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Old 16th December 2014, 15:29   #541
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Default Re: Triumph India: Sold Bikes in India with fake performance figures!

All those who feel the 1.5L offered by Triumph is satisfactory, won't the fall in resale value of the STripple due to all these incidents be robbing money out of the deal again when the owners upgrade?

A used bike buyer would now consider it as a 106hp bike at the time of resale? Or would it be forced to sell at rates closer to Ninja 650? And if it's considered 106hp- would it fetch closer to the rates of the Z800 since it was anyways modified later at dealer level to 106 hp?
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Old 16th December 2014, 16:23   #542
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Default Re: Triumph India: Sold Bikes in India with fake performance figures!

I am yet to see real owner claiming that Triumph offered him 106 BHP upgrade with 1.5 L worth of accessories voucher....
Jaggu have you heard anything similar from Triumph?
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Old 16th December 2014, 16:25   #543
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Default Re: Triumph India: Sold Bikes in India with fake performance figures!

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Originally Posted by shan_ned View Post
What I would like to hear is - what was their initial response to the individual owners once the issue became public ? I understand it was a goof-up, but what was their reaction after that ?
========== I wish the existing owners good luck and success in getting a good deal.
They did contact few of the Street Triple owner, but overall they could have done it better, faster and more transparent in the first place.

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Originally Posted by CrAzY dRiVeR View Post
All those who feel the 1.5L offered by Triumph is satisfactory, won't the fall in resale value of the STripple due to all these incidents be robbing money out of the deal again when the owners upgrade?

A used bike buyer would now consider it as a 106hp bike at the time of resale? Or would it be forced to sell at rates closer to Ninja 650? And if it's considered 106hp- would it fetch closer to the rates of the Z800 since it was anyways modified later at dealer level to 106 hp?
1- Moment a vehicle is sold 15-20% price drops. PS Drop or not this would happen. Unless you are in this fad of replacing bikes every 6 months to 1 year, resale is not an issue. More than that apart from some sharks, things don't work like this in second hand market, it might be just the opposite in this case (point 4).

2- Re-sale is bad for most of such premium products, esp in the long run. Realistically no one buys these bikes expecting resale.

3- No offence but even a 85 ps Street is far far ahead of Ninja 650, even Ninja owners who have ridden the bike admit to it.

4- Heard of RD 350 HT Vs LT and how lot of people made money using HT during resale i foresee a premium tag for 106 tunes in the future, would be an understatement?

So all these are points that one can debate over. Only valid gripe is Triumph should have been more transparent with figures from day 1. If there was a slip, should have owned it up and resolved it better. Rest all is just debate sake, will have 100,000 colors to it.

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Originally Posted by Ajaybiz View Post
I am yet to see real owner claiming that Triumph offered him 106 BHP upgrade with 1.5 L worth of accessories voucher....
Jaggu have you heard anything similar from Triumph?
Yes they are settling with Street Owners, i have signed acceptance of offer too.

Last edited by Jaggu : 16th December 2014 at 16:27.
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Old 16th December 2014, 16:40   #544
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Default Re: Triumph India: Sold Bikes in India with fake performance figures!

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Originally Posted by Jaggu View Post
sent emails to individual customers, again clarifying what happened.
Not to nitpick, but i have not received any email till date from Triumph India or the dealer clarifying the issue. I presume you got one, because you wrote directly to their customer service.
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Old 16th December 2014, 16:56   #545
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Default Re: Triumph India: Sold Bikes in India with fake performance figures!

Good to see things are moving in a (generally) positive direction, although the following questions still seem unanswered:

1. Why is the Street Triple still selling at the original price? What's the company's plan for people who wanted to buy it in the near future, but now absolutely can't?

2. Why are the discussions only happening behind closed doors, that too with only the Striple owners? In my opinion, the action plan from Triumph's side should be pretty straight forward: "Get our stuff together, give people what they paid for, and rebuild the brand image". This action plan shouldn't need such long-stretched discussions, away from public view.

3. Triumph themselves admitted a number of other bikes were detuned (as small as it may have been). Have we accepted the reason for that power drop is ARAI's testing procedures, or it that also a genuine case of Triumph faking their performance figures but then ignoring them completely?

