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Old 6th August 2013, 08:26   #271
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Default Re: Ford EcoSport versus Renault Duster

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ABS & EBD these features are reserved for the Option pack and top ends. Good to have, but not a necessity in our driving conditions. Your life depends on a chip.
Hi!

You sure about this? (The necessity that is)

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Old 6th August 2013, 08:40   #272
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Default Re: Ford EcoSport versus Renault Duster

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Hi!

You sure about this? (The necessity that is)

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Unless you live in harsher terrains with slippery roads or drive too fast. Totally depends on your driving style.

Make a habit not to sudden break by pushing the paddles all the way. If you feel the skid and loss of control, just pump the breaks. Also use the engine power to initially slow down instead of hitting the clutch with the breaks. Have driven in rain, gravel and snow.

Never ever speed on unknown roads. There could be a surprise waiting on the next curve.

ABS is nice to have, helps in emergency, keep good steering control while you foot is jammed on the breaks.

Just my 2 cents
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Old 6th August 2013, 08:57   #273
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Default Re: Ford EcoSport versus Renault Duster

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Unless you live in harsher terrains with slippery roads or drive too fast. Totally depends on your driving style.

Make a habit not to sudden break by pushing the paddles all the way. If you feel the skid and loss of control, just pump the breaks. Also use the engine power to initially slow down instead of hitting the clutch with the breaks. Have driven in rain, gravel and snow.

Never ever speed on unknown roads. There could be a surprise waiting on the next curve.

ABS is nice to have, helps in emergency, keep good steering control while you foot is jammed on the breaks.

Just my 2 cents
With due respect, there is just so much that a human brain can compute. Yours might be able to do this faster, but not mine & am sure there are lots of others.

Emergency situation isn't called upon, it happens & when that situation emerges, very few would be pumping the brakes at that moment, they would be $h!tting bricks then.

And how can you steer your Car in an emergency situation while pumping your brakes? (Without ABS, of course) Have you even tried that? Do you know that many guests and new members will read your this post & one or two might form an opinion, that yes, those safety kits aren't vital and I can manage better on my own.

I would say, you would do a world of good by driving an ABS Car and non ABS Car for long and then make an opinion about and if still you think ABS is not necessary, then I would humbly request you to keep this as a close guarded secret, as most others can't/won't, please

While your explanation of everything else is fine and I do agree about others, save for braking theory. You don't need to compute so much. Let ABS handle that.

And yes, you don't pump breaks, else you would be breaking it, you pump brakes.
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Old 6th August 2013, 09:24   #274
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And yes, you don't pump breaks, else you would be breaking it, you pump brakes.
You have a point I'll reserve my comments in future. For braking, the pumping is not doing a release and apply, that can change the dynamics in speed and sure to lose control, let alone breaking the brakes. Rest assure I've had my share of situations.
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Old 6th August 2013, 10:05   #275
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Question Re: Ford EcoSport versus Renault Duster

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For braking, the pumping is not doing a release and apply

Then what according to you is 'pumping' the brakes in emergency?
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Old 6th August 2013, 10:22   #276
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Default Re: Ford EcoSport versus Renault Duster

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Pretty much agree with you ACM. You drive an SUV for the love of it. For the power and size. So you will never compare a hatch or sedans to your Safari . Because they are different.

The point I try to drive out here is, you just cant compare EcoSport to Duster. They are no way similar nor in the same segment. For that matter currently there is no other car like Duster or EcoSport.

EcoSport is a hatch on steroids while Duster is a wanna be SUV (a crossover). There is no match.

No one ever says Duster is a value for money car, because its a crossover. You like it, you buy it. The butch looks, the ride quality and space.

If you look for jazzy feature list, the sedans do much better in that category. They are fast, are feature rich and now a days with tweaked suspension they now understand the Indian roads. Their hatch variants are even better value if luggage space is not an issue.
Again a different take:

Actually we have all latched on to the hatch on stilts or steroids term but frankly I feel that who over coined it first either meant it for a different type of vehicle or wished to use it in a derogatory sense.

Reasons:

1) The Duster is based on the Fiesta Platform - So why not call it a Sedan on Stilts . (Yep am aware that the Fiesta does have a Hatch version as well.) but the EcoSport is definitely more spacious than the Fiesta so why are we so hung up comparing it with the Figo hatchback. It is not based on the Figo in any manner. Yes am aware that the rear opening is like in a hatch (though again not really since it opens sideways) but then no one goes about calling the Laura or the superb a hatch back due to how the door fully opens vs. the say the Jetta or the Passat.

