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Old 16th February 2010, 03:55   #16
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Sounds like the power commander to me.Which gears do you find the knocking to be more in?
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Old 16th February 2010, 08:58   #17
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Originally Posted by pranavt View Post
Not into bikes. But can you retard the ignition manually? That should fix the knocking and allow you to use fuel with lower RON.
Its a EFI engine with ECU controlled engine management. Technically, you should be able to change the ignition timing, (-4 to +10) according to PowerCommander website with their unit.

I realize that Octane boosters is the solution for now. But hard to find nowadays.

To be honest, I was looking for a better solution. I can solve my individual problem by several methods. Octane boosters, if I can get my hand on some, or make sure I always have a support vehicle following me with a Jerry can of Speed97 , or Power Commander, if possible.

But looking at the larger picture, what about future Harley owners? As Shrini78 mentioned, Harley dealerships are lovingly called "Stealerships" by customers in the US because of their aftermarket accessories/service prices. $200 to program your ECU and increase rev limit!! Can you believe that? But then again, everything is optional. If you want to upgrade, you have to pay and there is an ocean of aftermarket products just for Harley.

I sincerely hope that Harley India is not planning on the same route as their US Stealerships. I already paid $2500 worth of "Harley Taxes"(read = accessories), and I just want a reliable troublefree bike.

I feel that TBhp has the capability and potential with its wide range of members to influence companies like Harley Davidson who, to some extent, are Customer oriented. If this fuelling problem can be solved by Harley, it will mean Happy Riding Days for all.

Lets see what comes out of GTO's request with Harley India.

Last edited by gthang : 16th February 2010 at 09:18.
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Old 16th February 2010, 09:19   #18
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What is the plug rating you are running on the bike? You could try using colder plugs it does help sometimes.
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Old 16th February 2010, 09:33   #19
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What is the plug rating you are running on the bike? You could try using colder plugs it does help sometimes.
I'm running stock plugs now, and not sure of the rating. Will try picking up some different plugs when I pass through Harley dealer next.

Never thought of it, but will try it.

Thanks
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Old 16th February 2010, 10:02   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gthang View Post
Octane boosters seems to be the solution for now...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Berj79 View Post
octane boosters is your only BEST solution..
Do see this thread, especially the video in the first post :

Fuel additives and octane boosters....do they really work?

cya
R
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Old 16th February 2010, 10:51   #21
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Originally Posted by Rehaan View Post
Do see this thread, especially the video in the first post :

Fuel additives and octane boosters....do they really work?

cya
R
I had reviewed that thread before posting mine.

I have to disagree on that test conclusions because the application is different.

My 2 cents:

Fuel requirement type (RON rating) is ECU set in most current engines. They list it as 91 or higher, 95 or higher, etc. If you take an engine that is rated as 91 or higher, and feed it either premium fuel 93 or higher, or increase RON level by additive, it should make no difference to performance, like the video shows. Its like putting Speed97 in an Alto to make it go zoom.
But, on the other hand, if you have an engine rated at a higher RON, like mine (95 or higher), not necessarily for performance, but for emission control, engine longevity, higher compression ratio, etc., and you perform the same test, i.e., increase RON rating of a 93 fuel to 95 or higher by additive, you should see a difference. I say this because I can feel the difference between regular Speed and Speed97.

I am awaiting an opportunity to test my theory, but havent been able to get my hands on any boosters yet.

P.S. To Mods. Thanks for upgrading me to full Bhpian status from Newbie. Appreciate it.

Last edited by gthang : 16th February 2010 at 10:53.
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Old 16th February 2010, 11:46   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pranavt View Post
Not into bikes. But can you retard the ignition manually? That should fix the knocking and allow you to use fuel with lower RON.
Please do not tinker with the bike's fundamentals! Domino effects occur down the line.

Octane booster/ Speed 97 seem to be the best bet yet.
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Old 16th February 2010, 11:48   #23
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A bike/car having a compression ratio of 9.5/.7 :1 cannot be considered as a high compression engine. I have had cars that run a 9.6:1 comp ratio and have been running fine on normal petrol(forget premium). In your case it looks like the place from where you are getting your fuel is not good. I have a 06 R6 and use regular shell unleaded and have never experienced knocking though I have a compression ratio of 12.8:1.

I would suggest that you try filling fuel from some good place if possible if not try sourcing that power commander or whatever that device is and retard your ignition timing slightly. Or better if you could source a good octane booster or high grade Toluene. A liitle amount of toluene will help you boost the octane rating by quite a margin.

However, I would still insist that 9.5/7 is by no means a high comp engine and unless your fuel is bad your engine should not knock!

