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Old 17th February 2017, 18:07   #31
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Default Re: Advice: Getting family approval for a Superbike!

anyone with a stable job with around 8 - 10 lacs p.a income can make it happen. A superbike is financed with pretty much the same structure as a sedan loan. For most members and visitors of this forum, this might not be far out of reach.

Something I have noticed with this forum is that many bhpians seem to buy new bikes with finance.

Superbikes are really just a toy, and for me it is hard to justify a large financial commitment to such an indulgence. Because British culture is different to Indian culture, I would have less convincing to do with family, but for me it is harder to convince myself! Because they are a toy, they do not usually rack up loads of miles and wear, so many older bikes are in good condition and just seem to offer a lot more value.

Surely as the Indian big bike market matures, older bikes will become available in good condition and the whole experience is then a lot more attainable? Would somebody earning 8-10 lacs not be more sensible to save up for a couple of years, then buy a used bike & own it outright, and not have a finance package draining their income?

I can buy any new bike I want without financing it. I could buy some quite exotic cars too, but I am happier balancing the enjoyment I can get from cheaper vehicles with building good financial security for the future. I do not drive about in a nasty basic car - I have a top spec 2010 Lexus GS450h, but I got this when it had reached 5 years old. It was a 40+ lac car when new, I got it for 14 lacs with just 30,000 miles in perfect condition with full Lexus history and 2 year Lexus warranty. I could have bought a new one, but what is the benefit to me? I keep it for 5 years and it has lost 25 lacs in value what a waste! I will let some other guy waste that.

With bikes, in the UK market, I find you can buy a 5 year old model with only 10,000 miles on the clock for maybe 40-50% cheaper than new. So if you buy a new one with finance for 10 lacs, and keep for 5 years, keeping it in good condition, it will have lost 4-5 lacs in value. When you finance this, you must add the interest, which perhaps makes it 5-6 lacs true cost. If you buy a nice 5 year old bike for 5 lacs in cash, in another 5 years it will still be worth 3 lacs if you look after it, true cost to you is 2 lacs.

Is it REALLY worth 3-4 lacs MORE to have the newer bike? If you earn 8-10 lacs pa then you are really spending 3-6 months of your life working JUST to have a slightly more flashy bike in your life? How does a 2017 superbike enhance your life so much more than a 2012 superbike would? The pace of development in bikes is really quite slow, it's not like going from a Hindustan to an M3!

Am I missing something here guys?
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Old 17th February 2017, 23:21   #32
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Default Re: Advice: Getting family approval for a Superbike!

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Originally Posted by Rob UK View Post
anyone with a stable job with around 8 - 10 lacs p.a income can make it happen. A superbike is financed with pretty much the same structure as a sedan loan. For most members and visitors of this forum, this might not be far out of reach.

Something I have noticed with this forum is that many bhpians seem to buy new bikes with finance.

Superbikes are really just a toy....
Everything you just said makes absolute logic when you are thinking predominantly with your brain. However, what you have to understand is almost every super-bike or an expensive car purchase is a decision dominated by heart than brain. Even in case of cars the purpose is to reach from point A to B with maximum safety in maximum possible convenience. Why do you want to purchase a Porsche when you can do with a Merc which is less expensive. A Merc might make better logical sense in lot of ways; especially ergonomics. Truth is purchase decision is driven by lot of things other than pure logic or purpose. Especially automobiles many a times are considered as an extension of your own personality. Like your clothes or dressing sense which talk a lot about who you are (not true always I guess, but at least that is the social perception). But owning a certain make of vehicle gives a lot of people a particular amount of satisfaction triggered by different perceptions the person might have. So while it might be really difficult to understand for you it actually is quite simple. Sometimes you desire for what you want, not what you need. Human beings are made that way.
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Old 18th February 2017, 00:07   #33
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Originally Posted by Rob UK View Post
...
Am I missing something here guys?
Your logic is absolutely sound, financially. I read it a few times and I don't think you have missed anything logical.
It is indeed an extreme stretch to actually get a Superbike with 8-10 lacs p.a. income, that's where it just gets out of absolutely impossible range.

