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Old 1st December 2015, 10:05   #16
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Default Re: Harley-Davidson owners protest against life-threatening Street 750 brakes

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One is expected to ride within the capabilities of one's bike. If exceeded, any bike can be "life threatening". If your brakes are bad, ride slower. If you want to ride faster, get a bike with better brakes.

But expecting a manufacturer to retrofit an older model to keep up with the updates is pretty immature..
There are numerous recalls across the globe for different bikes and manufacturers. HD in general is known for callous attitude towards customer. But saying you know the bikes are weak just dont ride the bike makes no sense. I hope Harley does not say this for they will hardly sell any after that.

The HD750 is one of the best bike out of HD stable. Affordable yet powerful. It has a critical flaw which is its front brakes. The world is going towards ABS, traction control and higher order of safety and here probably HD is going towards be satisfied or just dont buy our bikes attitude.

Every bike has different lemons but in general when the design and parts of the HD from day 1 is poor and sub standard it only makes sense to fix the issue for earlier buyers and loyals.

The 2015 R1 was recalled recently, and over 100K Honda 1000 were recalled for fixing ohlins. Just google for recalls and you will find so many happening just in the last two years. Even the street HD were recalled for something like lack of reflector.

HD has more in stake in a country like india where the sales can jump in numbers with affordability going up.

I would never buy a bike saying to myself, it does not have brakes, let me just push it around.

Another scenario, lets take yourself. You get a bike and one month later they fix the most critical issue of say the brakes. You may be satisfied and be ready to just push the bike around but majority will feel cheated for they trusted HD from the first place.

I am not bashing the model for you can clearly search and find i am an ardent fan of HD and HD750 which i think has huge potential but bad marketing and customer service.

Do they have to do it, may be not. Do we think they should do it, absolutely yes. Its their duty to keep their customers happy and be assured the 2015 and 2014 model are not going to fetch anything in Used market when 2016 rolls out. No one is going to buy a model that has brake issue and the same fixed in 2016.
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Old 1st December 2015, 10:42   #17
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Default Re: Harley-Davidson owners protest against life-threatening Street 750 brakes

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Originally Posted by Surya-TJet View Post
1. One DOES NOT NEED a Benchmark in terms of service. Just because Brand-X does not service their bikes all very well, does not justify other brands behaving the same way. Case in Point - In spite of the Innova being highly over-priced, taxi owners and private customers flock to buy it even today. I think that should showcase the whole point behind "Quality of Service".


2. Imagine you are riding at 100kmph (which is well within the operating limits of most high capacity motorcycles, including Harley) and you see a black dog run across the highway at night (which does happen in India at most places). When you want to come to an urgent stop, it should not be big deal to shed speed, especially in a bike as expensive and legendary as a Harley Davidson.

Cheers and Ride Safe..!!
Interesting you bought up Toyota. I recall a similar scenario regarding Fortuner's brakes. Was there a recall from Toyota?, I don't remember.

As a sidenote, if you come across a dog in such a scenario, you don't have to stop. Just slow down and aim for the middle of the dog. Best chance scenario for both you and the dog.


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Originally Posted by VW2010 View Post
There are numerous recalls across the globe for different bikes and manufacturers.
Do they have to do it, may be not. Do we think they should do it, absolutely yes. Its their duty to keep their customers happy and be assured the 2015 and 2014 model are not going to fetch anything in Used market when 2016 rolls out. No one is going to buy a model that has brake issue and the same fixed in 2016.
Recalls for faulty "components" are normal and usually legally binding.

Brakes comprise a "system". If you can give a specific example of a recall from a manufacturer for upgrading a "system", I would stand enlightened, and it would help the OP with the cause.

If any or all the complainants are able to verify that their failure happened while driving under speed limit and their bike is still road legal, i.e., no SE exhaust, saree guard intact, etc., I would imagine this would be a open and shut case in a court of law. I doubt if that is the case.

If I could get a used HD750 for a steal, and get an upgrade from HD to new brakes for Rs60K, it would still be a good deal in my eyes compared to buying a 2016. Can't comment for all, though.