I apologize if the comparison may seem harsh, but it feels like Triumph UK is treating Indian bikers as second class hobos. Here's what they have done so far in chronological order:

1. They first blatantly try to fake their performance figures for about a year(human error or otherwise).

2. They then take their own sweet time in giving the tiniest of responses, which was frankly patronizing and arrogant.

3. They then wait even longer, then start contacting a small percentage of the affected parties, inviting them to private meetings.

4. All of this time, their social media postings don't give a single inkling of the giant storm that's going on.

The attitude can be likened to Triumph UK getting reports of fraud in India, totally ignoring them, then trying their best to do as little as possible to fix them temporarily.

PS: I'm NOT a Triumph owner, or even remotely related to any aggrieved party, if that makes any difference.

Last edited by RiderZone : 16th December 2014 at 16:59.
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Old 16th December 2014, 17:06   #546
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Default Re: Triumph India: Sold Bikes in India with fake performance figures!

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Originally Posted by A_v_i View Post
Not to nitpick, but i have not received any email till date from Triumph India or the dealer clarifying the issue. I presume you got one, because you wrote directly to their customer service.
Quote:
Originally Posted by RiderZone View Post
3. They then wait even longer, then start contacting a small percentage of the affected parties, inviting them to private meetings.
I thought Triumph would have done their best after their goof up, but the above two posts confirm the other way. Well, selecting only a small percentage is unacceptable in my opinion. They should have contacted all the owners. I am sorry to say this - The alternate word for Triumph is dishonesty.

Last edited by shan_ned : 16th December 2014 at 17:11.
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Old 16th December 2014, 17:46   #547
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Default Re: Triumph India: Sold Bikes in India with fake performance figures!

Quote:
Originally Posted by A_v_i View Post
Not to nitpick, but i have not received any email till date from Triumph India or the dealer clarifying the issue. I presume you got one, because you wrote directly to their customer service.
I never received any email or letter before i signed, coz i shot the email before any of this went ballistic. Emails were sent to people who had raised concerns later i guess. I referred to these since i am aware of its existence and while responding to apology, rather terming it NOT as an apology.

A_v_i When did you deliver your bike and did you reach out to dealer enquiring about this? Atleast in BLR dealer has reached out to Striple owners, even to some who replied "why are you offering me all this, i am perfectly fine with the bike" as clueless as possible owners were

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiderZone View Post
Good to see things are moving in a (generally) positive direction, although the following questions still seem unanswered:

1. Why is the Street Triple still selling at the original price? What's the company's plan for people who wanted to buy it in the near future, but now absolutely can't?

2. Why are the discussions only happening behind closed doors, that too with only the Striple owners? In my opinion, the action plan from Triumph's side should be pretty straight forward: "Get our stuff together, give people what they paid for, and rebuild the brand image". This action plan shouldn't need such long-stretched discussions, away from public view.

3. Triumph themselves admitted a number of other bikes were detuned (as small as it may have been). Have we accepted the reason for that power drop is ARAI's testing procedures, or it that also a genuine case of Triumph faking their performance figures but then ignoring them completely?
1- Since this can have impact on resale, i also had asked the same question. Reply was that "price is going to stay and await a price rise across the range due to some changes in statutes coming our way by Jan 15."

2- One last time, Striple brazil sold as UK spec in India! Rest minor difference in ARAI certificate.

My assumption (may be wrong) all this started behind closed door since they tried offering options, based on what customer wanted, from a fixed set of course. All were rejected. In BLR then a uniform offer was made across Striple owners (again multiple options), and we are informed similar options only are being offered across country.

There are rumors that 1 or 2 close to dealers managed to get slightly better take home's. Again rumors, so it can be just that.

3- Detuned? Well no one admitted to that for other models. There is a difference in originally published figure and ARAI certificate. Based on which website was updated. Who termed it detuned lol

Quote:
The attitude can be likened to Triumph UK getting reports of fraud in India, totally ignoring them, then trying their best to do as little as possible to fix them temporarily.
How can you assume UK was not part of the "confusion"?