One cannot much argue with your point that bikes are evolving slowly and there is indeed not much ground shattering progress during last 4-5 years time. The used machine will indeed be a much better value proposition, especially for people like us who are financially stretched very thin.

I feel it depends on an individual's choice and perception of things. Someone has said earlier in this thread that he would prefer renting various different bikes than owning one. That is a point very hard to counter, especially if one is a Superbike aficionado. The only problem is that there are not many reasonable options for renting Superbikes. If that works out, I would rent a few even if I have one for myself.

Somewhat similar situation prevails for used superbikes also. Untill recently, most of the Superbikes on Indian roads were brought in via the grey market route and were services by unauthorized personnel. Moreover (this is just my perception, I could be wrong), most Superbikes had been toys belonging to rich kids only. They often times abused them and did not take care of their bikes properly .

So, it is challenging to find a used Superbike of a particular model and variant which is fairly price, well maintained, not abused, not run much, never been in an accident etc. There is a potential of saving 5 lacs via this route. The potential of loosing 5 lacs seems not less likely.

What you advise will be relevant and useful after another 5-6 years, when machine loving people like us here start selling their bikes. If Crazy_Driver sells his, I might wanna check that out. As of now, this market simply does not exist.

There is one more thing that I care about. While it is true that net Horsepower output and top speed may not have not seen much increase in last few years, some other refinements have come about. Safety features especially. I cannot stress enough how much that matters when riding on normal Indian roads. These refinements make riding more enjoyable as well.

Quote:
Ref:- DucatiMonster Forum Thread - (model comparison related)


Quote:
My Monster 1200 is a better bike on virtually every pragmatic level possible. There's way more usable grunt. A far superior fuel supply. Easier to manage at lower speeds. Easier to manage on the brutal Los Angeles expressways. It's faster. The suspention is vastly better (at least for me and my riding style). It's far, far less finicky on cold morning starts. The seating position is noticeably more upright and (again for me) much, much more comfortable. The seat itself is way more comfortable. The stock exhaust is way more fun than the stock exhaust on the 696. All of that and I think the 1200 is a slightly better looking bike.
All kinds of opinions are there on this thread. I have captioned what supports my point, but one may read all comments to make his own idea.

I used to follow the 796 quite avidly. As per internet, the only possible way it could be ridden is by reducing the sprocket to 14 tee during that time This would immediately kill the warranty and it's not a simple modification to do on a 10 Lakh rupee bike. It was needed if one wanted to ride home from showroom without stalling. The 821 can be ridden behind a scooty unpepped for a while and it won't be a problem. I believe the wet clutch also makes a world of difference.

Sum total what I want to say is, financial sense makes little sense to those who are ready to take up a multi-year followup for a bike.
The marvelous engineers at these ultra premium marquees are re-imagining these machines every single day. I for one would love to taste what they did in the meanwhile to make it worth my long struggle. I am sure you would agree to this part.
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Old 18th February 2017, 21:45   #34
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Everything you just said makes absolute logic when you are thinking predominantly with your brain. However, what you have to understand is almost every super-bike or an expensive car purchase is a decision dominated by heart than brain.
People who cannot afford a car often have a small bike, but a decision to ride big fast bikes comes always from the heart. I am not sure about the stats in India, but in the UK you are about 20 times more likely to die riding a bike than driving a car.

I still ride anyway.

The heart can set all the desires it wants, but the head must set the strategy to achieve many of those desires.

The example I gave, was not to change the dream of having a superbike, but to change the approach to acquiring one. When balancing this up, it is important to consider what other dreams can or cannot be fulfilled as a result of your chosen course of action.

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Originally Posted by sen2009 View Post
Until recently, most of the Superbikes on Indian roads were brought in via the grey market route and were services by unauthorized personnel.
Yes I understand this.

