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Old 10th April 2016, 22:45   #76
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Default Re: Triumph Street Triple - Severe stalling issue

You really have a nack for imagination, fired and court case wow. Chill dude. You quote my statement and say in your words the way you feel or think. But lease comment if you have something constructive or positive input. English is quite simple to understand if you put some sense into it while reading.
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Old 10th April 2016, 23:19   #77
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Unauthorized communication about a problem in product / unpublished and unauthorized solution to a problem related to a product by any one is all day long mega case for getting fired and land in deep trouble in automobile OEMs. You are made to sign secrecy bond before joining.
Anyway, constructive I have already posted. Someone should get a PC5 and try a richer map.
I just wanted to know if you really knew someone in Triumph worth knowing.
Let's move on.
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Old 10th April 2016, 23:35   #78
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Default Re: Triumph Street Triple - Severe stalling issue

I also said that person was new in my list for creditable info so didn't want to spread false rumours. Cleaning Tbody resolves it for a while and I know it for sure, Jaggu confirmed it too.

Hey don't we have any forum member who is into mapping and stuff related to it?
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Old 12th April 2016, 11:14   #79
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Default Re: Triumph Street Triple - Severe stalling issue

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Originally Posted by Randhawa View Post
Two months ago I said I will tell what is causing it and I have said what it is.
Where exactly did you explain the root cause? Your imaginative guess below? Sorry but that's just too wild a guess and Dustom has already explained why that doesn't fly.

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but if I had a triple then probably I would have got a solution by now.
And how would you have done that my friend? You assume that the dozens of Striple owners are not trying actively to figure out the solution. There are owners who have lent their bikes to Triumph UK engineers and yet we don't have a solution!

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let's say if ecu gets reading from Tbody by whatever sensor....... Then it will try to correct itself by altering timing/fuel ratio and during that it will cause paralysis due to random inputs within a second..
Random inputs within a range are expected behaviour in mixed driving cycles and ECUs don't conk off and shut down for these cases.


I own a Striple too and have had the stalling problem on and off - not as frequent as some of the other folks but shows up once in a while and then the bike proceeds to not start at all. Triumph India replaced the battery a few months ago and it worked fine for a while and the bike died again.
Now, I am on a 5 weeks+counting wait for a new starter motor because apparently that's gone bad. And Triumph won't cover that under warranty because my 2 years have elapsed last month and even though the issue was reported well before that, they don't care. I don't mind paying for the solution if it truly resolves all the issues around the bike but my concern is that Triumph India is completely clueless and experimenting for a solution with our bikes as guinea pigs.
This situation, added to my issue last year when the engine seized because Triumph couldn't even detect a minor issue, has completely taken away any faith I had in Triumph India. If not for just how lovely the Striple is to ride (when it does ride!), I would have sold it by now. Like the many others who are already doing it.
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Old 12th April 2016, 11:58   #80
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Default Re: Triumph Street Triple - Severe stalling issue

Nice to see some heated but constructive discussion going on, just to update a few of us have decided to go legal and file a formal complaint against Triumph India in the H'ble Consumer Forum of the country if you would like to be a part of a private whatsapp group where we are discussing this predicament please dm me and i'll get you added there.
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Old 12th April 2016, 12:53   #81
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Default Re: Triumph Street Triple - Severe stalling issue

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Originally Posted by niranjanrvce View Post
This situation, added to my issue last year when the engine seized because Triumph couldn't even detect a minor issue.
We have now received some more useful and important info here.
I would like to know what was the minor issue that led to engine seizure. What was the root cause established for such a quick engine death ( Would like to know the total mileage when it happened).
Secondly I would also like to know if your bike underwent the so called power upgrade, what all was done. Was Striple even part of power fiasco?

Also when you say it doesn't start after it shuts down randomly, I would like to suggest that you bring the key all the way to off position, wait 5-10 seconds and then switch on again and try the starter button.
ECU has something called Starting enrichment, which makes AFR richer just for starting ( Usually bring it to about 11.5AFR @ 85*c engine temp).
So starting AFR varies from 11.5 to 13 based on engine temp and Incoming Air temp and Height above sea level. While normal riding AFR is 14.6/14.7
This is called starting cycle and is active for about 30 Seconds after start.
But If engine shuts down and you immediately try to start it, Starting cycle is not activated as ECU has not shut down.
I believe you bike would be having no problem starting in morning after an over night break. Is this correct?

