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Old 13th December 2014, 22:15   #481
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Default Re: Triumph India: Sold Bikes in India with fake performance figures!

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Originally Posted by gthang View Post
Yes. They screwed up. BUT they are making amends.

For our Superbike market to mature, we need more bikes and more brands. Wishing for the death of a brand in India is extremely counterproductive and does not take into account the fates of hundreds of owners.
I dont see why Triumph should be excused for their intentional"error". Do you think this will be a mature suberbike market with brands dealing like this and getting away with it?
And taking action on a brand for not coming up clean to what it promised, is in no way counterproductive to the Superbike market in India. India is much bigger than Triumph.
Taking action will only clarify to all the others, that the Indian customer be treated with equal respect, even though we are small but growing market with no superbiking history !

As far as amends are concerned, I haven't read of any amends by Triumph, atleast no credible amends have been reported on thsi thread or elsewhere!! Please direct me to anything I may have missed.

Cheers.
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Old 13th December 2014, 23:31   #482
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Default Re: Triumph India: Sold Bikes in India with fake performance figures!

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Originally Posted by mobike008 View Post
Jaggu, sad to hear your friends story. Thats blatant cheating by the "Dealer" and not "Triumph"

Looks like both Triumph and Dealers are hand in glove and know this situation ( there is no way the dealership cannot know as how will they receive the vehicles without the ARAI certifications?)

Now come one, dont tell me each and every dealer in the country has forgotten to even glance at the certificate for the last 9+ months?

Anyway, this Triumph saga has lost its steam (atleast in Hyderabad) and Triumph owners (yes, including the Street Tripple owners) are enjoying dealership proposed sunday rides and seemed to have forgotten that they were cheated by them in the first place and havent given them a solution yet
Does the ARAI certificate get shared with dealers ? Is it a legally required document demanded by the RTO for registration ? If so, then the dealers would have had their copied well before sales start and that would point to dealers being guilty of fraud too.


As for riding with Triumph organized rides - as they say, no point crying over spilt milk! You may lost some horsepower, but the bike is still rideable and no sense simply letting it gather dust, when you have probably made new biker friends, so why not make the most out of it and enjoy with friends, maybe rant about Triumph over food ?

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Originally Posted by abhinav.s View Post
Exactly my feelings!! Bonneville was my dream bike for many years and would have bought it a few years down the line.
I understand your sentiment, but if that "dream" bike has no worthy rivals, current or expected, why decline your dream for this alone? I don't think Bonnie class of riders are that hp-centric, as compared to supersport riders for whom hp is not just performance but also bragging rights?

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Originally Posted by A_v_i View Post
Very likely. Dealers started saying that the moment the controversy broke, that only the bikes coming next year are detuned and what not. As luck would have it, my final payment got done and RTO tax paid, the day this news broke, else i would have definitely put the purchase on hold. Didn't make sense to leave the bike with the dealer after paying all the money and tax.
Have you been contacted since, made an offer or at least told you will be ? It's been long enough, and if Triumph India is still dilly-dallying , hoping it will pass and their boo-boo will be forgotten, forgiven , then they should not be let off so easy. I wonder if Triumph UK has got wind of what's been happening here. If they have, they damn well should pull up their socks and swing to action before it snowballs. Maybe it won't affect them internationally, but now that the matter is online in some foreign forums, they should now have gotten wind of it.


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Originally Posted by gthang View Post
We all know that Triumph India has been having management issues from day one. With some high profile resignations, etc., etc.
This detuned fiasco is no doubt an human error, and they are trying their best to come up with excuses. Typical knee jerk reaction.
I'm quite sure this is a result of Triumph UK appointing big shots for Triumph India and then letting them have their way, unmonitored, unfettered , "because we Indian managers know how to deal with Indian customers and Indian market".

I doubt they made such a blunder in Brazil about stating EU spec power. Waiting to see if/when heads roll at Triumph India.
Oh, and how about hiring some serious biker dudes instead of suits for whom selling bikes requires the same set of skills as selling biscuits ?


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Originally Posted by gthang View Post
For our Superbike market to mature, we need more bikes and more brands. Wishing for the death of a brand in India is extremely counterproductive and does not take into account the fates of hundreds of owners.
Yes, but more than that, it punishes existing owners, who bought the bike keeping in mind formal/official manufacturer support. If we wanted to depend on Munna-mechanic at some Babloo superbike-wala , we'd have bought one of those used Honda CBR600s.



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Originally Posted by gthang View Post
For those who love motorcycles, this setback should not be an issue, especially when an option to bring back to 106 from Triumph exists.

