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Old 21st November 2014, 15:09   #106
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Default re: Triumph India: Sold Bikes in India with fake performance figures!

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Originally Posted by Silverflash View Post
I like this game! Let's see now:

1. Assuming that the Bonnie's top whack is around 195-200, and
2. Given that the Bonnie detune numbers don't look as drastic as those for the Street Triple,

I'd not be too fussed if the top speed rating was lowered to around 180-185 kmph. That's a 10-15 kmph drop much closer to the 200 mark than I will ever be for the vast majority of my riding time with that kind of bike, and I can live with that. Would be different if this was a sports bike, but it's not- it's a Bonnie.

But if it dropped below 180 from the older 200, I'd start to question why I'm paying that much moolah for it when the HD750 can push upto 170 at 4.7 lakh on road.
So now if you were told that the top speed of 2014 Bonnevilles (pre detune, ones tested in the US) is 118 mph or about 190 kmph, and you were unfussed by around 15 kmph drop in the top end, what does that equate to?

175 kmph.

And the Street at sub 5 lacs does 170? (actually so does the Duke 390, at 2 lacs, but as below with the Ninjas, its a completely different kind of bike, so we can keep it away)

Yes the Street is small. Yes the Street has crappy brakes and Indian tyres. Yes the Street has no model history to speak of.

Does the Bonneville then give you anything more for the 3 lacs extra you would be paying to get one?

We cannot bring the N650/ER6N into this because its a completely different bike.

Hyosung does not have a big enough standard/cruiser. Royal Enfield is a long long way away in terms of performance. And will be for the unforeseeable future. Ducati Monster has disappeared from the scene (though again, a different/radical/non-traditional sort of bike).

Last edited by ebonho : 21st November 2014 at 15:26.
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Old 21st November 2014, 15:25   #107
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Default re: Triumph India: Sold Bikes in India with fake performance figures!

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So now if you were told that the top speed of 2014 Bonnevilles (pre detune, ones tested in the US) is 118 mph or about 190 kmph, and you were unfussed by around 15 kmph drop in the top end, what does that equate to?
Not so fast, Doc - I said I would be OK with that top end detune only if the top whack was 200, as tested by fellow members. If the top whack was 190 to begin with, then I'd stay quiet only if the drop was around 5-10 kmph to 180-185 kmph.

IF the bike ever dropped below 180, then it just isn't in the category it was supposed to be in, and I would see no reason to rate it higher than the 750 at the price.

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Yes the Street is small. Yes the Street has crappy brakes and Indian tyres. Yes the Street has no model history to speak of.
Does the Bonneville then give you anthing more for the 3 lacs extra you would be paying to get one?
To me personally, with a detune bringing top whack down to under 180, the only things the Bonnie gives me that the 750 cannot ever is a more comfortable riding position for a 6' rider. Brakes, I can replace. Tyres, ditto. Both replacements, even if using premium parts, will still keep my costs lower than buying a Bonnie.

Things like refinement of engine, build, history, brand etc - don't really care. I'm not buying an executive sedan, I'm buying a bloody bike which I expect to get my hands dirty with sooner or later, not some namby-pamby saloon that should remain pristine with no work needed on it.

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We cannot bring the N650/ER6N into this because its a completely different bike.
Agreed. I'm only considering bikes in the allrounder category both performance and visual wise.

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Maybe the Hyosung cruiser? How much does it cost?
6 lakhs if I remember right? Can't check right now, but I'm not sure what it's power ratings are. I'm not sure it will be as much of an all rounder as the Bonnie (neither is the 750), but then again, a detuned Bonnie isn't as much of an allrounder in the first place, so the game would be well and truly afoot.
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Old 21st November 2014, 15:40   #108
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Default re: Triumph India: Sold Bikes in India with fake performance figures!

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Originally Posted by Silverflash View Post
To me personally, with a detune bringing top whack down to under 180, the only things the Bonnie gives me that the 750 cannot ever is a more comfortable riding position for a 6' rider. Brakes, I can replace. Tyres, ditto. Both replacements, even if using premium parts, will still keep my costs lower than buying a Bonnie.
Agree fully with most of your post (personal "unfuss" threshold diferences notwithstanding .....) except this part.

This is what I call the Sidhart Lal "blank canvas" argument. (being polite for forum purposes and calling it an "argument" at all is giving me no end of dyspepsia ....)

Which is - give the customer less than what he expects. Expecting him to work on it on his own. And expecting him to enjoy paying for that "privilege."

We are comparing bike to bike, from the manufacturer, what you pay, what you get.

