean and start overheating and what not. But what i understood is once these mods are done you get a 106 bhp non-neutered Striple.

Legality of doing it is same as running a performance exhaust and intake in your street car and any competent mechanic with tools and triumph remap software can execute the job. Need to check if these can be added to the papers legally with modification fee at RTO level.

What one dealer has tried out is just removed the inlet issue and added the arrow end can and maps. Already heard difference is good, but don't be fooled. This is just 50% of what was originally taken away from you me.

Pics credit

Last edited by Jaggu : 7th December 2014 at 19:21.
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Old 7th December 2014, 20:25   #411
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Default Re: Triumph India: Sold Bikes in India with fake performance figures!

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Originally Posted by Jaggu View Post
After meeting few other owners, i felt i was the least demanding lol
Or most mature!

Quote:
This is where i was not very happy, dont tell me that no one in Triumph motorcycle knows what needs to be done?! I was told testing was already done in UK and its just a simple job that needs execution.
Oh they know.
If I were Triumph, my question would be As a company, which is the lesser of two evils: illegality wrt customers, or illegality wrt GoI.
Also Triumph UK must be asking themselves what the hell is going on in India.

Quote:
Ok i did a hell lot of web crawling since today morning. So this is what i found, now i will not accept any technical solution without proof that these changes are taken care off with genuine replacement parts and no jugaad techniques.

Difference no 1: Intake aka Transition, Airbox to Headstock. Brazil spec part No: T2200974, needs to be replaced with UK spec part No: T2200984. What does it do? It chokes the inlet of airbox!

This is the part siting on air box:

Attachment 1316065

Brazil spec has only one of the quadrant open. Ignore the second one open in the image, this was from work in progress pic by someone in brazilian forum.

Attachment 1316066

Whereas UK Specs gets this! Fully open.

Attachment 1316067

So what does this mean, you can take in 3 times air volume and along with tweak in fuel mapping will give huge boost to bhp across a wide range of rev. Peak power will definitely improve by good 10 to 15%.

Second major difference, obviously the exhaust. This starts from header to the end silencer can. Brazil part No: T2202079, UK spec No: T2202030 and Silencer brazil part No: T2202053, UK spec part No: T2202040.

This is where right now some debate is happening, and i still have not got any conclusive evidence that the parts are same in Indian bike as UK spec. Which i doubt, why would a company bring 85 bhp brazilian restricted version bike and then give UK spec exhaust alone??? Yes fit an arrow end can will take care of silencer restriction and might tally to 100+ bhp, but that aint stock. I would want a stock silencer and map that makes 100+ bhp and then add an arrow later if i want to squeeze out few more at around 110 <greedy yes iam>

Third major difference: Of Course all these changes looks simple but has to be complemented by remaps or the bike will run super lean and start overheating and what not. But what i understood is once these mods are done you get a 106 bhp non-neutered Striple.
Any basis to all the talk about different cams and heads/ valves etc?
Is the redline for the two bikes the same? If yes, what about gearing?

Regards
Sutripta

Last edited by Samurai : 7th December 2014 at 21:16. Reason: Rule#2
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Old 7th December 2014, 20:55   #412
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Default Re: Triumph India: Sold Bikes in India with fake performance figures!

I am waiting for Triumph to provide technical documentation along with the part numbers, which should be able to clear most of the doubts around the solution.

I had same query about testing but never received any convincing answer from any Triumph representative, only thing I know is it was worked by Triumph UK engineers. I am fine as long as Triumph provides a very reliable solution along with lifetime warranty and support.
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Old 7th December 2014, 21:10   #413
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Default Re: Triumph India: Sold Bikes in India with fake performance figures!

I am a little confused about this situation.

Would not tampering with the bike in any way render it illegal for use on public roads. There is nothing that Triumph can do to fix this.

Why are we wasting our time when the law is quite clear. Altering specifications is illegal.

The only thing Triumph can legally do is apologize and buy back these bikes.
Or
They return money and add some goodies to make up for their deceit.

Fixing the bikes to make them generate more power is ILLEGAL. No way any company can do that.


And a simple way to find damages.
((OTR paid for the bike) / (Original published BHP) ) * (revised correct BHP).

I think it comes a little over 2 lakhs per bike.

Would this not be a fair and simple solution.

Last edited by bblost : 7th December 2014 at 21:15.
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Old 7th December 2014, 21:35   #414
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Default Re: Triumph India: Sold Bikes in India with fake performance figures!

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Originally Posted by Sutripta View Post
Any basis to all the talk about different cams and heads/ valves etc?
Is the redline for the two bikes the same? If yes, what about gearing?

Regards
Sutripta
Nope parts bin shows rest of the parts are same. Redline with ECU is just a number, Code 6 just re-mapped a friends 390 last week

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Originally Posted by DipantS View Post
I had same query about testing but never received any convincing answer from any Triumph representative, only thing I know is it was worked by Triumph UK engineers. I am fine as long as Triumph provides a very reliable solution along with lifetime warranty and support.
I was believing it, but now with the denial of exhaust bit. I am not at all taking it.