Cheers

Ride Safe.

Last edited by gthang : 1st December 2015 at 10:43. Reason: grammar
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Old 1st December 2015, 11:18   #18
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Default Re: Harley-Davidson owners protest against life-threatening Street 750 brakes

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Recalls for faulty "components" are normal and usually legally binding.

Brakes comprise a "system". If you can give a specific example of a recall from a manufacturer for upgrading a "system", I would stand enlightened, and it would help the OP with the cause.
No body is talking about what legally applies and that too in a country like India. I don't have records on which company did recalls to fix a system. I know Toyota did a air bag recall which compromised on safety.

There is nothing legally wrong here. Its more towards morality. Again, there will be buyers who will continue to buy HD's. I agree with your assessment of buying used and upgrading.

On the long run HD if gets branded as customer unfriendly their dreams of getting this segment moving faster and higher in sales number may take a hit. That is what probably i am questioning on why its better to take the cost hit for the number of bikes sold in India for it will be fraction of marketing cost and yet create better impact than any advertisements that can create.

And all these wont matter lets say when in 2017 they start selling Fatboy for 10L and other bikes for sane price when this issue does not matter at all. No one will be worried about 750 for they can afford probably the first big engine at 5L
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Old 1st December 2015, 11:25   #19
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Default Re: Harley-Davidson owners protest against life-threatening Street 750 brakes

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Originally Posted by gthang View Post
Interesting you bought up Toyota. I recall a similar scenario regarding Fortuner's brakes. Was there a recall from Toyota?, I don't remember.
The same Toyota recalled millions of Toyota Prius for the "Carpet jamming the accelerator pedal" and the founder issued a heartfelt apology to all customers across the globe. Also, they were the first ones to urge Takata to issue recalls relating to the Airbags.

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Originally Posted by gthang View Post
As a sidenote, if you come across a dog in such a scenario, you don't have to stop. Just slow down and aim for the middle of the dog. Best chance scenario for both you and the dog.
Please note that all of us know these techniques and do indeed apply them in real life. One has to also look at the budding first time biker who might not be so knowledgeable..!!

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Originally Posted by gthang View Post
Recalls for faulty "components" are normal and usually legally binding.

Brakes comprise a "system". If you can give a specific example of a recall from a manufacturer for upgrading a "system", I would stand enlightened, and it would help the OP with the cause.
The "Brakes" themselves are usually a set of "components" designed to work in harmony so that the end result of losing speed and coming to a halt takes place safely.

There have been many brake system related recalls and ABS related recalls by so many manufacturers. You could google and read up about the same.

As far as a "Recall" is considered, the only way is for the manufacturer to remain "Ethical"..!!

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Originally Posted by gthang View Post
If any or all the complainants are able to verify that their failure happened while driving under speed limit and their bike is still road legal, i.e., no SE exhaust, saree guard intact, etc., I would imagine this would be a open and shut case in a court of law. I doubt if that is the case.
Likewise, a two-way communication can happen only if Harley India and Harley Davidson USA call the customers for an open-house meeting and talk to them in person. That is the FIRST POINT in the list of demands placed by various HOG chapters across India..!!

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Originally Posted by gthang View Post
If I could get a used HD750 for a steal, and get an upgrade from HD to new brakes for Rs60K, it would still be a good deal in my eyes compared to buying a 2016. Can't comment for all, though.

Cheers

Ride Safe.
Now, I understand your point of view in this issue and request that we end this textual tussle right here. To each his own views and perspectives. Let us not

I sincerely hope that Harley India and Harley USA come forward and reach a middle-ground with the Street 750 owners.

P.S - I hope you get a good deal and are able to make your rides safer by retrofitting the upgraded brakes and enjoying your ride.

Cheers & Ride Safe
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Old 1st December 2015, 11:32   #20
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Default Re: Harley-Davidson owners protest against life-threatening Street 750 brakes

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Originally Posted by VW2010 View Post
No body is talking about what legally applies and that too in a country like India. I don't have records on which company did recalls to fix a system. I know Toyota did a air bag recall which compromised on safety.