Quote:
Originally Posted by shan_ned View Post
Well, selecting only a small percentage is unacceptable in my opinion. They should have contacted all the owners. I am sorry to say this - The alternate word for Triumph is dishonesty.
All model owners or Street Triple? With latter they are doing the job is what i have understood, if a dealer missed out someone they should seriously look into it. I know of few who were left behind because they choose to reject the first offer, and were contacted back.

To be fair one of the most "hooo haaa" dealer is right now the biggest joke in the country now, and our BLR dealer who has been the most reserved is the one who is making maximum efforts to resolve things. And Triumph's over dependency on dealership route is flawed based on just this aspect, and they should think on engaging with customers directly.
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Old 16th December 2014, 17:49   #548
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Default Re: Triumph India: Sold Bikes in India with fake performance figures!

One thing I would suggest to the S3 owners who have not been contacted by Triumph is to not wait for them to reach out to you. The wheel that squeaks, gets the grease. Reach out, cry hoarse and get them to offer you a deal.

It's disheartening to know that the Bonneville owners don't get anything. They were told it is a 68bhp machine and its not. Ideally that calls for compensation/explanation.
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Old 16th December 2014, 18:05   #549
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Default Re: Triumph India: Sold Bikes in India with fake performance figures!

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Originally Posted by Sting View Post
One thing I would suggest to the S3 owners who have not been contacted by Triumph is to not wait for them to reach out to you. The wheel that squeaks, gets the grease. Reach out, cry hoarse and get them to offer you a deal.

It's disheartening to know that the Bonneville owners don't get anything. They were told it is a 68bhp machine and its not. Ideally that calls for compensation/explanation.
From following the posts in this thread, it emerges that the Bonneville is not "de-tuned" for India (i.e.) UK spec is being sold here. The difference in the BHP measurements for Bonneville may be due to a bunch of reasons including, but not limited to test conditions, measuring environment, fuel quality etc.

If this is the case, why would they have to offer compensation?
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Old 16th December 2014, 18:14   #550
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaggu View Post
1- Since this can have impact on resale, i also had asked the same question. Reply was that "price is going to stay and await a price rise across the range due to some changes in statutes coming our way by Jan 15."
RIP Triumph.

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Originally Posted by Jaggu View Post
2- There are rumors that 1 or 2 close to dealers managed to get slightly better take home's. Again rumors, so it can be just that.
Exactly what happens when you generate an air of secrecy around something that should be a totally public affair in the first place!

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Originally Posted by Jaggu View Post
3- Detuned? Well no one admitted to that for other models. There is a difference in originally published figure and ARAI certificate. Based on which website was updated. Who termed it detuned lol
"difference in originally published figure and ARAI certificate. Based on which website was updated" = Detune Using it as kind of a figure of speech, not literally.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaggu View Post
How can you assume UK was not part of the "confusion"?
Well then

Quote:
Originally Posted by BackInTheFold View Post
From following the posts in this thread, it emerges that the Bonneville is not "de-tuned" for India (i.e.) UK spec is being sold here. The difference in the BHP measurements for Bonneville may be due to a bunch of reasons including, but not limited to test conditions, measuring environment, fuel quality etc.

If this is the case, why would they have to offer compensation?
Let's take an example. You buy a bag of Lays, and the label on the bag, the shopkeeper, everybody says you'll find 126 chips inside it. You open the bag, and there are only 116 chips.

You go back to Lays, and they ignore you for weeks, then say this:

Lays India Private Limited would like to clarify that the earlier information labels on packets displayed the EU specifications, which was mentioned under the terms and conditions section hidden inside the bag. The testing processes in India and UK are different, which leads to variations in the calculation of number of chips. The numbers are now updated on the packet and are as per the certification under the Indian regulations.

Since our foray into the Indian market, all our chips packets in India have been filled as per the Indian regulations and certifications and same is stated on our current packets. Please note that the number of chips in all packets sold in India are of similar specifications which are sold elsewhere globally, with few minor variations to comply with Indian regulations.


I'm not asking for compensation for giving out 10 less chips, I'm asking for compensation for posting such an amazingly boring official statement, that can literally be used as a weapon for genocide.

