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Old 16th December 2014, 22:23   #556
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Originally Posted by Jaggu View Post



Z800 clearly says 95 Ron minimum on top of fuel tank and ARAI tests only on 91 Ron (as far as i am aware). Would be interesting angle to check and maybe a big can of worms. What the heck, lets find out

Z800 is a CBU, so I think ARAI doesnt/need not test it.

However even I am curious to see ARAI certificates of other CKD's like ninja300,650,250..etc.Because their advertisied specs here are similar to that of international models.
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Old 17th December 2014, 09:38   #557
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Originally Posted by Jaggu View Post
Z800 clearly says 95 Ron minimum on top of fuel tank and ARAI tests only on 91 Ron (as far as i am aware). Would be interesting angle to check and maybe a big can of worms.
Z800 is CBU, so no ARAI certificate, but it is pretty much expected that if tested the power numbers would be 5-10% lower given the fuel and other ambient conditions.

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A_v_i When did you deliver your bike and did you reach out to dealer enquiring about this? Atleast in BLR dealer has reached out to Striple owners, even to some who replied "why are you offering me all this, i am perfectly fine with the bike" as clueless as possible owners were
I collected the bike a couple of days after i found this thread, payment was made and tax paid, so couldn't really put it on hold, talk about timing , and based on what i saw while signing my docs i raised the question of the ARAI certificate listing my bike as 58.3KW earlier in this thread.

Well, the dealer has been fine, not great but not bad either. I was just clarifying, that i have not received any formal communication from Triumph India regarding the issue. Given the money involved, i would have expected TI to at least drop a standard email to me listing out the details and that they are working on resolving the issue at the earliest.

Last edited by A_v_i : 17th December 2014 at 09:44.
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Old 17th December 2014, 10:27   #558
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Default Re: Triumph India: Sold Bikes in India with fake performance figures!

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Originally Posted by A_v_i View Post
I collected the bike a couple of days after i found this thread, payment was made and tax paid, so couldn't really put it on hold, talk about timing , and based on what i saw while signing my docs i raised the question of the ARAI certificate listing my bike as 58.3KW earlier in this thread.
So did you sign a doc saying you know its a 58.3KW vehicle? As far as my information goes, only owners who got delivery of the vehicle before certain date would be getting these offers from Triumph. New owners are being explained and asked to confirm by signing on a paper that Street Triple is brazil spec and that has been explained to them. Otherwise they can drop the purchase before registering.

Inspite of this dealers has been approached by new owners for refund, the way in which our country works is sometimes quite amusing.
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Old 17th December 2014, 10:29   #559
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Default Re: Triumph India: Sold Bikes in India with fake performance figures!

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Originally Posted by BackInTheFold View Post
This theoretically sound argument hinges on all other vendors stating accurate ARAI figures. However you'll probably find that you're placing an unfair burden for such uprightness on rather slender shoulders i.e. most other bikes will have the same fall off with ARAI for same spec models, but have just not been under such a microscope.

Again, speaking specifically about the Bonnie: while I would have preferred that Triumph had been more upfront/thorough, if I know for certain that the Indian spec is the same as UK spec, what exactly do I blame Triumph for after they explain the vagaries between various bench marks?
It'll be wrong to assume other vendors do not state ARAI figures either. Unless proven otherwise I'd go with the assumption they do state arai. With Triumph it is clearly established that they did not. To 500+ customers. For an entire year. Thats enough cause for misrrepresentation. Slender shoulders or not, there's no excuse for misrepresentation. Stripple owners are upset they were told its 106bhp and its 79. What was promised was not delivered, same is the case for Bonnie owners albeit the difference is smaller.
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Old 17th December 2014, 10:40   #560
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Originally Posted by Jaggu View Post
So did you sign a doc saying you know its a 58.3KW vehicle? As far as my information goes, only owners who got delivery of the vehicle before certain date would be getting these offers from Triumph. New owners are being explained and asked to confirm by signing on a paper that Street Triple is brazil spec and that has been explained to them. Otherwise they can drop the purchase before registering.
No, i did not sign any such doc. Just that when i was signing the standard papers, there was a copy of the ARAI certificate buried deep in the stack by the dealer. The only reason i caught that because it called out 11050 RPM and that was a number i was obsessed with when this news broke

To be clear, i was approached by the dealer from day 1, in fact before other dealers in the country started dishing out offers. So i don't have any problem with the dealer with respect to the interaction post the fiasco coming to light.

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Inspite of this dealers has been approached by new owners for refund, the way in which our country works is sometimes quite amusing.
Yeah, that is going to happen.

I for one think, Triumph India should not use Arrows equipped Striples for test rides. If i had ridden the standard Striple, the difference between Striple and Z800 might have been a little more obvious.

Using Arrows equipped Striples as test ride machines to sell stock Striples (with 25% less power) is just not right!

