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Old 7th March 2012, 13:03   #16
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Default re: Which is the best diesel 4WD (Not AWD) SUV under 22 lac INR?

I would recommend to go for a new vehicle compared to a used vehicle if you want to keep the SUV for a decade or more. A brand new vehicle typically means low maintenance for at-least first 2 to 4 years - which you will miss on a used vehicle.

Reality with Pajero is;
  • a well kept (& genuine) Pajero will not come to market easily and even if it comes, it would be very pricey (say 14 to 20 Lacs).
  • it's true that the spares/ parts are costly (recently it has gone up 20%). Last Saturday; I was in the service center to do 1st month general check-up for my Paj & while generally enquiring - the "PAJERO" stickers on the doors will cost 24K (2 Letters for 8K) to replace!
  • it rattles - and identifying and eliminating them seems nearly impossible (mainly doors and seats). This is basis my recent visit to service center and talking to both service center folks & few other Pajero Drivers. Not saying that it's worse than Scorpio or Bolero!
  • it would return only 7 to 9 kmpl!
So - my suggestion would be to stick to a new vehicle whether it's Scorpio or Pajero or Fortuner and enjoy those intial 2 to 4 years of hassle free ownerhip .

Last edited by maheshramaling : 7th March 2012 at 13:08.
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Old 7th March 2012, 13:18   #17
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Default re: Which is the best diesel 4WD (Not AWD) SUV under 22 lac INR?

Quote:
Originally Posted by StrangeWizard View Post
If you're planning to keep the car for atleast 10 years, then a new one would be your best bet.
I would buy a brand new scorpio if I was in your place. But if you're interested in used cars then you can consider the Endevour too.
Why don't you consider the safari storme?
I too would love to buy a brand new car and if the consolidated decision comes to that, I will just pool in some funds and wait. I have driven the Endy extensively and am not comfortable in it, primarily due to its low seats-high floor combo and the lack of visibility especially in the front.

The Storme hasn't yet been launched and the reports aren't that great.What I would ideally like is a lever shift 4WD, which is not available on the Scorpio either, but it is very reliable vehicle.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mac187 View Post
I would suggest take some time and look for a well mantained Pajero. Once you have a feeling that this (Scorpio) is not what I want. It would stay forever. Hunting for a pre-owned car isn't easy but over a period of time you will find a good deal.
Thanks Mac, well, I m happy with my current ride but with growing age, responsibilites => expenses will only grow, and I want to close the itch of getting a capable lifetime 4WD once and for all now, when I can, kind of, afford it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by maheshramaling View Post
I would recommend to go for a new vehicle compared to a used vehicle if you want to keep the SUV for a decade or more. A brand new vehicle typically means low maintenance for at-least first 2 to 4 years - which you will miss on a used vehicle.

Reality with Pajero is;
  • a well kept (& genuine) Pajero will not come to market easily and even if it comes, it would be very pricey (say 14 to 20 Lacs).
  • it's true that the spares/ parts are costly (recently it has gone up 20%). Last Saturday; I was in the service center to do 1st month general check-up for my Paj & while generally enquiring - the "PAJERO" stickers on the doors will cost 24K (2 Letters for 8K) to replace!
  • it rattles - and identifying and eliminating them seems nearly impossible (mainly doors and seats). This is basis my recent visit to service center and talking to both service center folks & few other Pajero Drivers. Not saying that it's worse than Scorpio or Bolero!
  • it would return only 7 to 9 kmpl!
So - my suggestion would be to stick to a new vehicle whether it's Scorpio or Pajero or Fortuner and enjoy those intial 2 to 4 years of hassle free ownerhip .
Now, that is from the horse's mouth Mahesh.
From what you say, Pajero spares are indeed expensive it seems and a 20% hike certainly doesn't help matters here. But don't they last very long as well, compared to say, M&M or TML spares for example?

Is the FE of 7-9 kmpl reported in the city or on the highway as well? There is one more new Pajero owned by Traveler on the forum who reports FE figures in excess of 10kmpl regularly, across the highway and in the mountains.

Oh, I didn't know Pajeros rattle. That is bad, and rattles which cannot be eliminated, worse.

Overall, things seem to be in favor of a new vehicle here. The dilemma continues...

Last edited by n.devdath : 7th March 2012 at 13:19.
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Old 7th March 2012, 13:26   #18
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Default re: Which is the best diesel 4WD (Not AWD) SUV under 22 lac INR?

Dev just hang in for a bit and consider one of the new Ssangyongs which are due.