Last edited by aah78 : 17th December 2014 at 01:09. Reason: Use MULTI-QUOTE/QUOTE+ when responding to multiple posts please.
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Old 16th December 2014, 19:03   #551
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Default Re: Triumph India: Sold Bikes in India with fake performance figures!

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Originally Posted by RiderZone View Post
Let's take an example. You buy a bag of Lays,
Interesting you bring up Lays.

Have you seen the chips in a packet of Lays in the US? They're huge compared to the ones here. Guess the potatoes are bigger?

Almost all Big bikes have their power rating for 95 RON EC spec. If you read the fine print, you will see something like 95/EC/*.

ARAI obviously did not test with 95 RON. Almost all new bikes retard the output to prevent knocking for lower rated fuel.

Therefore no detuning required for lower output. But lower output does not mean detuned. Run to your nearest Speed 97 pump to get EC rated power.

Cheers

Ride Safe.
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Old 16th December 2014, 20:36   #552
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Default Re: Triumph India: Sold Bikes in India with fake performance figures!

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Originally Posted by BackInTheFold View Post
From following the posts in this thread, it emerges that the Bonneville is not "de-tuned" for India (i.e.) UK spec is being sold here. The difference in the BHP measurements for Bonneville may be due to a bunch of reasons including, but not limited to test conditions, measuring environment, fuel quality etc.

If this is the case, why would they have to offer compensation?
It's not because they are 'detuned'. It's because they have not been advertised as per the Indian regulator's specifications. Take an e.g of a company advertising it's products as 68bhp(in line with ARAI) and another advertising it as 68bhp(but 61 bhp as per ARAI). The consumer who buys the second product would have been sold overstated numbers. For an apple to apple comparison the products need to be marketed to India authorised specifications- not EU ones. The same applies to pollution norms, sound emissions etc.
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Old 16th December 2014, 21:31   #553
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Default Re: Triumph India: Sold Bikes in India with fake performance figures!

Guys , this 7-8bhp difference in actual and test reading of ARAI doesn't sound consistent .

Consistent as in if that were the case , then how come Kawasaki Ninja/Z series bike , the ones assembled here (And as such ARAI tested) have/display the exact same power rating as their foreign counterparts . If 68 becomes 61 under ARAI tests , then 39 of ninja 300 should become 35-36 too . It is of course possible those bikes returned lesser figures but still marketed the international figure because mechanically speaking , it it still the exact same motorcycle .

There are detuned version of the triple officially available that much is clear but has it been established that there isn't a 61bhp version of the bonnie at some other market ?

Last edited by basuroy : 16th December 2014 at 21:33.
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Old 16th December 2014, 22:00   #554
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Default Re: Triumph India: Sold Bikes in India with fake performance figures!

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It's not because they are 'detuned'. It's because they have not been advertised as per the Indian regulator's specifications. Take an e.g of a company advertising it's products as 68bhp(in line with ARAI) and another advertising it as 68bhp(but 61 bhp as per ARAI). The consumer who buys the second product would have been sold overstated numbers. For an apple to apple comparison the products need to be marketed to India authorised specifications- not EU ones. The same applies to pollution norms, sound emissions etc.
This theoretically sound argument hinges on all other vendors stating accurate ARAI figures. However you'll probably find that you're placing an unfair burden for such uprightness on rather slender shoulders i.e. most other bikes will have the same fall off with ARAI for same spec models, but have just not been under such a microscope.

Again, speaking specifically about the Bonnie: while I would have preferred that Triumph had been more upfront/thorough, if I know for certain that the Indian spec is the same as UK spec, what exactly do I blame Triumph for after they explain the vagaries between various bench marks?
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Old 16th December 2014, 22:03   #555
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Default Re: Triumph India: Sold Bikes in India with fake performance figures!

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Consistent as in if that were the case , then how come Kawasaki Ninja/Z series bike , the ones assembled here (And as such ARAI tested) have/display the exact same power rating as their foreign counterparts .
Just curious any one has access to the ARAI certificate of these and other bikes cars? Pramod?

Z800 clearly says 95 Ron minimum on top of fuel tank and ARAI tests only on 91 Ron (as far as i am aware). Would be interesting angle to check and maybe a big can of worms. What the heck, lets find out
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