Last edited by A_v_i : 17th December 2014 at 10:51.
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Old 17th December 2014, 11:04   #561
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Default Re: Triumph India: Sold Bikes in India with fake performance figures!

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Originally Posted by A_v_i View Post

I for one think, Triumph India should not use Arrows equipped Striples for test rides. If i had ridden the standard Striple, the difference between Striple and Z800 might have been a little more obvious.

Using Arrows equipped Striples as test ride machines to sell stock Striples (with 25% less power) is just not right!
True but even Harley Davison does this. Putting on lots of stuff that is not standard on the bike. But as explained by others earlier Arrows will not make a 25% difference in the power maybe about 5% is what is reported.
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Old 17th December 2014, 11:07   #562
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But as explained by others earlier Arrows will not make a 25% difference in the power maybe about 5% is what is reported.
In case of Striple it does, because of the ECU map that comes along with Arrows. A stock Indian Striple with just the Arrows package (including remap) is rated for a little over 100BHP, whereas the stock one is rated for 85BHP.

Interestingly, as far as i know, only Striples test ride machines across the country come equipped with Arrows, and not Daytonas, Speeds or Bonnevilles. That just seems very fishy.

Last edited by A_v_i : 17th December 2014 at 11:19.
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Old 17th December 2014, 11:19   #563
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Default Re: Triumph India: Sold Bikes in India with fake performance figures!

Quote:
Originally Posted by A_v_i View Post
Using Arrows equipped Striples as test ride machines to sell stock Striples (with 25% less power) is just not right!
Quote:
Originally Posted by ACM View Post
True but even Harley Davison does this. Putting on lots of stuff that is not standard on the bike. But as explained by others earlier Arrows will not make a 25% difference in the power maybe about 5% is what is reported.
Quote:
Originally Posted by A_v_i View Post
In case of Striple it does, because of the ECU map that comes along with Arrows. A stock Indian Striple with just the Arrows package (including remap) is rated for a little over 100BHP, whereas the stock one is rated for 85BHP.
My test ride bike was also on arrow and both the times i test rode, i could barely take it to 6k RPM so i would not have made out the difference.

And no with just arrow & arrow remap it will NOT goto 100 bhp, it needs minimum 97 Ron fuel also to get to 80.2 wheel horse power (96 bhp crank if you apply correction) from dyno tests. I have heard that with arrows the bike runs rich, which directly correlates to a restricted intake. So unless intake side is also opened up a 25% jump is no way possible.
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Old 17th December 2014, 11:22   #564
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Default Re: Triumph India: Sold Bikes in India with fake performance figures!

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Originally Posted by Jaggu View Post
And no with just arrow & arrow remap it will NOT goto 100 bhp, it needs minimum 97 Ron fuel also to get to 80.2 wheel horse power (96 bhp crank if you apply correction) from dyno tests. I have heard that with arrows the bike runs rich, which directly correlates to a restricted intake. So unless intake side is also opened up a 25% jump is no way possible.
Aren't we now just debating semantics? OK, not 25% (that's why i called out "rated", given the 97RON requirements, etc, stock Indian Striple is also not 85BHP in actual), but there will still be a significant enough power difference. Agreed that in most test rides we won't be able to push the bike enough to feel the difference.

Given that only Striple test ride machines come equipped with Arrows (and that too at all dealers across the country), i would be inclined to believe that, that is on purpose to mask the power difference.

Last edited by A_v_i : 17th December 2014 at 11:33.
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Old 17th December 2014, 11:30   #565
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Default Re: Triumph India: Sold Bikes in India with fake performance figures!

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Originally Posted by A_v_i View Post
Aren't we now just debating semantics? OK, not 25%, but there will still be a significant enough power difference.
With just arrow one would normally see 4-5 bhp bump at the best on normal gas. The decibel deception from Arrows would be more deceptive if you ask me, 4-5 bhp cannot be caught on test rides, esp since this difference is evident only at higher RPM's.

As far as my knowledge goes what we really fall for during test rides is the flat torque curve on a bike like Street. This still remains very flat across the revs and is the reason why people (including sbk boys) couldn't catch this or why other 650's are way behind the experience that a Street Triple gives. It's just like turbocharged diechel at the end of the day!
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Old 17th December 2014, 11:36   #566
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Default Re: Triumph India: Sold Bikes in India with fake performance figures!

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Originally Posted by Jaggu View Post
With just arrow one would normally see 4-5 bhp bump at the best on normal gas.
I disagree. We have dyno ratings of "Arrow + Map" Striples circulating online, ofcourse Triumph earlier tried to pass off these dyno runs as those of stock Striples.

