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Old 5th February 2015, 12:52   #31
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Default Re: Harley Davidson brake defect - Dragged to court by Pune businessman

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Originally Posted by man_of_steel View Post

But on types like cruisers and scooters the weight bias is towards the rear tyre and even on aggressive application of front brake, the rear will always have a good contact patch. Where as a sports bike's rear tyre will come off the ground the moment you become hot on the right lever. How many Harleys have you seen doing a stoppie? And that long raked front fork will not be forgiving like a sports bike if you grab a handful of front brake and might result in an instant front wheel washout. (One of the lessons learned among many others during a 4 month bed rest).

The point is, it does matter which type of bike you ride and your braking will(should) change based on the bike you ride. So on a cruiser you will have to use the rear brake more than on any other bikes.
Totally agree with you on the weight distribution ratio of the sports bikes. But the advice to use more rear brakes on a cruiser is confusing.

I grew up hearing the advice - "stay off the front brakes" and had two experiences that still send chills up my spine.

1. I used to ride around in my Father's Bajaj Chetak and once when I was overtaking a car, I saw a Transport bus approaching some 300 meters from the other side. Stepped on the rear brake and rear wheel stepped out sending the scooter into a sideways skid. Stayed on the rear brake while turning the handlebar into the skid and released the rear brakes out of panic, just before both the wheels were in line. The resultant head shake - I will never ever forget in my life. Lessons learned then : Be gentle on the rear brake and on a rear wheel skid, stay on the brakes till both wheels are in line.

2. In my Royal Enfield Bullet, during my initial riding days I never touched the front brake. The result was that within a month, I was doing 90 and 180 degree stops in the midst of city traffic.

Meanwhile in Team-Bhp, n_adithya shared the information on some excellent books on motorcycle riding techniques and must say it changed my world for good.

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/motorb...-thread-8.html (The Safe Riding thread)

Since then I use more front brake than the rear and have made panic stops successfully and am still thankful to n_adithya for the pointers to those treasures.

The increased rake angle in a cruiser actually makes it more stable. You can see that it is more difficult to steer a cruiser than a sports bike and also that the cruiser gives you less head shakes that the sports ones.

So out of my experience, what I would say is "while riding a cruiser and in panic stop situations - Use both the brakes. Use front brakes as your primary brake and use the rear brakes in such a way that they won't lock and step out. Always remember that a locked front wheel gives you a low side and a locked rear wheel gives you a high side.
To emphasis the stopping power of the front brakes , here are two videos - One from an exert stunter in full gear and one from a nincompoop in fools gear.




So what I think is that the types of motorcycles doesn't matter. It is the skill of the rider that matter and for that one needs to constantly practice. One should learn to use that front brakes to full potential and learn to modulate the brake lever when you get the feeling that it is about to lock up. And the most important thing - During aggressive braking with the front brake, always brake in a straight line.
regards adrian

Last edited by adrian : 5th February 2015 at 13:10. Reason: Typos
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Old 5th February 2015, 13:01   #32
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Default Re: Harley Davidson brake defect - Dragged to court by Pune businessman

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Originally Posted by adrian View Post
..But the advice to use more rear brakes on a cruiser is confusing.
Sorry for the misunderstanding man! I should have been more clear. What I actually meant was

Quote:
The point is, it does matter which type of bike you ride and your braking will(should) change based on the bike you ride. So on a cruiser you will have to use the rear brake more than on any other bikes.
Use the rear brake on a cruiser or a scooter more than what you normally do on any other type of bikes! And not 30-70 front-rear usage.

I ride my friend's brand new TB500 when I am back in my hometown and although the rear brake is non-existent, I find myself using the rear brake pedal way more than I do on my 390!

Last edited by man_of_steel : 5th February 2015 at 13:03.
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Old 5th February 2015, 13:46   #33
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Default Re: Harley Davidson brake defect - Dragged to court by Pune businessman

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Originally Posted by Urban_Nomad View Post
To share an analogy; the front brakes on my KTM Duke 390 are quite spongy. The same has been checked and parts replaced multiuple times but the issue still persists. Its the case with most 390s and actually many other KTM models the world over. So whenever I ride, I factor that in w.r.t. my stopping distance / safe zone
That is some real good advice IMHO. Adjust your riding to what you are capable of and know the handicaps of your motorcycle.