To the issue of shutting down randomly while throttle is near Idle or fully closed, If I were to give it an educated guess, First thing I would look into is Deceleration Enleanment feature of modern ECUs.
As we have acceleration enrichment, where ECU brings the AFR to about 12.5 whenever it senses sudden change in MAP pressure / Sudden Increase in throttle position etc, similarly ECU leans the mixture by about 15% while decelerating.
But this feature works well when your AFR is in range of 12-13.5 on Idle, Which generally is the case on most automobiles. Mixtures are kept slightly rich on 0% throttle and RPM near Idle. For most of the other range it is kept at 14.6, which leads to efficient and complete combustion.
But if you keep 14.6 AFR near Idle with 0% throttle, The deceleration enleanment will further lean it to 15 or 16 afr which results in poor combustion and shutting down.
That is why I have suggested someone should get a ECU tuner like PC5 or something and run a richer tune. There is absolutely no harm in having a Tuner and running a custom map even if does not solve the issue of random shutdowns. These 400$ are well worth it.
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Last edited by dustom_99 : 12th April 2016 at 12:58.
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Old 12th April 2016, 14:37   #82
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Default Re: Triumph Street Triple - Severe stalling issue

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Originally Posted by niranjanrvce View Post
Where exactly did you explain the root cause? Your imaginative guess below? Sorry but that's just too wild a guess and Dustom has already explained why that doesn't fly.


And how would you have done that my friend? You assume that the dozens of Striple owners are not trying actively to figure out the solution. There are owners who have lent their bikes to Triumph UK engineers and yet we don't have a solution!


Random inputs within a range are expected behaviour in mixed driving cycles and ECUs don't conk off and shut down for these cases.


I own a Striple too and have had the stalling problem on and off - not as frequent as some of the other folks but shows up once in a while and then the bike proceeds to not start at all. Triumph India replaced the battery a few months ago and it worked fine for a while and the bike died again.
Now, I am on a 5 weeks+counting wait for a new starter motor because apparently that's gone bad. And Triumph won't cover that under warranty because my 2 years have elapsed last month and even though the issue was reported well before that, they don't care. I don't mind paying for the solution if it truly resolves all the issues around the bike but my concern is that Triumph India is completely clueless and experimenting for a solution with our bikes as guinea pigs.
This situation, added to my issue last year when the engine seized because Triumph couldn't even detect a minor issue, has completely taken away any faith I had in Triumph India. If not for just how lovely the Striple is to ride (when it does ride!), I would have sold it by now. Like the many others who are already doing it.
I think few people are having issues with my post by simply not getting clear statement by me. People have figured what is causing the issue so I didn't think clearly stating it after two months by me again would have helped anyone. By concurring with Jaggu's post about the issue was me saying what it was.

Stalling issue is related to throttle body. That is what is causing the issue when it's dirty. But why is as per ones understanding or personal experience.

How many times have you seen automobile companies in India or abroad with ecu issues. Many had and the ecu was remapped to resolve issues. Ecu is just the brain and you can teach it the way you want it to respond.

Way back in 1998 when I had Daewoo Cielo, I use to clean it's idle valve every 10k. If I didn't do it then sometimes it would idle rough and stall. But I am sure
Some would say they never cleaned it and never had any issues. My Punto had issue with its speed sensor and car started jerking on gear changes as if the gearbox mount had broken. Upon changing the sensor all went well but before that it didn't go into limp mode or reported any error. So I could blame the ecu or its map but it's the way it chose to respond.


I don't know how much and to what extent people have gone to find the fault. I can not speak for you or the rest of your abilities, talent, observation and gifts if any. Speaking about myself, yes I am very capable of getting results.

But I feel the pain for rest of the Tripple owners and frustration caused by lack of support or response by Triumph. Considering you had multiple issues on your bike and Triumph backing out. Technically you can take them to court if you have proof that you reported the issue earlier.. I hope you get your bike back on road soon, good luck with that.
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Old 12th April 2016, 15:12   #83
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Default Re: Triumph Street Triple - Severe stalling issue

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Originally Posted by Randhawa View Post
I think few people are having issues with my post by simply not getting clear statement by me.
No one is having issues with your post, and no one is waiting for your statement as you are not Triumph's official spokesperson, I though you could be of some use. That's all.