2) Another major reason why it is NOT a hatch on stilts or steroids is that any hatch back that we have out here in India will have a rough Ground Clearance of about 150mm while the EcoSport has 200mm (making for a difference of just 50 mm roughly but yet any hatch will have a water wading depth of just about 250 mm or so (I guess the Duster, Storme and Safari are all at or below 350mm) but the EcoSport is rated at 550 mm. (same as the Pajero and quite close to the Endy and Fortuner) one cannot cook up these numbers and there has to be significant engineering behind it.) The extra 300 mm or more (1 feet) of Water wading depth over a normal hatch is not though the increased ground clearance of 2" / 5cm but obviously something more.

3) Yes this vehicle as sold in India like the duster presently does not have 4X4 as an option but it does have it internationally the suspension obviously would be engineered to take on the extra stress. (though there can be some mechanical changes in the structure as well between 4X4 and non 4X4 variants.

4) While may of us mention / call the Duster a crossover. For me personally anything that does not have 4X4 is just a Pseudo SUV and not even a crossover. For me a genuine crossover or SUV needs to have 4X4 or AWD atleast. Yes one can say that the Safari, Storme, Duster, Scorpio have the SUV "SHAPE" but really none of them are anywhere close to being an SUV without the 4X4 or AWD. Yep felt the Aria was indeed a genuine Crossover (only in AWD /4X4 form) though it had a shape of an Innova like MUV. The EcoSport is as crossoverish or not or as SUVish or not as the Duster, Scorpio or Safari etc. Yep all of them loose out on some of the essential of actually deserving the tag especially considering that 95% of sales of vehicles with AWD or 4X4 Option comprises variants where the option is not selected.

5) Definitely there is a difference vs. the Larger SUV shapes of the Safari or the Scorpio and even the slightly larger Duster but that can only qualify for calling the larger vehicles large or the smaller ones compact (as in Compact SUV or Urban SUV - as the term coined as a marketing gimmick by the ford guys.) Even the term crossover at some point of time must have been a marketing effort more than anything too technical to justify the first vehicle that came with some non SUVish traits.

Why is the EcoSport a wannabe? while the Duster is a Crossover? Till the EcoSport arrived there were many for whom the Duster was a wannabe SUV - Like me. Yep both are as wannabe as can be. Ask people who have driven vehicles like the Safari, Scorpio, Pajero, Endy, Fortuner or even the Aria for an extended period of time am sure that many of them did not feel the Duster or even the CRV etc. were SUVish or even crossovers though many of them are indeed a good fit on the definition of what most call crossovers.

There are many who besides the shape, ground clearance and water wading capabilities picture a heavy and sturdy door close and a wheel on the back with being an SUV or a crossover. (No offence to the Fortuner (a genuine SUV in my book but like the Pajero, Endy, Previous Safari).

I actually bought the Aria over the Fortuner and Endy at the time for the more SUVish build, and seating position, and yet the Lauraish feature levels. Though the shape was anything but SUVish due to the extra high level of subtle design language employed. The EcoSport in my view is more SUVish than the Aria (and without many of the Dynamic disadvantages of the Safari and the Scorpio) in terms of the shape and definitely not a bit like an MUV and a far cry from a hatch or a sedan and yet it is too small to be taken seriously yet it promotes the minimalist view where it is a better vehicle to be in from all practical point of views if one is going to travel solo most of the time or in a family of 3.5-4.5.

Phew actually one could write a thesis on why the EcoSport is more SUVish or Crossoverish than the Duster AND VICE-VERSA. To each his own. I normally prefer to keep such views to myself but with the number of one is an SUV and one is good VFM posts on the thread felt a different take would be interesting.

Just another take nothing more in this everything goes.
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Old 6th August 2013, 10:35   #277
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Then what according to you is 'pumping' the brakes in emergency?
Guess wrong choice of words. I mean to squeeze the brakes and keep it at the threshold and stop skidding by releasing a little.

Last edited by HillMan : 6th August 2013 at 10:47.
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Old 6th August 2013, 11:34   #278
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Default Re: Ford EcoSport versus Renault Duster

Voted for EcoSport Because I own it

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/test-d...ur-garage.html
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Old 6th August 2013, 12:04   #279
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Default Re: Ford EcoSport versus Renault Duster

Most of the calculations of Duster overpricing in India were at the time of launch and price revision when the Rupee/USD was 55, now with the free fall these discussions are moot.

I think I may have posted a comparison of prices in UK, France, Romania in some thread. I will look for that. Also unlike those regions the Duster here is lacking ESP.

The big surprise is Ford pricing for Ecosport given its history, the price of Ecopsort in other regions and the current rupee. In India we have seen a tendency to follow the leader and a bias towards overpricing. In that context the Ecosport is a a complete bolt from the blue as most would have expected significantly higher prices. Great for consumers and all of us here cribbing about pricing in India. For once its the other way and Ecosport is the lowest priced in India.

