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Old 20th November 2014, 22:18   #91
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Default re: Triumph India: Sold Bikes in India with fake performance figures!

Folks, I believe this is a huge data mixup with the guys who maintain the Triumph India website. Especially for the ST. No Triumph Dealer seems to have a clue and those who have responded about ARAI ratings or something like that probably are taking wild guesses on being startled with this info.
As many have said, de-tuning a bike by 25-30% is not easy at all and requires way too much re-engineering - no remap can do that without killing the bike's drive-ability itself and putting in a much earlier revv limiter will be too obvious and would make the whole point of a triple moot.
If you still have doubts, buy the bike, get the Arrows, which come with the Arrow specific ECU map and get to 110bhp without question.
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Old 20th November 2014, 23:10   #92
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Default re: Triumph India: Sold Bikes in India with fake performance figures!

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Originally Posted by niranjanrvce View Post
No Triumph Dealer seems to have a clue and those who have responded about ARAI ratings or something like that probably are taking wild guesses on being startled with this info.
Right, so the Triumph Dealer in Pune also mentioned the ARAI bit to me but i ignored that because it just seemed like speculation. At least it would not explain the 25% power drop for the Striple.
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Old 20th November 2014, 23:41   #93
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Default re: Triumph India: Sold Bikes in India with fake performance figures!

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Originally Posted by ebonho View Post
So is this a positioning exercise? Are they finding the Street Triple at 106 bhp eating into the sales of some of its more expensive stablemates?

So is this an exercise to prevent sales splitting within the same stable?

By pulling the Striple back to 79 bhp, it frees up the Daytona and Speed Triple. And by pulling the Bonneville back to its pre 1997 carbed output (61 bbhp) they've given some space to both these bikes as well. Not to mention the Bonnie and the Striple are very different bikes.

Problem with this theory is that Triumph now has bikes in multiples of 20 bhp increments - 60, 80, and 120.

But the 100 slot is now empty.

Could it be because there is no other competitor in that slot either (the Z800 at 115 bhp is in Daytona and Speed Triple territory more than full-power Striple territory anyways)?
The 100hp slot was not empty prior to the detuning scandal(?). While the Street Triple may have been affecting Daytona sales, remember that detuning the ST3 a lot will only drive customers to other brands and like you, the big shots at Triumph UK and Triumph India should and would know that. It's foolhardy to shoot your own leg in a race because that leg is stronger than the other. You like the other MBA-wallahs should have anticipated that as much. Besides, it looks like the number of kits being sent is so low that even the Daytona isn't available off the shelf easily. Each dealer seems to get 2 or 3 a month. That's around 15-20 Daytonas a month all over India. The ST3 apparently has a 3-4 month wait and is supplied in similar quantities. Down-grading the ST3 performance will hurt Triumph more , and I expect they should know that.

Neither does Triumph have to worry about the Bonnie taking away sales from the ST3 ; different segments and few would settle for a Bonnie if they want but can't afford an ST3.



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Originally Posted by ebonho View Post
See, the Daytona and the Bonneville are actually probably fuel-cum-reliability related detunes (both dropping 7-8 horses for the developing world).
That is still the most plausible answer yet. Doesn't explain the huge drop for the ST3 though.



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Originally Posted by djay99 View Post
I never thought about Daytona (though i can buy one) was because of above reasons. Why pay 3 lacs more when you can buy ST which has same chassis and engine (in a lower state of tune) as daytona. Also ST can be used for touring*.

But why did they tinker power figures of daytona and speed triple? I don't think these bikes are posing any problem to other triumph bikes.
I guess it could be because of above positioning reason+fuel issues which might be reason for such a move.
Fuel perhaps. Repositioning no. If that was the reason, they didn't need to reduce the power of the Daytona - or the classics (Bonnie SE and T100 ).

And I expect the suits at Triumph India know very well what value-conscious buyers Indians are.