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Originally Posted by Urban_Nomad View Post
And sometimes you do encounter hazards on our roads that you are unable to spot until the very last minute. In most scenarios, its best to ride it out as opposed to give the bike last minute "HEAVE HO" inputs and totally unsettle it
You can see the same advise in the Riding technique books. It is always better to encounter the hazards with an uncompressed front end. Scrub some speed, get off than saddle. Oh and play the song JUMP by Van Halen in your mind. One more thing - Look before you leap. It is always better to fall down near the speed breaker than to land Motocross style into a busy intersection.
Though the procedure is more difficult with a pillion, a good pillion rider, who contributes to the rider, will have no problem with the procedure. But in our country we have pillion riders who try to pull up the bike when you are sweating to get it into the corner. There is only one solution - You don't either take them with you for rides or to education them and ask them to stay focused during the whole ride.
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Originally Posted by Urban_Nomad View Post
Wish people took more time riding and understanding their machines. Money will buy you a motorcycle, not the skill to ride it ....... Period!
Amen.

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Originally Posted by man_of_steel View Post
Sorry for the misunderstanding man! I should have been more clear. What I actually meant was



Use the rear brake on a cruiser or a scooter more than what you normally do on any other type of bikes! And not 30-70 front-rear usage.

I ride my friend's brand new TB500 when I am back in my hometown and although the rear brake is non-existent, I find myself using the rear brake pedal way more than I do on my 390!
I though that you were advising for panic stops with more rear brake in a cruiser. Sorry for the misunderstanding I use the rear brakes to crawl in city traffic, to brake through loose / slippery surface and to scrub speed during mid corners with the machine leaned over and I must add that these will be in two digit speeds.
regards adrian

Last edited by adrian : 5th February 2015 at 14:01. Reason: Typos
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Old 5th February 2015, 19:07   #34
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Default Re: Harley Davidson brake defect - Dragged to court by Pune businessman

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Originally Posted by adrian View Post
You can see the same advise in the Riding technique books. It is always better to encounter the hazards with an uncompressed front end. Scrub some speed, get off than saddle. Oh and play the song JUMP by Van Halen in your mind. One more thing - Look before you leap. It is always better to fall down near the speed breaker than to land Motocross style into a busy intersection.
Sorry for the back to back posts. We had a network failure at the Office and I couldn't edit / add to my post. Please re-read the quoted paragraph as follows :

It is always better to encounter the hazards with an uncompressed front end. Scrub off some speed if you can, get off the saddle (stand on the foot pegs) and just before encountering the hazard, slightly roll on the throttle to lighten up the front wheel. While you are airborne always remember that tapping the rear brakes will cause your motorcycle's front end to dip and revving up the motor causes the back of the motorcycle to dip.
Sorry for the inconvenience caused.
regards adrian

Last edited by adrian : 5th February 2015 at 19:17. Reason: adding info
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Old 10th February 2015, 03:34   #35
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Default Re: Harley Davidson brake defect - Dragged to court by Pune businessman

Well there can be instances where despite doing safety checks before rides will still get you in trouble. Few months ago while riding my CBR250, my saddlebag raincover's nylon ropes got caught between the brake pads and discs, causing temporary brake fade. I was in a shock when the brake faded on me, despite doing my preliminary checks, since I had no clue what happened behind the scenes. After pulling over, I figured it out, but that was my luck. We should not rule out any foreign object stuck on the pads in Rajendra Singh's case too . I doubt why the HD service engineers would not want to eagerly replace a faded brake. It is business to them, they would do it with pleasure. I had my HD fishtailed at few instances where I applied too much force on rear brakes. This looks like a late braking case to me. Sympathies to her wife.
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Old 26th May 2015, 18:15   #36
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Default Re: Harley Davidson brake defect - Dragged to court by Pune businessman

You do not require to bleed brakes after a pad change. All that is required is one or two applications to move pads up to the disk as to install new pads the pistons are moved back to make room for the new pads, no bleeding required.


Quote:
Originally Posted by black12rr View Post
On a sport bike or super bike, this would have been the case, but if you look at the bike the person has, most of the contact patch comes from rear tyre.

Also to note that, he had a pillion in this case, now most of the weight( rider + pillion + bike ) rests on the rear tyre. So if the rear brake was effective ( assuming it was not ) , most the traction would have been provided by rear tyre and it would have slowed down or stopped in time to avoid jumping over the speed breaker .

PS: There is a reason the bike ( what ever type it is ) is provided with rear brake and it has to be working at 100 % all the time and also used all the time .
The logic, saying it is not needed is incorrect .
There is more braking available with the front brake as the weight transfer forward compresses the forks (diving) putting more weight on the front wheel. This is why bikes have a larger disk or even twin disks on the front and one smaller disk on the rear. Rear brake is used to balance the bike under braking. If you only use the rear brake you will skid and take longer to stop.
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