Else, you may find that the used market (like Delhi, Bombay, Chennai and other places) will tend to correct further downwards (everywhere else in India except possibly in Bangalore where the prices being asked are verging on the inter-galactic levels!!)

I frankly dont know how much you will end up using the real capabilities of 4WD in the machine, but if you can afford it, it is "nice to have" rather than a real "must have" in the true sense.

One thing is for sure, if one's primary area of operation is the cities, towns and highways with occasional trips into the hinterland, then the combination of bad-roadability and compactness, comfort, safety and luxury is best found in a good cross-over vehicle rather than a big fat SUV.
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Old 7th March 2012, 13:26   #19
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Default re: Which is the best diesel 4WD (Not AWD) SUV under 22 lac INR?

Quote:
Vinod: For the price that they are made, they are certainly very much VFM and I do not mind changing rubbers, fasteners, clips and the like too, but they are simply not available, anywhere. That is the problem.
Dev, Spares shortage has never been a problem here in Delhi at least. I have never faced any problem as such till now with my Safari at-least. Is the situation that bad down south for MM & Tata ?
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Old 7th March 2012, 13:37   #20
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Default re: Which is the best diesel 4WD (Not AWD) SUV under 22 lac INR?

My responses embeded in bold;

Quote:
Originally Posted by n.devdath View Post

Now, that is from the horse's mouth Mahesh.
From what you say, Pajero spares are indeed expensive it seems and a 20% hike certainly doesn't help matters here. But don't they last very long as well, compared to say, M&M or TML spares for example?

It may be too early for me to comment from personal experience but looks like the parts last longer than even other Jap companies (Toyota & others).

It seems; both quality and cost is higher because all Pajero parts are imported directly from Japan and there is no localization for Pajero as told by Service Center folks (even the stickers!). While chatting with some service folks - they say the clutch life can easily touch 50K to 1 Lac Kms - if driven well.

Is the FE of 7-9 kmpl reported in the city or on the highway as well? There is one more new Pajero owned by Traveler on the forum who reports FE figures in excess of 10kmpl regularly, across the highway and in the mountains.

I haven't even consumed my first full tank (92 Lts) but my fuel guage is showing half way & done 400 kms so far only in Bangalore city which is roughly 8+ kmpl. IMO highway drive should increase it by 1 or 2 kmpl. I will confirm that as I take my Paj to Ooty this month end.

Oh, I didn't know Pajeros rattle. That is bad, and rattles which cannot be eliminated, worse.

As, I said - it's not worser than Scorpio or Bolero or Tata vehicles!! I think most (not all) true SUV's rattle since they are built for a different purpose!

Overall, things seem to be in favor of a new vehicle here. The dilemma continues...
Yes - it would be wise to wait & buy a new one rather a used one.

BTW - Paj Sport could be another choice and not sure about exact pricing. Sales guy says it would be roughly 30/ 31+ Lacs exshowroom (does not seem true) and a service guy said 23+ Lacs ex-showroom. If it is 23+ Lacs - guess it is same price range as TFort & current gen Paj - it would be great fight in that segment.

Last edited by GTO : 8th March 2012 at 18:04. Reason: No need to type the entire post in BOLD
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Old 7th March 2012, 13:40   #21
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Default re: Which is the best diesel 4WD (Not AWD) SUV under 22 lac INR?

Dev

I'm curious why you haven't thought about the following cars

1. Aria 4wd
2. Duster
3. Xylo e9 ( I know this is a 2wd, but still you can consider it as you are not considering serious OTR )
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Old 7th March 2012, 13:55   #22
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Default re: Which is the best diesel 4WD (Not AWD) SUV under 22 lac INR?

Considering you intend to keep your next car for a period of 10 years, I highly recommend getting yourself a Scorpio in SLE trim. The quality of plastics / rubber and everything electronic is Mahindra's weak link and I would expect a lot to go wrong in the gizmo filled VLX variant. The SLE is total VFM and is equipped with ABS, but not airbags available on the SLE.

Currently on my third personal driven Scorpio, I can vouch for the Scorpio aging very well if you take good care of it. The MHawk engine is pure bliss and feels at home cruising in 5th gear at 60 kmph and while pushing it at 120 kmph in fourth. The overall balance and ride quality is sorta iffy though, and it will take some getting used to before you woould be metally convinced to push it beyond 100 kmph.
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Old 7th March 2012, 13:56   #23
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Default re: Which is the best diesel 4WD (Not AWD) SUV under 22 lac INR?

Quote:
Originally Posted by shankar.balan View Post
Dev just hang in for a bit and consider one of the new Ssangyongs which are due.