Quote:
Originally Posted by harsha.muvva View Post
By detuning the stripe, they would be promoting more riders to z800 than compared to daytona/speed!
Yes, and I'd be surprised if the suits at Triumph UK and Triumph India aren't clued in on that.



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Originally Posted by Sutripta View Post
As I said before, 100 is a magic number, whether bhp, bhp/ ton, cricket, or exams. 99 does not cut it, let alone something in the 70s or 80s. It is not about science or engineering, but emotion. A bike manufacturer, more than anyone else, should know that.

On a more technical note, back of envelope calculations suggest an air restrictor, or if it is a throttle by wire, a simple strategem of not opening the throttle fully! Indian volumes will not justify a reengineering.
Indeed what I was thinking. That would necessitate new parts for a very small volume. Doesn't make logisitical justification. ECU mapping controls FI and ignition timing/duration, and it's all easier to control.

The tuning for power theory doesn't work here - getting even a few more horses out of a well-tuned machine is difficult, but it's very easy to kill power and laying the timing off too much.


Re-iterating from my earlier post in this thread :
Only the assembled models in India are re-tuned. The CBUs - the cruiser and the adventure models, are untouched - as of now. This does hint at detune for Indian fuel rationale, though it then raises the question why didn't the Japanese detune their models, they have been selling here longer than the British firm and would have known if any problems arose due to fuel quality - or they don't care given the minuscule volumes.


Quote:
Originally Posted by niranjanrvce
As many have said, de-tuning a bike by 25-30% is not easy at all and requires way too much re-engineering
actually detuning is easy to do and doesn't really require change of parts, all you have to do is reduce the fuel flow and/or set the ignition advance to more conservative.
Getting more is difficult, getting less not so.


Don't expect much of a clued in answer from dealers. This is something Triumph officials need to answer, and that could happen if a prominent magazine who can reach out to them raises the question with them.

Last edited by Ricci : 20th November 2014 at 23:52.
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Old 21st November 2014, 11:11   #94
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Default re: Triumph India: Sold Bikes in India with fake performance figures!

Question on everyone's mind is - IF its true that Triumph has significantly cut down power, torque, and overall performance on some/many of their offerings, is Triumph now going to offer the same at a reduced/discounted price?

How much would you be willing to pay for a 79 bhp Street Triple?

How much would you be willing to pay for a 61 bhp Bonneville?
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Old 21st November 2014, 11:37   #95
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Question on everyone's mind is - IF its true that Triumph has significantly cut down power, torque, and overall performance on some/many of their offerings, is Triumph now going to offer the same at a reduced/discounted price
You think so, doc? By the way, an unconfirmed rumor says that Zubin quit Triumph Mumbai. That's quite a big departure if it's true.
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Old 21st November 2014, 11:42   #96
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Default re: Triumph India: Sold Bikes in India with fake performance figures!

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Originally Posted by anilp View Post
You think so, doc? By the way, an unconfirmed rumor says that Zubin quit Triumph Mumbai. That's quite a big departure if it's true.
Tell me something buddy, if you, a team BHPian, were to buy a neutered Bonnie or Striple, and paid the same amount of money your friends here had paid for their full power ones, and on group rides, they disappeared into the distance and had taken off their gloves and helmets and were waiting for you at stops along the way, how delighted would you feel about the whole thing?
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Old 21st November 2014, 12:01   #97
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Originally Posted by ebonho View Post
Tell me something buddy, if you, a team BHPian, were to buy a neutered Bonnie or Striple, and paid the same amount of money your friends here had paid for their full power ones, and on group rides, they disappeared into the distance and had taken off their gloves and helmets and were waiting for you at stops along the way, how delighted would you feel about the whole thing?
No arguments on that, doc. Triumph messing up is Kawasaki's gain. There's also guys like Benelli waiting on the sidelines. Yeah, the CBR 650F too.
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Old 21st November 2014, 12:05   #98
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Default re: Triumph India: Sold Bikes in India with fake performance figures!