There is nothing legally wrong here. Its more towards morality. Again, there will be buyers who will continue to buy HD's. I agree with your assessment of buying used and upgrading.
So, I take it legality is completely out of the discussion, since we are in India.

I don't necessarily agree with that attitude, but for the sake of argument, I will go along.

So, it comes to Morality. Does this stem from personal policies, or from some precedent behavior by another company?

I am not asking for all recalls, just one instance from anyone that created this "Moral" standard that you are holding HD to.

BTW, the faulty airbag was a component failure recall initiated by legal action.

Cheers

Ride Safe.
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Old 1st December 2015, 12:04   #21
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Default Re: Harley-Davidson owners protest against life-threatening Street 750 brakes

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Originally Posted by gthang View Post
So, I take it legality is completely out of the discussion, since we are in India.

I don't necessarily agree with that attitude, but for the sake of argument, I will go along.

So, it comes to Morality. Does this stem from personal policies, or from some precedent behavior by another company?

I am not asking for all recalls, just one instance from anyone that created this "Moral" standard that you are holding HD to.

BTW, the faulty airbag was a component failure recall initiated by legal action.

Cheers

Ride Safe.
Why should there be a precedent for Harley to initiate a recall? All premium bikes have service related issues but none sold in India have an inherently dangerous and flawed braking system.

Harley not doing anything about it just shows their callous attitude. If it prides itself in being a market leader and an aspirational brand, then it better wake up from its slumber lest they find themselves fighting for survival in India rather than increasing sales volumes on account of aspirational branding.

when you have multiple instances of rear brake pedal breaking, complete loss of braking power and the like, then for anyone to deny that there is a real problem at hand is akin to condoning these negligent acts on behalf of HD
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Old 1st December 2015, 12:26   #22
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Default Re: Harley-Davidson owners protest against life-threatening Street 750 brakes

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Originally Posted by himanshugoswami View Post
Why should there be a precedent for Harley to initiate a recall? All premium bikes have service related issues but none sold in India have an inherently dangerous and flawed braking system.
So you want Harley to set a precedent. Forgive me, but calling a company "Callous" would not be my approach to "request" something that hasn't been done before.

I can empathize with you, things breaking on a bike can be a bummer. If you can vouch that every instance of that happening was not related to rash riding, I can empathize even more.

But to say that HD should do THIS and THAT sounds a little immature in my humble opinion, for a "Premium" bike owner when an upgrade is available to BUY for those that NEED it.

Cheers

Ride Safe.
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Old 1st December 2015, 14:19   #23
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Default Re: Harley-Davidson owners protest against life-threatening Street 750 brakes

Am not sure what you guys are smoking, but brakes are a fundamental component of vehicle, if its a documented piece of flaw, it is the manufacturers responsibility to fix it, manufacturers are recalling a many year old vehicles, if the failures can cause accidents.

I don't see a logic in defending this manufacturer, given that they sell over priced piece of farm equipment.
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Old 1st December 2015, 14:47   #24
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Default Re: Harley-Davidson owners protest against life-threatening Street 750 brakes

Not a HD owner, but a tru-blu biker for sure and definitely alarmed by any issue which impacts safety of fellow bikers.

A search of this forum with keywords 'HD 750 Brake problem' does not reveal any technical discussions about the problem on this forum.

Can any HD750 owner reading this help me to understand the exact fault?

Has a faulty part or a definite cause been identified? Is the problem sporadic or consistent across all pre 2016 models?

More importantly, has a fix been found and what does it entail?
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Old 1st December 2015, 15:30   #25
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Default Re: Harley-Davidson owners protest against life-threatening Street 750 brakes

I have a slightly different view.

1) Customers bought the Harley bikes with the earlier braking system for a fair bit of time before the revised brakes became available. They continued to buy the Harleys through there were many reports questioning the brakes.