So with 97RON + Arrows + Map, the bikes were rated at about 100BHP at the crank. ARAI rated standard Striple + 91RON at 78BHP at the crank. I am presuming that switching 97RON with 91RON in the Arrows equipped bike would not drop the power down to early 80s. That is a big different in my opinion.

Last edited by A_v_i : 17th December 2014 at 11:43.
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Old 17th December 2014, 12:10   #567
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Default Re: Triumph India: Sold Bikes in India with fake performance figures!

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Originally Posted by A_v_i View Post
So with 97RON + Arrows + Map, the bikes were rated at about 100BHP at the crank. ARAI rated standard Striple + 91RON at 78BHP at the crank. I am presuming that switching 97RON with 91RON in the Arrows equipped bike would not drop the power down to early 80s. That is a big different in my opinion.
We are comparing arrow which made 80 WHP (wheel HP) & 97 Ron = 100 CHP (crank HP) tested on Race Dynamics dyno Vs Stock bike 64 WHP & 91 Ron = 78 CHP on Race Concepts Dyno.


Stock bike 64 WHP & 91 Ron = 78 CHP on Race Concepts Dyno. Vs Arrow pipe & 91 Ron = 76 WHP and 95CHP on Race Concepts Dyno.

So there is a jump of 12 bhp on WHP and 17 bhp on CHP on the same machine.

Now this jump i feel is due to the brazil spec exhaust that stock bike is running which is restricted Vs the Euro spec Arrow the latter is running. So yes its more than 4-5 bhp that an arrow usually would give, unless the bike was running similar EU spec OE end can.

Hope this clears the air, i was partially wrong i guess when i mentioned a generic 4-5 bhp bump in this discussion context.

Last edited by Jaggu : 17th December 2014 at 12:11.
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Old 17th December 2014, 13:45   #568
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Default Re: Triumph India: Sold Bikes in India with fake performance figures!

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Originally Posted by Jaggu View Post
So there is a jump of 12 bhp on WHP and 17 bhp on CHP on the same machine.

Now this jump i feel is due to the brazil spec exhaust that stock bike is running which is restricted Vs the Euro spec Arrow the latter is running. So yes its more than 4-5 bhp that an arrow usually would give, unless the bike was running similar EU spec OE end can.

Hope this clears the air, i was partially wrong i guess when i mentioned a generic 4-5 bhp bump in this discussion context.
OK, but are you telling me that you don't find it odd that only Striple test ride machines at all Triumph dealers in the country are running Arrows? That is a big coincidence, right?
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Old 17th December 2014, 14:46   #569
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Default Re: Triumph India: Sold Bikes in India with fake performance figures!

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Originally Posted by A_v_i View Post
OK, but are you telling me that you don't find it odd that only Striple test ride machines at all Triumph dealers in the country are running Arrows? That is a big coincidence, right?
I can talk about BLR and here we have both Bonnie (full exhaust kit) and Street (slipon) on Arrow, that i have noticed. Conspiracy or not, no idea and your guess as good as mine. My criteria for buying was not just the "arrow power delivery", which would not have mattered the way i test drove the bike anyway.
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Old 17th December 2014, 16:00   #570
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Default Re: Triumph India: Sold Bikes in India with fake performance figures!

Here we all are debating about :

1. The Street Triple test drive bikes are running arrows
2. Whether running on 97 Ron/91 Ron fuel will make any difference to the figures?
3. Whether the Arrow + remap will enhance the rating to the figures reported earlier?
4. Whether other manufactures too are resorting to this practice?
5. What will be the resale value after all this and whether it will increase for the machines which will be upgraded?
6. Why are the discussions only happening behind closed doors?

What we are missing here is the bigger picture, i.e. with regard to the resolution that is being provided by Triumph India to the whole fiasco.



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Originally Posted by jkdas View Post
Adding data from xbhp:


1-Sell the bike to Triumph and get back money.

2-Take 1.5 Lakhs worth accessories and pay ~10k for making it 106PS. The cost of Arrow exhaust and maps will be included in this sum. Which I was told will be ~60k. Sign an indemnity form to accept the modifications.

3-Upgrade the bike to 106 PS. [I think without the money back.] Sign an indemnity form to accept the modifications. Which are out of ARAI rules.
.
Now if we look at the above mentioned options, is it justified only getting back the money paid to triumph (whether the road tax, registration and insurance will also be paid to the owner is to be seen). What about the compensation for the hoodwinking resorted to by Triumph?

Isnít the customer entitled for that too?


Secondly if someone opts for the second or third option, why is he then required to give an indemnity to Triumph. The indemnity signed as it seems from what is written above is to accept the modifications being done to the bike and to assume all responsibility on oneself for those. This will relieve Triumph from its accountability for first of all defrauding the customer and secondly from any legal ramifications that may arise from the upgrade and make the customer liable for these.

So all in all the customer still has to suffer for the so called mistakes/fraud committed by Triumph.
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