How many times have you seen automobile companies in India or abroad with ecu issues. Many had and the ecu was remapped to resolve issues.
Companies cant do ECU remapping at their own sweet will. A tune or map is what controls pollution and performance character of an engine. Both of them are homologation items.
Unless you confused yourself with Firmware update to a remapping job.
Most companies do firmware updates to prevent software bugs , it does not change or alter whatever EFI control data the car has. If they change the data that controls the engine and EFI things, they make the user sign an agreement


Way back in 1998 when I had Daewoo Cielo, I use to clean it's idle valve every 10k. So Daewoo cielo had a ECU controlled stepper motor to regulate Idle? Damn, then it was a car much ahead of its time.
Cleaning throttle body every 1k or 2k km is fine by me if Triumph gives it in writing, updates the service manuals and assures that if done as recommended, no one will have this problem repeated.

Last edited by dustom_99 : 12th April 2016 at 15:15.
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Old 12th April 2016, 15:46   #84
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Default Re: Triumph Street Triple - Severe stalling issue

Removing the stepper motor( situated next to the throttle bodies) and adjusting the idling manually can be looked at. A stepper motor takes care of the idling using the ECU. I think I mentioned this somewhere earlier.

Last edited by bigron : 12th April 2016 at 15:56.
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Old 12th April 2016, 21:39   #85
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Default Re: Triumph Street Triple - Severe stalling issue

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Originally Posted by dustom_99 View Post
What was the root cause established for such a quick engine death ( Would like to know the total mileage when it happened).
Triumph never gave me an official reason. I had fight tooth and nail and get a completely new engine since I didn't trust them to do a proper engine rebuild in their Manesar factory. The issue was that I started noticing heavy vibrations and took it to the SVC - they just refilled coolant and gave the bike back to me. They kept saying the coolant was the culprit and would fill it up to max on a cold engine! This happened for quite a few times and each time the bike would spend a few weeks at SVC and come back with them claiming they fixed everything.The vibrations then became metallic sounds from the engine and I had stop midway in a ride and tow the bike. The engine had seized.
My take is that the timing belt had some problem that caused mis-aligned valves that was never detected by them inspite of me asking specifically to check this. The mis-aligned valves eventually damaged the pistons and cylinder heads and I ended up with metal shavings in my engine. All this happened with less than 6K kms on the odo.
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Secondly I would also like to know if your bike underwent the so called power upgrade, what all was done. Was Striple even part of power fiasco?
Striple was heavily hit in the power fiasco. Claimed 105 was actually 79PS. Mine was stock when it seized but the new engine now runs Arrows with the arrow map.
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I believe you bike would be having no problem starting in morning after an over night break. Is this correct?
No I have actually tried this and the bike doesn't start even after an over night break.

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Originally Posted by dustom_99 View Post
But if you keep 14.6 AFR near Idle with 0% throttle, The deceleration enleanment will further lean it to 15 or 16 afr which results in poor combustion and shutting down
That is why I have suggested someone should get a ECU tuner like PC5 or something and run a richer tune.
Your explanation makes sense and you might be on to something here. Deceleration enleanment should kick in exactly when the stalling issue occurs which is when you get off the throttle a bit. But there are a few things - the stalling happens with stock map, arrow map as well as UK spec maps! So wonder how all the maps ended up with it? The AFR would vary with these maps and the deceleration enleanment should behave differently no?
Btw, the bike runs a little rich with the arrows, you can hear the pops on deceleration.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dustom_99 View Post
Cleaning throttle body every 1k or 2k km is fine by me if Triumph gives it in writing, updates the service manuals and assures that if done as recommended, no one will have this problem repeated.
Exactly - if Triumph gives an official solution, we can adhere to that. Right now, it is complete silence.

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Originally Posted by bigron View Post
Removing the stepper motor( situated next to the throttle bodies) and adjusting the idling manually can be looked at.
Yes many SVCs have started bumping up the idle to close to 1500. Mine was idling there too - in fact it idles so high that even leaving the clutch slowly makes the bike jump a bit!

Last edited by niranjanrvce : 12th April 2016 at 21:42.
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Old 12th April 2016, 22:14   #86
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Default Re: Triumph Street Triple - Severe stalling issue

Wow this is going to be a long one replying lol

Quote:
Originally Posted by dustom_99 View Post
It could even be ignition timing as well. Knock events are registered in ECU short term memory and revised timing is applied to timing correction table.
Who knows, without data it is all speculation.
It might even be a legal hassle for Triumph to sort out. Since it is not above 800cc, it is Homologated by Indian agencies. May be they Homologated wrong ECU map and now can't change it at their will.
I run stock UK/US spec. Intakes, exhaust end can and ECU map. Still randomly stalls.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dustom_99 View Post
Any one here got a PC5 or other AFR device? If it is AFR related problem, it should solve it, even if doesn't, it wouldn't be bad to have a PC5 for your bike.
Post 2014 bikes need unlock code for any of this to work, otherwise it gives out only basic details like rpm, engine temp etc that can be read by tools.