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Originally Posted by anilp View Post
No arguments on that, doc. Triumph messing up is Kawasaki's gain. There's also guys like Benelli waiting on the sidelines. Yeah, the CBR 650F too.
Btw, Zubin who? The rally (scooters) rider? Or the SBK tuner? Sorry, am a Triumphignoramus.

Last edited by ebonho : 21st November 2014 at 12:16.
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Old 21st November 2014, 12:23   #99
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Btw, Zubin who? The rally (scooters) rider? Or the SBK tuner? Sorry, am a Triumphignoramus.
Tuner. The rider is Zubin Patel.
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Old 21st November 2014, 12:59   #100
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Default re: Triumph India: Sold Bikes in India with fake performance figures!

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Originally Posted by ebonho View Post
How much would you be willing to pay for a 61 bhp Bonneville?
Off the top of my head, probably as much as I would for the HD Street 750. Maybe round it up to 5 lakh, tops.

But it depends on the nature of the detune too. If they've simply dialed down the top whack of the bike a little, I wouldn't be that fussed. If the detune hits low and mid range pull, then yeah, I actually think the 750 would be way more fun to ride.

The Street Triple is another question altogether. That isn't just a detune we're discussing, it is a different bike, period. I wouldn't even begin to guess how much I'd pay for it until I read some very, very reliable reviews AND take a 30 minute test ride.
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Old 21st November 2014, 13:13   #101
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Default re: Triumph India: Sold Bikes in India with fake performance figures!

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But it depends on the nature of the detune too. If they've simply dialed down the top whack of the bike a little, I wouldn't be that fussed. If the detune hits low and mid range pull, then yeah, I actually think the 750 would be way more fun to ride.
From reports from Ram and Avi here, I know that the Bonnie can be pushed above 190, close to 200. Unbelievable looking at the bike, but true, considering the sources I get this from.

Considering this, how much of a dial back exactly of the top end would leave you unfussed?

190?

180?

170?

.
.
.
.
.
.
.

160?

(Remember, even the original old Bonnevile's would hit the ton)

I am guessing both of us are working on the assumption here that we are paying the same moolah before and after.

Last edited by ebonho : 21st November 2014 at 13:20.
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Old 21st November 2014, 13:59   #102
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Default re: Triumph India: Sold Bikes in India with fake performance figures!

Interestingly, the Thruxton, which has the same engine as the Bonnie, has seen no change.
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Old 21st November 2014, 14:29   #103
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Default re: Triumph India: Sold Bikes in India with fake performance figures!

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How much would you be willing to pay for a 79 bhp Street Triple?
I think somewhere around mid 5L at the most, but difficult to be sure without a test ride because it would just be such a different bike with the detune.
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Old 21st November 2014, 14:35   #104
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Default re: Triumph India: Sold Bikes in India with fake performance figures!

In relation to my previous post about the Bonnie's top end, most international comparos and reports put the Bonneville's top speed to be around 115 to 118 mph. That's about 184-189 kmph.
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Old 21st November 2014, 15:00   #105
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Default re: Triumph India: Sold Bikes in India with fake performance figures!

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Originally Posted by ebonho View Post
From reports from Ram and Avi here, I know that the Bonnie can be pushed above 190, close to 200. Unbelievable looking at the bike, but true, considering the sources I get this from.

Considering this, how much of a dial back exactly of the top end would leave you unfussed?

I am guessing both of us are working on the assumption here that we are paying the same moolah before and after.
I like this game! Let's see now:

1. Assuming that the Bonnie's top whack is around 195-200, and
2. Given that the Bonnie detune numbers don't look as drastic as those for the Street Triple,

I'd not be too fussed if the top speed rating was lowered to around 180-185 kmph. That's a 10-15 kmph drop much closer to the 200 mark than I will ever be for the vast majority of my riding time with that kind of bike, and I can live with that. Would be different if this was a sports bike, but it's not- it's a Bonnie.

But if it dropped below 180 from the older 200, I'd start to question why I'm paying that much moolah for it when the HD750 can push upto 170 at 4.7 lakh on road.
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