Now that you do have a proper official market though, there is going to be a secondhand market down the line & guys who don't have the means to buy an exotic bike new today could be preparing themselves for the opportunity to buy secondhand without financing.
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Old 19th February 2017, 00:34   #35
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Originally Posted by Rob UK View Post
The heart can set all the desires it wants, but the head must set the strategy to achieve many of those desires.

The example I gave, was not to change the dream of having a superbike, but to change the approach to acquiring one. When balancing this up, it is important to consider what other dreams can or cannot be fulfilled as a result of your chosen course of action.
See again what you said makes absolute sense. But the answer that is in your words itself. Most of the people who buy superbikes are mature enough to figure out that if careful with the purchase, often than not you can experience a superbike with a much smaller hole in your pocket by buying an used one than going for a new one.
In my case when I was to buy my first car, a hatchback, I stretched my already stretched budget by at least 20% to buy a new one considered to be a premium hatchback as per Indian definitions. It was a decision largely from my heart. That is because I felt connected to that car on a personal level. Same was the case when I purchased my first bike a HH CBZ, the very first version. My relatives laughed at me for purchasing a bike with the price of an autoriksha. CBZ , then surely was a stretch for my middle class income family. Again another decision from the heart. But I think I felt very emotional when I sold it after a few years to buy a better one. I am sure I would feel the same emotion when I sell my current two wheeler to buy a better one. Point is, some people get connected to their rides on a different level which no logic, no amount of calculation can help. I am not supporting breaking your bank to experience a superbike. Everyone should buy something that make financial sense as well. But that balance is different for different people. That said, buying a second hand ride is never same as experiencing the new. Its like sort of bringing a dog home. You buy a puppy not an adult one.
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Old 20th February 2017, 15:02   #36
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Default Re: Advice: Getting family approval for a Superbike!

First of all, @sen2009: Congratulations and some beautiful, humorous writing there! Looking forward to more threads from you.

@roby_uk:
What you are saying makes sense, but it is just that the second-hand market for big bikes is not mature at all. Take the example of the Ninja650, that I have been eyeing for close to an year now. It has sold a total of 388 last year in India, wonder how many will reach the used market and in what condition. Pre-worshipped bikes get picked off through references rather quickly for rather high prices. Its all the demand-supply equation. I think we need to wait for bout 4-5 years till the used big bikes market matures and we get a steady supply of good used bikes.
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Old 20th February 2017, 15:35   #37
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Default Re: Advice: Getting family approval for a Superbike!

In Europe etc. it's easier to buy a pre-owned something as they are maintained better there besides there is a good database of pre-owned bikes and cars. Here, bigger bikes have very recently started coming into the pre-owned market hence the choice is very little.
For e.g., I'm dying to buy a good stroker ( NSR, TZ, RZ...whatever) for a very long time but you just don't have those bikes here...! ( forget about spares...!)
Same would be the case if someone for e.g. wanted a nice clean 2002 GSX R ...How would I know it's service history? Has the owner taken care of the full service requirements? How did he find the spares for this bike? If I cant get spares on time for a bike which is hardly 4 years old, how can I expect a bike which is older to be maintained correctly?
Then comes the question of skilled technicians or the lack of them. How many skilled service guys know how to clean and calibrate a throttle body? Or how to replace a clutch housing and the plates inside on a big complicated slipper clutch setup...?
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Old 20th February 2017, 15:40   #38
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Default Re: Advice: Getting family approval for a Superbike!

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Originally Posted by Rob UK View Post

Surely as the Indian big bike market matures, older bikes will become available in good condition and the whole experience is then a lot more attainable? Would somebody earning 8-10 lacs not be more sensible to save up for a couple of years, then buy a used bike & own it outright, and not have a finance package draining their income?
Whilst your above statement may hold valid for most international markets, the superbike and imports evolution has been a bit of a classic case. The supply:demand ratio, buying power of the super rich in India and the greed of the OEMs present here (almost all majors now) has ensured a fairly different scenario.