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Originally Posted by dustom_99 View Post
Usually idle control is not active while riding. That is why you have slightly higher rpm if the bike is moving, with clutch pulled in/ or in neutral. Rpms do not drop to exact idle rpm on the run.
Let me know if they do drop to exact idle even while coasting with bike in neutral and throttle closed.
Nope not on Triumphs i have ridden including Tiger, idle comes back to the set one as soon as you cut throttle, ridden or at stand still.

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Originally Posted by Randhawa View Post
Tbody resolves it for a while and I know it for sure, Jaggu confirmed it too.

Hey don't we have any forum member who is into mapping and stuff related to it?
Yes throttle body clean raises idle for a while before its settles to normal 1200 while warm.

And as i said we have people, we need ECU lock work around.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dustom_99 View Post
To the issue of shutting down randomly while throttle is near Idle or fully closed, If I were to give it an educated guess, First thing I would look into is Deceleration Enleanment feature of modern ECUs.
====
That is why I have suggested someone should get a ECU tuner like PC5 or something and run a richer tune. There is absolutely no harm in having a Tuner and running a custom map even if does not solve the issue of random shutdowns. These 400$ are well worth it.
Like i said no such deceleration assist and tools we have, need the unlock.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bigron View Post
Removing the stepper motor( situated next to the throttle bodies) and adjusting the idling manually can be looked at. A stepper motor takes care of the idling using the ECU. I think I mentioned this somewhere earlier.
Yes discussed in forums abroad also. Just like good ol carbs, i replicate this using throttle control when issue pops up

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Originally Posted by niranjanrvce View Post
Deceleration enleanment should kick in exactly when the stalling issue occurs which is when you get off the throttle a bit. But there are a few things - the stalling happens with stock map, arrow map as well as UK spec maps! So wonder how all the maps ended up with it? The AFR would vary with these maps and the deceleration enleanment should behave differently no?
Yup why across maps and bikes.

Quote:
Btw, the bike runs a little rich with the arrows, you can hear the pops on deceleration.
More than that smells rich on arrows. Stock UK map i run pops but no rich smelling exhaust.


Quote:
Exactly - if Triumph gives an official solution, we can adhere to that. Right now, it is complete silence.
One of the WORST manufacturer i have seen!

Quote:
Yes many SVCs have started bumping up the idle to close to 1500. Mine was idling there too - in fact it idles so high that even leaving the clutch slowly makes the bike jump a bit!
This is not deliberate, happens and once ECU learns in few cycles settles down to 1200 rpm, usually within 100 kms.
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Old 12th April 2016, 23:07   #87
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Default Re: Triumph Street Triple - Severe stalling issue

Man you just killed a theory! every thing else is perfectly explainable. Like having same problem on different Tunes.
But the bike should start after cooling down even if tune is lean. Since Starting cycle enriches most vehicle by quite a lot actually.

We can park the engine seize episode since we do not know what was exactly wrong.
On the different tunes- If the closed loop & adaptive learning is switched on in the tune, it will eventually learn and bring the AFR to 14.6, no matter by what amount the VE is increased.
I have studied hundreds of tunes from all over the world for my turbo project, tunes provided by companies / exhaust vendors and Tuner device manufacturers correct the VE- Volumetric efficiency tables, This table tells the ECU how much is the air flow through the engine with hardware changes like Exhaust/ air cleaner upgrades or Head porting and things like that. This works like a charm in most of the cases.
What they do not change is the AFR table, and other bits in the tune. They do not require to change it, as correction made to VE table takes care of extra air flow. They also want ECU to learn corrected air flow on its own, which can take care of difference in air flow due to poor installation of product ,leaks in air flow etc. SO they do not touch this AFR table.
SO in this AFR table every cell with a value 14.6 or 14.7 is part of self learning curve, punch in any other value other than these and that area of MAP is saved from adaptive learning.
SO no matter what tune you have , it will eventually learn and the AFR will be brought to 14.64 for all cells having 14.6 in AFR table.
As I told you before, AFR table near Idle is richer, But if triumph is having an AFR table which says 14.6 for 0% throttle and near Idle revs, then deceleration enleanment be create problems by leaning it by another 15 or so percent. O different tunes, it will just take different amount of time for ecu to learn.
Most of the private tuners around the world disable adaptive learning, a thing you can do if you are really confident that you have your VE table spot on and do not want ecu to learn anymore.