Else, you may find that the used market (like Delhi, Bombay, Chennai and other places) will tend to correct further downwards (everywhere else in India except possibly in Bangalore where the prices being asked are verging on the inter-galactic levels!!)

I frankly dont know how much you will end up using the real capabilities of 4WD in the machine, but if you can afford it, it is "nice to have" rather than a real "must have" in the true sense.

One thing is for sure, if one's primary area of operation is the cities, towns and highways with occasional trips into the hinterland, then the combination of bad-roadability and compactness, comfort, safety and luxury is best found in a good cross-over vehicle rather than a big fat SUV.
Shankar, I m somehow, not sure of the Ssangyongs' quality, longevity and a host of other factors. Enquiring Fortuners at metros seems to a sensible thing to do and I will embark on it very soon.

I know that having a 4WD capability is more of a luxury than the need but since I ve decided that I want it, I d rather have an old fashioned lever shift proper low range 4WD than a crossover/Awd.

My reason for a big fat SUV as you term it, is the amount of space on the inside, the ability to take abuse on the outside and the sense (though passive) they offer over crossovers.


Quote:
Originally Posted by v&v View Post
Dev, Spares shortage has never been a problem here in Delhi at least. I have never faced any problem as such till now with my Safari at-least. Is the situation that bad down south for MM & Tata ?
Let me give you a few examples of not available spares currently for the Scorpio.

Clutch plates.
Right side ORVM
Dozens of plastic clips and fasteners
Brake springs.
Bonnet.
EGR Assy.

And I m not alone. Ask HVK and he faces the same in his Scorpio too, and I d not be surprised if I face the same in a new MHawk bought today say 8 years down the line.

Quote:
Originally Posted by maheshramaling View Post
BTW - Paj Sport could be another choice and not sure about exact pricing. Sales guy says it would be roughly 30/ 31+ Lacs exshowroom (does not seem true) and a service guy said 23+ Lacs ex-showroom. If it is 23+ Lacs - guess it is same price range as TFort & current gen Paj - it would be great fight in that segment.
I m eagerly looking forward to this one too Mahesh however, if it is launched at par with the current Fortuner, it would be out of my range, at the moment. Why do I need to spend upwards of 20L INR to get one decent vehicle?

Quote:
Originally Posted by wild child View Post
Dev

I'm curious why you haven't thought about the following cars

1. Aria 4wd
2. Duster
3. Xylo e9 ( I know this is a 2wd, but still you can consider it as you are not considering serious OTR )
Wildchild, what I will upgrade to will only be a thoroughbred 4WD with a proper low range manual (electronic only if I have no alternative) gearbox and transfer case. Hariya, who is a 2WD, has never let me down and I m completely satisfied with his performance.

Aria- TML product, I hate its looks, pricing and a few more things.
Duster- Cannot trust new comers anymore. I need total peace of mind.
Xylo E9- Hariya is way better than this, no point even looking at it.


Quote:
Originally Posted by manson View Post
Considering you intend to keep your next car for a period of 10 years, I highly recommend getting yourself a Scorpio in SLE trim.
Manson, I completely agree with you here, being a Scorpio owner myself and completely in love wit Hariya, for what he is, but there is no 4WD option in the SLE trim and like I said earlier, spares are a big big issue, which is only increasing with time.

Last edited by n.devdath : 7th March 2012 at 13:59.
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Old 7th March 2012, 14:42   #24
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Default re: Which is the best diesel 4WD (Not AWD) SUV under 22 lac INR?

Note from TBHP Support : Poll options added to thread.
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Old 7th March 2012, 15:01   #25
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Default re: Which is the best diesel 4WD (Not AWD) SUV under 22 lac INR?

Waiting for the Storme may be a wise thing to do, since it seems that the Storme could well be more niggle free than the present Safari, in any case a lot of thought seems to have gone into the Storme while the external appearance hasn't been changed radically, now this could only mean they were working on the out-of-sight aspects such as stability, handling & reliability. Now that would mean something and you also get a middle-bench that is more spacious than the Scorpio. I would put the the Storme as a better on-road handler than even the Scorpio VLX.

then there is another option Force Motors stable, in the Force One 4X4. Now if one is willing to overlook the Chinese panel thingy, Force has always built very reliable engine, transmission systems for 4X4 use and they tend to really withstand quite a bit of abuse thrown at them. The Force gearbox and engines tend to wear (get old) well because the basic underpinning is Merc but without 90% of their sensors and bare almost like the Pajero.

Now for both the Storme as well as the Force One, on road ride quality will be superlative since they are both double-wishbone front suspension, on road ride quality will be innova-like or even better. Both have (or will have when they are launched) lower ratio 4X4 that may be desirable in the wet.
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Old 7th March 2012, 15:17   #26
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Default re: Which is the best diesel 4WD (Not AWD) SUV under 22 lac INR?