Cheers
Shrey
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Old 16th February 2010, 11:58   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gthang View Post
Can you give me OWS contact in Chennai?
speedworks-dealers and i think this is the product you need. Octane Booster ( OWS 380 ) OWS Vitamins for your car

SPEED WORKS
Old No 11, New No 18, Wallace Garden
Second Street, Chennai - 34
Ph : +91 - 44 -30281861 / 62
Fax : +91 - 44 - 30281863.
Email:speedworks@osaindia.com, jd@osaindia.com, satish@osaindia.com
PIC : Satish Kumar
Mobile : +91 9383282568
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Old 16th February 2010, 15:21   #25
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Originally Posted by Jaggu View Post
speedworks-dealers and i think this is the product you need. Octane Booster ( OWS 380 ) OWS Vitamins for your car

SPEED WORKS
Old No 11, New No 18, Wallace Garden
Second Street, Chennai - 34
Ph : +91 - 44 -30281861 / 62
Fax : +91 - 44 - 30281863.
Email:speedworks@osaindia.com, jd@osaindia.com, satish@osaindia.com
PIC : Satish Kumar
Mobile : +91 9383282568
Thanks for the contact info. Will try this for sure. I am optimistic about the outcome.

Quote:
Originally Posted by theMAG View Post
Please do not tinker with the bike's fundamentals! Domino effects occur down the line.

Octane booster/ Speed 97 seem to be the best bet yet.
Fully agree with you. I keep my vehicles for a long time, and try not to mess with the basic setup too much. It is the concern for the engine's potential damage due to the knocking that started this search for a solution in the first place.

But as many have already suggested, and my own instinct tells me that octane boosters are the way to go. Now that I have a confirmed source for some, it should be OK.

But as wishful thinking, wouldnt it be great if Harley India could reprogram my ECU for 91 RON? Then all my worries would be over. Naah, I'm sure new ones will crop up
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Old 16th February 2010, 16:20   #26
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I think Octance boosters are the right choice as remprograming will result to different set of issues.

Do let us know how it works once you get it.
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Old 16th February 2010, 18:53   #27
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Retarding the ignition will not cause anything other than less power.
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Old 17th February 2010, 10:04   #28
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Well, I got the info "from the horse's mouth", so to speak. Here's the reply from Power Commander:

The Power Commander does not change the fuel octane rating. Nothing can do that except chemical additives to the fuel. You can sometimes eliminate detonation by adding more fuel( or enriching the fuel mixture) or adjusting the timing, both of which the Power Commander allows you, the user to do. Regards,
Stan Lass Powersports Technical Support
Dynojet Research Inc. Tel: 800-992-4993 Fax: 702-399-1431

So, I managed to find an ebay seller in India with 3 bottles of STP brand Octane boosters. So I have ordered them at Rs450/btl. Send a query to the Chennai supplier for the OWS 380 octane booster. Or can manage to get from Pete's.

Will be back in India first week of March when I will get a chance to test it out.

Was feeling good about things when I stumbled on this: Toluene..my octane booster of choice - SportsCarForums.com

Now I am skeptical again. Will it be really possible to increase from 93 RON to 95 RON? Also, I run the risk of ruining my tank paint finish if I am not careful every time I use the additive.

More research into this shows that the only possible reason for Harley to rate it at 95RON is to get around the stricter EU emission norms with their older design engines. New Japanese engines like my CB1KR has 11.2:1 compression ratio and has only 91RON rating, and it being made in Italy, is also EU spec.

It is common practice in the US and elsewhere for Harley dealers to offer performance upgrade which clearly violates emission, noise and other road legalities. They get around it by placing a "for off-road use only" sticker in the packaging somewhere. Even the Screaming Eagle air filter kit I bought had that disclaimer. So, by that logic, would it not be fair to expect Harley India to offer reprogramming the ECU for Indian fuel conditions after the vehicle is sold? Since then, the company would not be responsible, only the owner.

From whatever info I have gathered online, I dont think changing the fuel rating in the ECU will effect anything else since the US spec bikes are almost the same and run fine on 91 RON. OK, I might have to change O2 sensors, and some minor things like that, but can be done, I feel.

I have tried with my original dealer, but like most dealerships, they have limited technical knowledge, and are more into sales and accessories.

Sorry if I am ranting, but I really wish there was some way I could get to talk to Harley India directly and get a proper technical solution.
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Old 17th February 2010, 15:51   #29
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Sorry if I am ranting, but I really wish there was some way I could get to talk to Harley India directly and get a proper technical solution.
gthang, I've received confirmation from a Harley India Rep. They are looking into a solution and should revert soon.
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Old 17th February 2010, 20:42   #30
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gthang, I've received confirmation from a Harley India Rep. They are looking into a solution and should revert soon.

Thanks GTO. Truly words of encouragement. I have faith in Harley as a customer oriented company and I hope that they dont disappoint.

Regards.
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