Yes, replacing tyres is not tough.

No, replacing crappy brakes with a reliable bolt-on minimal-intervention fix is not easy.

Sure there will soon be well known, well tried fixes available by word of mouth from the Harley community.

But that's not MY (insert name of rider) job!

Hope Sidhart Lal is reading this as well, since he believes that Harley and Triumph riders are essentially posers ....

Last edited by ebonho : 21st November 2014 at 15:43.
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Old 21st November 2014, 16:06   #109
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Default re: Triumph India: Sold Bikes in India with fake performance figures!

Doc, Silverflash, are you guys just debating theory, or are price cuts likely? A detuned Street Triple, as long as it has the same suspension, chassis etc, at 5lakhs odd would be a great bike. Not all of us could handle that much power anyway. Sure, seeing the STriple neutered like this is a shame, but now it's essentially a new bike. And if a price cut follows, it should see more sales.
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Old 21st November 2014, 16:14   #110
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Default re: Triumph India: Sold Bikes in India with fake performance figures!

I've had a look at the Triumph India website and compared it to the Triumph UK stats (Done the same with HD India and US). The numbers don't quite add up. If we were to take up fuel quality as the reason, why is it not across the board?

On the Triumph site, the differences with many models is between PS (Stated for India site) vs bhp (Stated for UK site) which reduces the on paper output of every Triumph India model by 2-5 bhp at least (Torque figures largely remaining the same).

Definitely going to look into this more.
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Old 21st November 2014, 16:34   #111
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Default re: Triumph India: Sold Bikes in India with fake performance figures!

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Doc, Silverflash, are you guys just debating theory, or are price cuts likely?
Just intellectual thinking, mate. The reality is that there is absolutely NO information from Triumph, so we're all indulging in flights of fancy.

The bottom line is that while we're seeing website figures that suggest detunes, we're seeing no change in pricing. And that's a bummer if it actually happens.

I see Doc's point about not wanting bikes to just be the bare basics and not give riders good kit from the get go. But for me personally, if I were forced to make a choice, some things are not as important as others. If the Bonnie came out with worse brakes, worse rubber or worse switchgear, I'd be able to deal with it a lot easier than if it came out with a worse engine, gearbox or suspension. But that's just me.

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Last edited by n_aditya : 21st November 2014 at 17:56.
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Old 21st November 2014, 16:58   #112
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Default re: Triumph India: Sold Bikes in India with fake performance figures!

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I see Doc's point about not wanting bikes to just be the bare basics and not give riders good kit from the get go. But for me personally, if I were forced to make a choice, some things are not as important as others. If the Bonnie came out with worse brakes, worse rubber or worse switchgear, I'd be able to deal with it a lot easier than if it came out with a worse engine, gearbox or suspension. But that's just me.
True, engine, gearbox etc takes priority in decision making. But when you're paying 5lakh odd, you'd expect better finish than what's available in bikes that retail at half the price. With that being said, I'd be able to live with the Street 750 with no problems, but would find it hard to swallow the rattles and cheap plastic that's plaguing the first lot RC390's, despite the brilliant performance and kit on offer.

Last edited by KhalDrogo : 21st November 2014 at 16:59. Reason: Grammar
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Old 21st November 2014, 17:03   #113
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Default re: Triumph India: Sold Bikes in India with fake performance figures!

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Originally Posted by KhalDrogo View Post
Doc, Silverflash, are you guys just debating theory, or are price cuts likely? A detuned Street Triple, as long as it has the same suspension, chassis etc, at 5lakhs odd would be a great bike. Not all of us could handle that much power anyway. Sure, seeing the STriple neutered like this is a shame, but now it's essentially a new bike. And if a price cut follows, it should see more sales.
Street triple (79PS) at 5L ex-showroom is impossible. Its a high tech bike with lot of best quality components. I guess 6L is realistic pricing.
Even at 79PS, it has a power to weight ratio of 420PS/Ton.

I don't think triumph is allocating a good number of kits to indian market as i never heard waiting period for these bikes to be lower than 2 months.
This could be to create hype but if they want to make more money then they should increase supply to india. A quick delivery bike will sell faster anyday.

Last edited by djay99 : 21st November 2014 at 17:05.
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Old 21st November 2014, 17:13   #114
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Default re: Triumph India: Sold Bikes in India with fake performance figures!