For those who bought the bike for the image and is extremely upset that Triumph lied to them, (Forget the fact that many, including myself, could not tell the difference from riding the bikes), this could be a deal breaker.
The issue is lot of owners were hoping to put on Arrows and a remap and hot 115hp from the 106 promised. Now that road is a no-entry, it will leave a lot of ST3 owners understandably aggravated.

Since we dont' use all the bike's power on a test ride - unlike journos, we don't get them all day and have a test-track as venue, just a few minutes on public roads, so one's not going to redline the bike and find out those 106 horses were really 79.

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Originally Posted by gthang View Post
I hope that people can see past the human errors and see the bikes for what they are.

And I sincerely wish that Ducati would come back to India as well. More the merrier, I say.
Yes, and MV Agusta too. But practically, there's not enough of a market for all, so we will continue to see annual sales in a few hundreds or low thousands, at exorbitant prices.



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Originally Posted by DipantS View Post
Plus, most of riders here are mature enough to keep business and pleasure separate. Rides are for pure fund and pleasure and it doesn't matter who are we riding with and I believe everyone clearly understands it. When it comes to business, we want best of products and services, whatever we are paying for and same has been made clear to everyone involved.
Yes, while I would be very very upset if I were St3 owner, the ground reality is you have the bike, it's way faster than 99% of the other bikes and unless Triumph said they will buy back the bike, stop riding immediately - it makes no sense to let it gather dust while you rant and rave at Triumph. If life gives you few lemons less (or more?) , you still make lemonade !

Last edited by Ricci : 13th December 2014 at 23:36.
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Old 14th December 2014, 01:04   #483
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Default Re: Triumph India: Sold Bikes in India with fake performance figures!

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Originally Posted by gthang View Post
Forget the fact that many, including myself, could not tell the difference from riding the bikes).
Forget regular joes mate, not even the auto jounos who spent endless hours testing these bikes and with access to all kind of fancy equipment n gadgetry; never suspected a thing!!!

There is no way any rider, no matter how experienced would have been able to tell the difference by the "feel" during a test ride lasting a few minutes

Triumph did wrong. They need to fix it. Hope the owners are able to gain a vice like grip on triumph s jewels n then, squeeze HARD. These guys need to pay. Period!
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Old 14th December 2014, 08:43   #484
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Default Re: Triumph India: Sold Bikes in India with fake performance figures!

Yes. An error was made. It was identified and is being rectified.

What more do you guys need? A personal apology from Mr. Bloor?

How and why would you think that Triumph is taking people for a ride? What did they gain from selling ONE particular model that is detuned?

Odd that this sentiment is not from Triumph owners.

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Originally Posted by o.D View Post
Its a deliberate human error and what is the justification wrt intent.
An error is an error. What makes you think that it was intentional?

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Originally Posted by jaysmokesleaves View Post
I dont see why Triumph should be excused for their intentional"error". Do you think this will be a mature suberbike market with brands dealing like this and getting away with it?

As far as amends are concerned, I haven't read of any amends by Triumph, atleast no credible amends have been reported on thsi thread or elsewhere!! Please direct me to anything I may have missed.

Cheers.
Again, where are you guys getting this "Intentional" part?

If you are a Triumph Street Triple owner, you would have been contacted by them. Not everything is on this thread.

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Originally Posted by Ricci View Post

The issue is lot of owners were hoping to put on Arrows and a remap and hot 115hp from the 106 promised. Now that road is a no-entry, it will leave a lot of ST3 owners understandably aggravated.
Really? Owners were expecting 115? Quite optimistic to say the least.

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Originally Posted by Urban_Nomad View Post
Triumph did wrong. They need to fix it. Hope the owners are able to gain a vice like grip on triumph s jewels n then, squeeze HARD. These guys need to pay. Period!
Wonder how that goes. Threads of Skoda come to mind.

Wish more people were concerned about the dynamics, fit and finish, and joy of riding motorcycles, rather than trying to teach a lesson.

Cheers

Ride Safe.
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Old 14th December 2014, 18:05   #485
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Default Re: Triumph India: Sold Bikes in India with fake performance figures!

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Originally Posted by gthang View Post
Yes. An error was made. It was identified and is being rectified.
As a Striple owner, i would sure be interested in hearing what you think is being rectified.

I have a simple ask from Triumph India, give me the bike i paid for (and what they represented being sold to me) and frankly they can't do that.
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Old 14th December 2014, 18:19   #486
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Default Re: Triumph India: Sold Bikes in India with fake performance figures!

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Originally Posted by A_v_i View Post
As a Striple owner, i would sure be interested in hearing what you think is being rectified.

I have a simple ask from Triumph India, give me the bike i paid for (and what they represented being sold to me) and frankly they can't do that.
If you haven't been contacted by Triumph yet, please get in touch with your dealer.

I believe one of the options put forward is just that. To bring it back to 106, albeit, using Arrow slip-ons.