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I am a little confused about this situation.

Would not tampering with the bike in any way render it illegal for use on public roads. There is nothing that Triumph can do to fix this.
Imran a big grey area this is, then any car running with a performance filter is a grey area. ^^ I mentioned this already.

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Why are we wasting our time when the law is quite clear. Altering specifications is illegal.
Not really, there is a clause to modify at RTO level. How much and what all is the only question.


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And a simple way to find damages.
((OTR paid for the bike) / (Original published BHP) ) * (revised correct BHP).

I think it comes a little over 2 lakhs per bike.

Would this not be a fair and simple solution.
I told em give me the money i spent buying and take the keys NOW! Seriously i did not pay 9.16 lakhs for this crap! I had to sell another beautiful machine for this headache.

And Imran it would 2.33 Lakhs for 9.16 i paid, plus compensate me for cheating me of my dream and i will let them go off at 4 lakhs? Fair enough? But let us see....
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Old 7th December 2014, 21:44   #415
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Default Re: Triumph India: Sold Bikes in India with fake performance figures!

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Nope parts bin shows rest of the parts are same. Redline with ECU is just a number.
Actually a bit more to it than that , but really OT for this discussion.

Regards
Sutripta
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Old 7th December 2014, 21:53   #416
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Default Re: Triumph India: Sold Bikes in India with fake performance figures!

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Imran a big grey area this is, then any car running with a performance filter is a grey area. ^^ I mentioned this already.
Not really.
Lets take a Car X that is modified. Only the owner and the tuner knows this.
If the owner is smart then he can keep it like a sleeper.

Can the owner of a Street Triple do this. Every cop knows this story by now and I am sure watching the outcome.

Why not. Its a juicy low hanging fruit.

Quote:

Not really, there is a clause to modify at RTO level. How much and what all is the only question.
Something that Triumph must do at a National Level.

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i will let them go off at 4 lakhs? Fair enough? But let us see....
Sound almost fair to me. You still end up with a broken dream and money is a poor bandaid.
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Old 7th December 2014, 21:56   #417
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Default Re: Triumph India: Sold Bikes in India with fake performance figures!

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Originally Posted by Sutripta View Post
Actually a bit more to it than that , but really OT for this discussion.

Regards
Sutripta
I know sir, but nothing to worry too much right now. First is the mechanical bit (that itself is far off), unless that is upgraded one can't pull out the full potential. I am fairly confident from info i gathered that this vehicle can pull 100 plus stock and maybe even 110 plus with arrows.

Now why would i want to do a 106 with arrows? Ofcourse the wheel bhp will be ~10-15% depending on how we test it (without corrections). Right now its all theory, give me the parts and i really would love to try out each step and document the gains old technical keeda (itch)...

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Not really.
Lets take a Car X that is modified. Only the owner and the tuner knows this.
If the owner is smart then he can keep it like a sleeper.
Why would i want Triumph to do this that is all i would like to say for now.

And dream part! IT SUKZZZZZ!!

Last edited by Jaggu : 7th December 2014 at 21:58.
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Old 7th December 2014, 22:01   #418
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Default Re: Triumph India: Sold Bikes in India with fake performance figures!

A compensation should be heavily in favour of the customer. Even at 5 lacs it is only 5 crore which is GBP 500k for a 100 bikes. This is clearly not a large sum for the screw up a multinational of this size has done.

Also, im quite sure the UK headoffice is part of this lie. It is nigh impossible for a UK company to be giving so much control to the start up in India. The Marketing Head is in UK, Customer Service Head is in UK, im guessing so is the production head. Theres virtually no customisation on the motorcycles. These are classically 'lift and shift' products. All signs of a highly centralised organisation.

What i still havent got my head around is why on earth would they do it.
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Old 8th December 2014, 00:18   #419
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A mix of both, they are offering 3 options right now. Told them am not sure, will have to think and get back. I am not in a hurry
If I may ask, what are the 3 options that they are giving?

Pardon me if they've already been listed before. I din't come across them
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Old 8th December 2014, 01:17   #420
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Default Re: Triumph India: Sold Bikes in India with fake performance figures!

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After meeting few other owners, i felt i was the least demanding lol
That depends on what the options were. If they're amenable to 'buying out' the others by offering upgrades of hardware or freebies or even free upgrade to next models, and you are Mr.I-want-my-106bhp - you might actually be the most unreasonable because that may be the only thing they cannot actually do. The others may cost the company a bit, but that shouldn't be a huge issue as there really isn't a very large number of customers involved.

They may be able to buy-back or upgrade for free - what if they cannot offer UK-specs at all? Then you would be the most unreasonable, wouldn't you?

Take the money and get out, if you can.
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