Circa 2007/08: Yamaha R1 OTR 12- 13 Lacs
Circa 2016/17: Yamaha R1 OTR 27 - 28 Lacs

A buyer in 2007/08 with a 5 - 6 Lac budget holding out for a well kept 2007/08 spec used R1 five years later in 2012 would only still be looking for options that would have saved him 50% from the price 5 years ago. One may occasionally spot a 2008 R1 for 8 Lacs odd but that would have 30000 kms on the odometer with something raggedy about it, and that is the price one ends us saving for a brand new showroom piece over a used example.
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Old 20th February 2017, 15:48   #39
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Default Re: Advice: Getting family approval for a Superbike!

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First of all, @sen2009: Congratulations and some beautiful, humorous writing there! Looking forward to more threads from you.

@roby_uk:
What you are saying makes sense, but it is just that the second-hand market for big bikes is not mature at all. I think we need to wait for bout 4-5 years till the used big bikes market matures and we get a steady supply of good used bikes.
I tend to agree with that. We just do not have enough good second hand choices yet. Am eagerly looking for that.

For me life has come a full circle. My wife and kids are all pestering me into buying a new super bike to go back to my riding days, which was the case three decades back. In 1987 after my engagement the first card i sent to my would be wife read on the first page " You are my second love, the first being Mobikes" and she quotes that every time.

To make matters worse (or better) every time this discussion comes up my wife says she will fund it. I am yet not very sure how much passion will return back and will the money spent be worth it. Also i am still enjoying my Nanook (Creta 1.6 VTVT) so much that i am just not inclined to go for anything new.

Maybe when i see a good deal in second hand market i may jump in.

Last edited by nkghai : 20th February 2017 at 15:52.
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Old 20th February 2017, 15:53   #40
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I think we need to wait for bout 4-5 years till the used big bikes market matures and we get a steady supply of good used bikes.
That sounds about right to me. How long do the finance packages usually run for?

I expect some guys who are happy to accommodate finance payments each month into their spending plans will re-finance and buy again when the first one is paid? Sell old bike as deposit?

I suspect you'll find "she who must be obeyed" (or Home Minister as you guys say!) will influence the secondhand market over time and 'encourage' a few sales... they often tend to take a dim view of fast bikes. Before marriage, all good - they find it exciting... after marriage - Irresponsible! Dangerous! Selfish!
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Old 20th February 2017, 16:17   #41
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Originally Posted by Crankpin View Post
In Europe etc. it's easier to buy a pre-owned something as they are maintained better there besides there is a good database of pre-owned bikes and cars. Here, bigger bikes have very recently started coming into the pre-owned market hence the choice is very little.
For e.g., I'm dying to buy a good stroker ( NSR, TZ, RZ...whatever) for a very long time but you just don't have those bikes here...! ( forget about spares...!)
Same would be the case if someone for e.g. wanted a nice clean 2002 GSX R ...How would I know it's service history? Has the owner taken care of the full service requirements? How did he find the spares for this bike? If I cant get spares on time for a bike which is hardly 4 years old, how can I expect a bike which is older to be maintained correctly?
Then comes the question of skilled technicians or the lack of them. How many skilled service guys know how to clean and calibrate a throttle body? Or how to replace a clutch housing and the plates inside on a big complicated slipper clutch setup...?
I think the big difference in Europe/US etc... is that a lot of bikers and car enthusiasts take pride in doing a fair bit of work themselves. We do have a lot who don't, but many do. I have a full set of tools, a welder, multimeter, OBD2 code reader etc... in my garage, and I work in a bank.

I am currently rebuilding a 1980 Honda in my spare time.

The difficulty you guys have in obtaining parts is certainly a complication. I read recently on another thread the issues Maruti 800 owners used to face when cars were made locally but spares were imported and it cost more than buying the car to buy the spare parts, and I suppose for exotic bikes this will remain the case if the taxes stay the same.