If you don't want to go that route, you could order the unrestricted airbox restrictor (or cut holes yourself), and order a regular exhaust end can. I believe the monetary compensation being offered will more than cover that.

My friend, who bought the Street Triple from Chennai, has been offered 3 options on fixing this issue, and I felt it was just.

Cheers

Ride Safe.
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Old 14th December 2014, 18:26   #487
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Default Re: Triumph India: Sold Bikes in India with fake performance figures!

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Originally Posted by gthang View Post
I believe one of the options put forward is just that. To bring it back to 106, albeit, using Arrow slip-ons.
Everyone has been contacted with the same offers, including me. Without going into details of the 106BHP option (because it might become a sensitive topic in the future for the owners who opt for it, i am sure your friend can brief you on the details), i don't think it is a very fair deal.

I will most likely opt for the upgrade, not because it is a fair option but because i as an existing owner don't have very many choices.
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Old 14th December 2014, 18:33   #488
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Default Re: Triumph India: Sold Bikes in India with fake performance figures!

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Originally Posted by GTO View Post
The only other similar case I can think of is when Fiat carelessly forgot to recalibrate the Palio's speedometer to account for a change in tyre size. Hence, the speed & fuel efficiency readings were all wrong for owners. Now that was an honest mistake.
I think there is more similarity to the case of Honda, where they seems to have 'missed' to mention paddle shifts among the variants grades - leading to members assuming that paddle shifts are standard for the 4th generation Honda City. As with the Triumph episode, this was brought to light by a team-bhp'ian, three months after our official review was published. Some of the members dropped their SV CVT bookings, some shifted to other variants, while some others opted to take delivery since they had been on the waiting list for long. I think this mistake is present on their website even now, misleading those who don't visit our forums!

However, Triumph is a lot worse where they have not only forgotten to update clear specs anywhere, but clearly went ahead and displayed misleading specs - pure cheating IMO.

Last edited by CrAzY dRiVeR : 14th December 2014 at 18:42.
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Old 14th December 2014, 18:52   #489
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Default Re: Triumph India: Sold Bikes in India with fake performance figures!

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Originally Posted by A_v_i View Post

I will most likely opt for the upgrade, not because it is a fair option but because i as an existing owner don't have very many choices.
I thought you had 3 choices.

The monetary compensation offered should more than cover all the parts required for bringing it back to 106, including the inlet and exhaust camshafts (if they are different, but doubtful, since the headers seems regular market). I'm sure Triumph will change it for you free.
You have an option to get exactly what you paid for, plus some change.

Did you need more?

Cheers

Ride Safe.

Last edited by gthang : 14th December 2014 at 19:15. Reason: typo
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Old 14th December 2014, 20:57   #490
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Default Re: Triumph India: Sold Bikes in India with fake performance figures!

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Originally Posted by gthang View Post

Really? Owners were expecting 115? Quite optimistic to say the least.
Just curious: you or someone else could clarify?

1) For a 106 bhp striple if one adds the Arrows what is the rough revised bhp figure?
2) There was a dyno chart posted somewhere of the 79 bhp striple testing at about 100 bhp with arrows a gain of 21 bhp?
3) While I understand it cannot be all linear but am curious about 1 above assuming 2 above is true?

Disclaimer am not a biker presently let alone a triumph owner but intend to get back into 500-1000 cc biking via a cruiser or relaxed city bike or two within the next year if family allows so following these threads actively and Triumphs are attractive - were more so before this story broke out.

Last edited by ACM : 14th December 2014 at 20:59.
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Old 14th December 2014, 21:36   #491
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Default Re: Triumph India: Sold Bikes in India with fake performance figures!

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Just curious: you or someone else could clarify?

1) For a 106 bhp striple if one adds the Arrows what is the rough revised bhp figure?
2) There was a dyno chart posted somewhere of the 79 bhp striple testing at about 100 bhp with arrows a gain of 21 bhp?
3) While I understand it cannot be all linear but am curious about 1 above assuming 2 above is true?
The Arrows can only add 3-4hp , but they weigh 10-12kg less (or even more , depending on which bike - heard 25kg saving for the 2 pipe Bonnie). The dyno is a bit of an urban legend, some claimed later it was with Arrow and remap, and not the stock 79PS Street Triple.

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Originally Posted by CrAzY dRiVeR View Post
I think there is more similarity to the case of Honda, where they seems to have 'missed' to mention paddle shifts among the variants grades.

However, Triumph is a lot worse where they have not only forgotten to update clear specs anywhere, but clearly went ahead and displayed misleading specs - pure cheating IMO.
Yes, exactly. Yamaha did something similar but of lower consequence, read below - and still offered to buy back the bikes.