2) Harleys do give test rides of the Bike before one purchases. It is simply a case of a vehicle with poor brakes that still pass the Govt standards expected for such a bike to be put up for sale in India.

3) In 2017 they will add ABS too will we expect that to be also provided free of cost?

4) They should provide a specific upgrade pack at x cost for owners of their earlier bikes. Expecting this free of cost is a bit too much.

5) Toyota Fortuner similar had poor brakes. And similarly they too have an upgraded solution for newer fortuners. They provide customers of previous vehicles option to upgrade to new setup at a cost. That is all that can be expected. A lot more Toyota fortuners on the road and it is a much bigger company as well - The World No1. infact HD is only following the example set earlier and accepted by all.
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Old 1st December 2015, 19:31   #26
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Originally Posted by ACM View Post
I have a slightly different view.

1) Customers bought the Harley bikes with the earlier braking system for a fair bit of time before the revised brakes became available. They continued to buy the Harleys through there were many reports questioning the brakes.

2) Harleys do give test rides of the Bike before one purchases. It is simply a case of a vehicle with poor brakes that still pass the Govt standards expected for such a bike to be put up for sale in India.

3) In 2017 they will add ABS too will we expect that to be also provided free of cost?

4) They should provide a specific upgrade pack at x cost for owners of their earlier bikes. Expecting this free of cost is a bit too much.

5) Toyota Fortuner similar had poor brakes. And similarly they too have an upgraded solution for newer fortuners. They provide customers of previous vehicles option to upgrade to new setup at a cost. That is all that can be expected. A lot more Toyota fortuners on the road and it is a much bigger company as well - The World No1. infact HD is only following the example set earlier and accepted by all.
This argument, while makes perfect sense, goes against the point of having a recall policy.

The point of a recall is to fix something that's not up to the mark.

Yes, when Harley owners are spending tons of cash on SE pipes and bling, this is a small price to pay to get potentially life saving brakes but the point I'm trying to make is that that the product was not up to the mark in its initial form is to penalize early adapters.

If Harley, which seemingly entered into the smaller displacement segment, to eventually get those owners to upgrade and stay within the circle, this would go a long way in promoting good will and probably keep those early adopters happy.

Many a good brand has been massacred thanks to poor customer satisfaction. If I was running HD, the fix would be worth bearing for the goodwill it'll generate. This way it's just going to backfire.

Last edited by djpeesh : 1st December 2015 at 19:34.
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Old 1st December 2015, 19:46   #27
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Can you give an example? Been thinking hard, can't think of any
Please go through and search for thread named "Global Recalls". This thread contains all the recalls pertaining to different issues that are found by manufacturers at a later stage but to safeguard customers a feedback was announced.
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Old 1st December 2015, 19:51   #28
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Default Re: Harley-Davidson owners protest against life-threatening Street 750 brakes

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Many a good brand has been massacred thanks to poor customer satisfaction. If I was running HD, the fix would be worth bearing for the goodwill it'll generate. This way it's just going to backfire.
Maybe HD is hoping that like the faulty brakes, this PR crisis too will quickly fade away.

But seriously, if this group of complainants can nail the issue down to specifics say, a manufacturing or QC fault with the help of some experts, it will go a long way in getting HD to respond quickly to their demands.

Right now it is shaping up as a case of subjective opinions of a group of dissatisfied owners vs HD who will try to dismiss this as regular wear & tear or worse - as improper use of equipment, even if the matter is taken to a consumer court.
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Old 1st December 2015, 22:55   #29
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We have been granted a meeting with Mr Vikram Pawha, MD HDI on Thursday. Will update post that meeting. Hopefully HDI will resolve this issue soon.
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Old 1st December 2015, 23:53   #30
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Default Re: Harley-Davidson owners protest against life-threatening Street 750 brakes

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We have been granted a meeting with Mr Vikram Pawha, MD HDI on Thursday. Will update post that meeting. Hopefully HDI will resolve this issue soon.
That is a nice development Himanshu!

How about the status on data collection for submission to Mr Pawha? Any action plan on the meeting?
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