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Originally Posted by lurker View Post
Waiting for the Storme may be a wise thing to do, since it seems that the Storme could well be more niggle free than the present Safari, in any case a lot of thought seems to have gone into the Storme while the external appearance hasn't been changed radically, now this could only mean they were working on the out-of-sight aspects such as stability, handling & reliability.
There are very few vehicles that beat the middle bench comfort and space of the Safari. Period.
My concern however, would be the fit and finish, age old known and niggling issues with the 2.2 ltr engine and most importantly, I would NEVER buy the first version of a new car from ANY Indian manufacturer. If it can be the Storme, the time is at least 2 years away from its launch.

Could you please vote in the options provided and let me know what you think of the choices that have been shortlisted.

And I TDed the F-1 last week and the 7k kms done TD vehicle was rattling away to glory from all its plastic components. So that is out of the question too, at the moment.

Last edited by n.devdath : 7th March 2012 at 15:19. Reason: Force One Test drive.
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Old 7th March 2012, 15:35   #27
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Default re: Which is the best diesel 4WD (Not AWD) SUV under 22 lac INR?

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Originally Posted by n.devdath View Post
Could you please vote in the options provided and let me know what you think of the choices that have been shortlisted.
It depends on your height, if your 5'5 - 5'8, the scorpio could satisfy. Else I do not like any of the 3 options since a second-hand fortuner would be really hard to come by. I hope you really rule out the Pajero, since apart from handling and true 4X4 prowess, it really has a dim future in India, every now and then the company or it's Indian partner seem to be giving scares to its customers of winding down operations in India. It's really good car but the issue of support is critical.

As for the Force One SUV rattling away to glory, TD vehicles are meant to be driven purposely into potholes to show how settled they are and more so in case of Force One. So that is not what an actual vehicle owner would be subjecting his own vehicle to. What you need is feedback from an actual owner who has clocked 10K-20K on his ride to check what is the actual state of rattle.

As for selecting Ver 1.0 vehicles from Indian manufacturers is concerned, just be sure to either select from the first lot or wait for an year or so to pass. The first batch will have good production quality since the seniormost techs in the company will be assembling those vehicles and they would want the parts to be reliable since it is these vehicles that will build the brand in the market. It seems that after the initial hurdle of productionising and marketing has been passed, assembling is handed over to those who will learn on the job and the company also is more keen to make a buck and pushes the vendors for cheaper parts.
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Old 7th March 2012, 15:38   #28
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Default re: Which is the best diesel 4WD (Not AWD) SUV under 22 lac INR?

I so far am the only person who has voted for the used Paj.

My order of preference would be the following

1) Used Paj or used Fortuner
2) New Paj or new Fortuner
3) New Scorpio

My logic for it goes as follows.

If the used vehicle has been maintained well, it will definitely last another 10 years. What you gain is the lack of depreciation (first owner takes that) and lose is to some extent peace of mind (may or may not be under warranty) of a new car. The advantage of a used vehicle is of course cost, but the negative is you will need to wait and find a good example.
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Old 7th March 2012, 16:40   #29
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Default re: Which is the best diesel 4WD (Not AWD) SUV under 22 lac INR?

Why do you want to go for VLX? As somebody has mentioned, the electronics on Mahindra cars are suspect. Apart from the electronics, the vehicles are built to last, can take in a lot of abuse and very reliable. If I had the money I would go for a Scorpio LX 4wd without all those fancy electronics of the VLX. As far as 4wd shift lever is concerned, I think it can be retrofitted at a later time.
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Old 7th March 2012, 17:36   #30
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Default re: Which is the best diesel 4WD (Not AWD) SUV under 22 lac INR?

Pajero has been on my radar for quite some years, and I hope to collect enough funds to procure one someday. I any day prefer a mechanical beast with minimal electronics, to one with loads of (buggy?) electronics.

For ride comfort I would go with the Pajero any time. Its cruising speed of 120 is good enough for me, and its dexterity on bad roads, more than makes up for its lower FE on highway. A major advantage is its phenomenal low end torque, which means you never have to slip the clutch to get it out of a "sticky" situation.

Regarding spares, be thankful that at least they are available for Pajero, which as you have commented are disappearing for our home grown products.

As an alternative, if you drive carefully and have no need for ABS, the Scorpio Lx 4x4 is the vehicle within your budget, with none of the buggy electronics. http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/4x4-ve...io-lx-4wd.html
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