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Originally Posted by A_v_i View Post
Everyone has been contacted with the same offers, including me. Without going into details of the 106BHP option (because it might become a sensitive topic in the future for the owners who opt for it, i am sure your friend can brief you on the details), i don't think it is a very fair deal.
Have you been asked to gag/refrain from letting the offer be public ? What I gather is they will offer the Arrows, de-restricted airbox.

And do they plan to offer this for future customers too, I figure not , it will be a paid option since now they have the updated specs on the site. Which btw has been revised again, with minor changes - the Detuna goes from 118PS to 118.5PS at 12304rpm (how specific!).

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Originally Posted by gthang View Post
Yes. An error was made. It was identified and is being rectified.

What more do you guys need? A personal apology from Mr. Bloor?

How and why would you think that Triumph is taking people for a ride? What did they gain from selling ONE particular model that is detuned?

Odd that this sentiment is not from Triumph owners.

Really? Owners were expecting 115? Quite optimistic to say the least.
That 115hp was simply a ballpark figure, not literal target or such. I said so because some St3 owners mentioned the desire to mod the bike more horses, via the Arrow+remap route - the crux of the issue being they expected a baseline of 106PS and not 79.

As for the previously quoted part - c'mon, owners and potential owners are going to be upset. While some do go overboard in their rant, it's a fair expectation that Triumph come up with both a solution to give the bike as they advertised, and a public apology is well-deserved.

Yamaha did something similar in the past - they advertised their R6 has revlimited at 17000RPM ; when indepedently tests, it was found to be overstated with actual figure being 15500. What did Yamaha do ? They offered to buy back the R6 from dissatisfied customers. The power output was not the issue, still the same power but different redline/rev limit. For just a calibration error in the tachometer which somehow got past their checks.

Illusionary horsepower - producing less than advertised horsepower, is a more severe loss, IMO, than a lower than advertised rev limit.
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Old 14th December 2014, 22:49   #492
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Default Re: Triumph India: Sold Bikes in India with fake performance figures!

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What exactly do you mean????

Regards
Sutripta
Its a lighter way of saying the statement sounds exactly like what a dealership could have made.
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Old 14th December 2014, 23:02   #493
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Default Re: Triumph India: Sold Bikes in India with fake performance figures!

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That 115hp was simply a ballpark figure, not literal target or such. I said so because some St3 owners mentioned the desire to mod the bike more horses, via the Arrow+remap route - the crux of the issue being they expected a baseline of 106PS and not 79.
So, what exactly is different in the bike?
1. Restricted airbox. Nothing a sharp blade can't fix.
2. Restricted exhaust. Option to switch to Arrow or buy stock Euro market exhaust.
3. Camshafts. Not confirmed since no one has opened their engine to check yet. You can change that as well for the money being offered.

So, now you have a Street Triple as promised with baseline of 106.

If the Indian bikes have no camshaft change, why would the owners not get the same bump in output with an unrestricted airbox and Arrow?

Not sure I understand the disappointment you are talking about.

Cheers

Ride Safe.

Last edited by gthang : 14th December 2014 at 23:03. Reason: Edit
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Old 14th December 2014, 23:13   #494
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Default Re: Triumph India: Sold Bikes in India with fake performance figures!

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Originally Posted by gthang View Post
So, what exactly is different in the bike?
1. Restricted airbox. Nothing a sharp blade can't fix.
2. Restricted exhaust. Option to switch to Arrow or buy stock Euro market exhaust.
3. Camshafts. Not confirmed since no one has opened their engine to check yet. You can change that as well for the money being offered.

So, now you have a Street Triple as promised with baseline of 106.
The EU exhaust isn't being sold here, since it doesn't meet the noise emission regulation, I'm told. I don't know if Triumph will import those as part of the deal for St3 owners, since they're offering Arrows. This will bring the power to 106hp with a remap+Arrow+airbox, as Jaggu seems to be have been told. My point was, there will be some who expected 106hp out of the box, then get some more via a remap+Arrow.

Arrows being aftermarket pipes but sold by the Triumph dealers as official accessories, the question really is, is it within India's noise regulations? Other brands get aftermarket pipes from 3rd parties, not official dealers.
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Old 14th December 2014, 23:19   #495
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Default Re: Triumph India: Sold Bikes in India with fake performance figures!

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Originally Posted by gthang View Post
So, what exactly is different in the bike?
1. Restricted airbox. Nothing a sharp blade can't fix.
2. Restricted exhaust. Option to switch to Arrow or buy stock Euro market exhaust.
3. Camshafts. Not confirmed since no one has opened their engine to check yet. You can change that as well for the money being offered.

So, now you have a Street Triple as promised with baseline of 106.
Is the bike still street legal after these modifications.

If god forbid there is an accident, won't the insurance company automatically cancel the coverage?
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