By artificially increasing the Idle with manipulation of throttle cables or throttle butterfly, which I hear Triumph workshops have been doing, they can prevent Throttle sensor from hitting 0% cell. It is maintained at 1% or so.
There by preventing Normal Idle control and if ECU isn't going to 0% table, deceleration enleanment is not enforced as well.
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Old 12th April 2016, 23:54   #88
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Default Re: Triumph Street Triple - Severe stalling issue

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Post 2014 bikes need unlock code for any of this to work, otherwise it gives out only basic details like rpm, engine temp etc that can be read by tools.

more than that smells rich on arrows. Stock UK map i run pops but no rich smelling exhaust.
.
So who generates this Unlock code?

On the rich smell, as I said Starting cycle increases fuel by quite a lot, I guess people must be smelling rich right after starting. I don't know if someone will actually stop while on a long ride with engine fully warmed up and smell the exhaust.
Petrol smell at starting does not mean the tune is rich, it just means bike is under starting cycle and warm up.
On popping- Atleast on Harley Davidsons, exhaust pops have always meant lean for me.
India has over 20 Harleys running which were tuned by me, most of them were done after I did their 1250 conversions and fancy exhaust installs,2 Dynas were tuned for Popping specifically, after their owners installed aftermarket exhausts and loaded the recommended map.
Anyone who ever tells me that he has popping on deceleration(Both dynas had popping ), I simply richen the VE & disable certain features and no one has reported back with popping after that. Although I know there are two schools of thought on exhaust popping, for me I am yet to see a bike which popped and auto tuner reduced the VE(meaning bike was rich). For me if it pops, its lean.
But anyway, a right running bike will never pop at all, even if you run drag pipes. If its tuned right it doesn't pop.
We hear so many enfileds produce loud pops when people go for aftermarket exhausts or remove baffle from them.
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Old 13th April 2016, 10:08   #89
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Default Re: Triumph Street Triple - Severe stalling issue

I did not even know there was a unlock code. I have installed a Bazzaz Z-Fi and ZAFM unit with a wide band O2 sensor. This on a 2015 manufactured Speed and the bike picks up all data as needed.

The Z-fi unit came with a map loaded for the Speed Triple. From there on you have to build it further basis your riding, overall conditions etc.

On the popping front i believe that's normal. Triumphs have a tendency to do so. It's the overrun and also SAI. If you can get block off plates or use the marble technique and seal of the SAI pipe, it should solve the popping. Having said that on the other hand too much of it simply means you need to check your fueling and AFR for sure as mentioned above.

I am struggling to get the right AFR values, its a constant process. Planning on longer rides and hoping to get a decent band of information through gears and revs. Wish there was a Dyno available.

On another note, If you do not want to invest in a PC5 or Bazzaz, you have the option of Tune ECU. Its free, has a thriving community of motorcyclists from around the world. Maps are available. All you need to invest is, in a VAG cable and you should be good to go from there on.
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Old 13th April 2016, 10:28   #90
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Default Re: Triumph Street Triple - Severe stalling issue

Quote:
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So who generates this Unlock code?

On the rich smell, as I said Starting cycle increases fuel by quite a lot, I guess people must be smelling rich right after starting. I don't know if someone will actually stop while on a long ride with engine fully warmed up and smell the exhaust.
Factory tool has the unlock code in it.

As far as smelling exhaust, yes some of us are really crazy that way lol

Quote:
Originally Posted by dustom_99 View Post

By artificially increasing the Idle with manipulation of throttle cables or throttle butterfly, which I hear Triumph workshops have been doing, they can prevent Throttle sensor from hitting 0% cell.
Incorrect information, its just that every time the throttle body is cleaned idle jumps up. I have seen this in front of my eyes (rag and throttle body cleaner was only used), the idle rpm climbs a bit and eventually come down once the ECU completes an adaptive cycle.

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Originally Posted by Odeen12 View Post
I did not even know there was a unlock code. I have installed a Bazzaz Z-Fi and ZAFM unit with a wide band O2 sensor. This on a 2015 manufactured Speed and the bike picks up all data as needed.
You can plus piggy backs, you cant manipulate or write on the stock map without an unlock.

Quote:
On another note, If you do not want to invest in a PC5 or Bazzaz, you have the option of Tune ECU. Its free, has a thriving community of motorcyclists from around the world. Maps are available. All you need to invest is, in a VAG cable and you should be good to go from there on.
We have used Tune ECU through OBD to connect and read, but like as i said only basic parameters only comes through.
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