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Street triple at 5L ex-showroom is impossible. Its a high tech bike with lot of best quality components. I guess 6 to 6.5L is realistic pricing.
Even at 79PS, it has a power to weight ratio of 420PS/Ton
Okay, I did get carried away with the 5lakhs price tag I guess. But yeah. That was my point. If they add a price cut with the detune, the bike still makes a lot of sense considering the package on offer. But since the brochures with the "typo" don't have an updated price, I doubt that's going to happen now. Unless this in itself is proof that it really is a typo after all.
Strange situation, made even more surprising by Triumph's silence so far.
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Old 21st November 2014, 17:23   #115
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Default re: Triumph India: Sold Bikes in India with fake performance figures!

Have I missed something here?
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Triumph India: Sold Bikes in India with fake performance figures!-stripleabs.jpg  

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Old 21st November 2014, 17:30   #116
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Yes, download the brochure and check.
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Old 21st November 2014, 17:36   #117
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Default re: Triumph India: Sold Bikes in India with fake performance figures!

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Doc, Silverflash, are you guys just debating theory, or are price cuts likely?
This whole thread is conjecture and theories as of now bro. Jump right in!

Quote:
A detuned Street Triple, as long as it has the same suspension, chassis etc, at 5lakhs odd would be a great bike. Not all of us could handle that much power anyway. Sure, seeing the STriple neutered like this is a shame, but now it's essentially a new bike. And if a price cut follows, it should see more sales.
I think you are getting really ambitious at 5 for the Striple.

5 is what we were discussing for the detuned Bonnie. When pitted against the Street.

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Originally Posted by Silverflash View Post
The bottom line is that while we're seeing website figures that suggest detunes, we're seeing no change in pricing. And that's a bummer if it actually happens.
The bummer is that it could wel happen. And both sides essentially lose. Hope it does not. We need competition. Right now only Kawasaki really makes sense in the middle to upper middle weight segment.

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I see Doc's point about not wanting bikes to just be the bare basics and not give riders good kit from the get go. But for me personally, if I were forced to make a choice, some things are not as important as others. If the Bonnie came out with worse brakes, worse rubber or worse switchgear, I'd be able to deal with it a lot easier than if it came out with a worse engine, gearbox or suspension. But that's just me.
The bold part makes me think you misunderstood me. If the engine, gearbox, as well as the chassis (suspension being part of the package) were no good, we would not even be having this conversation.

Those are basics. Non-negotiable.

If you were to whittle it down to just two, I'd pick gearbox to leave out (I've been riding AND fully enjoying farm machinery for over 10 years now, so .....).

And if just one, then I'd live with a shaky steven (I'm a Bulleteer first and foremost - remember?!!).

But an anemic engine just means bye bye.

My point was limited. Don't give me crappy brakes and tyres and expect me to change them. Do it yourself! You don't see me paying you part price and expecting you to make up the difference elsewhere now do you?!!!! When bikes less than half the price can have expensive kit, there is simply no excuse to skimp. "Tax" or no tax, please remember that 5 lacs can and still does buy an Indian family a decent car .....

Last edited by ebonho : 21st November 2014 at 17:48.
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Old 21st November 2014, 17:48   #118
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Default re: Triumph India: Sold Bikes in India with fake performance figures!

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This whole thread is conjecture and theories as of now bro. Jump right in!
This whole situation is really sad. Triumph were just starting to get a foothold in the market and they've now shot themselves in that same foot. Any word on whether any statement is even due? The Bonneville, as it stands makes no sense against the much cheaper Street 750, and the STriple is going to be a dud against Z800 with the much more desirable Ducati Monsters are yet to arrive. The Daytona was already a stretch at its price for a 675cc bike. A power decrease is the last thing it needed. Unless a price cut is announced, sales for these bikes will take a beating in my humble opinion.
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Old 21st November 2014, 17:51   #119
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Default re: Triumph India: Sold Bikes in India with fake performance figures!

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with the much more desirable Ducati Monsters are yet to arrive.
Really? When? By who?

The last iteration at 5.99 lacs special offer was really yummy were it not for all the subsequent fiasco baggage attached. Most serious bikers will not buy exotics without support. Because bikes are meant to be used.

Last edited by ebonho : 21st November 2014 at 17:52.
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Old 21st November 2014, 18:00   #120
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Really? When? By who?

The last iteration at 5.99 lacs special offer was really yummy were it not for all the subsequent fiasco baggage attached. Most serious bikers will not buy exotics without support. Because bikes are meant to be used.
Please don't hold me to this, as it's just news I've read online. When the scrambler was launched, there were statements that it would be officially available here in 2015 followed by other models. Imported from Thailand if I remember. Plus, the same view was echoed in another post on this forum, just yesterday. Hence assumed it to be true. Sorry for being off topic
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