With the strokers, have you seen the price of a good condition RD350 in the UK? They are 5 lacs where as a mint condition 2002 GSXR is 2... supply/demand I guess! If I was in India, I would certainly buy an RD or 2 at the moment

Last edited by Rob UK : 20th February 2017 at 16:19.
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Old 20th February 2017, 16:35   #42
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Yes I did hear from a mate who told me how expensive the RDs are there...! But you get genuine spares for RDs in the UK. How can one justify an Indian built RD350 selling for 3.something lacs online????
I was looking for a slightly more reliable machine like a MBX or RZ or maybe even a TZR...!
Yes, manufacturers are taking the consumers for a ride and charging them exorbitantly for spares and parts citing higher import duties and stuff...which is where intervention from governing authorities is absolutely necessary. I mean I couldn't get a replacement tyre for my FZ1 a couple of years ago as the imports of non-ISI branded tyres was banned...! Why?
Even today, it takes about 15 odd days to place an order and get spares like oil filters and air filter from Yamaha.
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Old 20th February 2017, 16:46   #43
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I am not sure about the stats in India, but in the UK you are about 20 times more likely to die riding a bike than driving a car.
Things are probably worse than that here.

This may not be popular here, but nonetheless.

A Superbike is a potentially lethal weapon to the rider on any road in the world; on Indian deathtraps that go as roads, even more so.

The thing to also understand is one has to graduate to a Superbike, cutting one's teeth on commuter bikes and so on upwards, racking up miles and miles of relevant experience before getting on to one - by miles and miles, I'd say in six digit numbers. And then practice extreme defensive driving. Needless to say, properly attired from head to toe, which is another challenge here, given the climate.

Family approval, IMO, is the least of things; first one must be able to maturely assess one's capability of surviving on one on Indian roads while exploiting at least 75% of its potential. Failing the last bit, why bother except to look cool? There are cheaper and safer ways of doing that.
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Old 20th February 2017, 18:44   #44
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The thing to also understand is one has to graduate to a Superbike, cutting one's teeth on commuter bikes and so on upwards, racking up miles and miles of relevant experience before getting on to one - by miles and miles, I'd say in six digit numbers. And then practice extreme defensive driving. Needless to say, properly attired from head to toe, which is another challenge here, given the climate.

Family approval, IMO, is the least of things; first one must be able to maturely assess one's capability of surviving on one on Indian roads while exploiting at least 75% of its potential. Failing the last bit, why bother except to look cool? There are cheaper and safer ways of doing that.
I came to bikes without thousands of km on smaller machines. The first bike I rode after obtaining a license was over 100bhp. I had been through days of riding lessons and 4 tests though, which is a big difference.

I did also come with experience of racing & drifting cars on race circuits, which taught me a valuable lesson - crashing hurts, it comes out of nowhere, and it happens really quickly.

Having ridden in India, I would never choose a faired sports bike to own there unless I lived near a racetrack with public sessions. If you have ridden in Europe or the states on a fast bike you can see the extreme limitation they have in India.

Cruisers & Retros actually make a lot more sense for Indian roads. In a world where you can buy a 200bhp motorcycle its easy to forget sometimes that a bike like a Bonneville will still easily blow away all but the highest performance cars off the lights.
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Old 20th February 2017, 19:10   #45
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The miles of experience I refer to isn't just to build the capability to ride a SBK; it is to also build the experience necessary of how to survive on Indian roads and the wisdom to understand one's limitations in the face of countless unexpected stupidities of other road users including animals. What may be an airbag sustained fender bender in a car may well be a killer on a bike.

I was parked at the side on a state highway enroute to Goa on a break a few months ago - a country road really - when a convoy of SBKs blew by. Not a large one, maybe half a dozen bikes, but they were doing speeds on an admittedly empty at the time road that I would not attempt in any car. What do they know that I don't was the first thought that came to mind, followed by the second - nothing.

This isn't biker envy; I have ridden extensively in India for over 35 years. I have only stopped because I know that it will take too long to heal if an inevitable minor comedown happens now.
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