On the SUV credentials most who have seen most videos of the 4x4 Duster on youtube will agree its got chops. There is a lot to admire in the Duster, its a segment first, it's robust, basics and fundamentals are well sorted, suspension is brilliant even at high speeds. Its a bit quirky looking, and that makes it interesting. Its only the India pricing that lots had issues with.
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Old 6th August 2013, 12:23   #280
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Default Re: Ford EcoSport versus Renault Duster

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Originally Posted by HillMan View Post
@TheArun... never looked at global prices before. You are right, the Prices in India are equal or lower then global.

For their 4x2 base variants (I took the liberty to convert the local currency to INR, translation were pretty confusing):
In Brazil Duster starts at INR 13,53,420 and EcoSport (1.6L petrol) at INR 14,60,270
In UK Duster starts at INR 11,66,190 and EcoSport is scheduled for launch in 2014

These are as per the official websites. What I could make out was;
The UK price for Duster is similar but Brazil is on higher side.
UK was the 110hp where as the Brazil had a 2L petrol engine.

The Diesel EcoSport in Brazil seem to start from Rs.17Lakh for Diesel. They are doing well there.

Which means the EcoSport is way under-priced or are on an introductory pricing in India. That is great for buyers to lap it up at this price till stocks last
Comparing prices for a particular model across geographies is not the right way. The 2013 Honda Accord starts at INR 13,22,480 in the US, whereas the older Accord still sells for INR 20,00,000+ here. Similarly the A-Star & Swift hatches start at INR 6,83,905 and INR 10,25,905 respectively in the UK, whereas Indian prices start at INR 3,84,396 and INR 4,47,894 resp. (not to forget, even the base models of each of these cars have ABS, Airbags, ESP as standard)

The correct way to compare and see if a model is overpriced is by comparing models within the same country. If in the UK, the Duster starts at INR 11,66,190, then it is placed above the Swift. So prices in India should ideally start around INR 6,00,000. Unfortunately, that's not the case. The cheapest Duster retails for INR 8,00,000! and is bare bones, no ABS, no ESP, no Airbags. Conclusion - Grossly overpriced.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ACM View Post
Again a different take:

Phew actually one could write a thesis on why the EcoSport is more SUVish or Crossoverish than the Duster AND VICE-VERSA. To each his own. I normally prefer to keep such views to myself but with the number of one is an SUV and one is good VFM posts on the thread felt a different take would be interesting.

Just another take nothing more in this everything goes.
Couldn't agree with you more

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Originally Posted by HillMan View Post
Guess wrong choice of words. I mean to squeeze the brakes and keep it at the threshold and stop skidding by releasing a little.
There is a reason why ABS is mandatory across the world. Unfortunately, this is not the case in India. You head goes through a million things when confronted with a sudden difficult situation and most of your actions are reactions really. So 'pumping' the brakes etc all sound doable under normal conditions, but for all other situations, ABS/EBD are life savers.
One of the cars that I drive is an Alto and I can recount numerous occasions when having ABS would've helped me in handling an emergency braking situation better (i have been driving since the past 13 years). With zero adherence to safety norms and roads full of everything, I would say that ABS/EBD/Airbags become even more important here.
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Old 6th August 2013, 13:23   #281
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Default Re: Ford EcoSport versus Renault Duster

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There is a reason why ABS is mandatory across the world. Unfortunately, this is not the case in India.
ABS works best on tar roads. On Sand/Gravels it only increases the stopping distance, again you can turn off ABS on such drives.
This topic can own a thread of its own. It has its pros and cons.

IMO its not a deal breaker. Should be available as an option so not to overcharge those who think otherwise.

Its a good to have feature indeed.

Here is an extract from Wiki:

A 2004 Australian study by Monash University Accident Research Centre found that ABS:[1]On high-traction surfaces such as bitumen, or concrete, many (though not all) ABS-equipped cars are able to attain braking distances better (i.e. shorter) than those that would be possible without the benefit of ABS. In real world conditions, even an alert and experienced driver without ABS would find it difficult to match or improve on the performance of a typical driver with a modern ABS-equipped vehicle. ABS reduces chances of crashing, and/or the severity of impact. The recommended technique for non-expert drivers in an ABS-equipped car, in a typical full-braking emergency, is to press the brake pedal as firmly as possible and, where appropriate, to steer around obstructions. In such situations, ABS will significantly reduce the chances of a skid and subsequent loss of control.

In gravel, sand and deep snow, ABS tends to increase braking distances. On these surfaces, locked wheels dig in and stop the vehicle more quickly. ABS prevents this from occurring. Some ABS calibrations reduce this problem by slowing the cycling time, thus letting the wheels repeatedly briefly lock and unlock. Some vehicle manufacturers provide an "off-road" button to turn ABS function off. The primary benefit of ABS on such surfaces is to increase the ability of the driver to maintain control of the car rather than go into a skid, though loss of control remains more likely on soft surfaces such as gravel or on slippery surfaces such as snow or ice. On a very slippery surface such as sheet ice or gravel, it is possible to lock multiple wheels at once, and this can defeat ABS (which relies on comparing all four wheels, and detecting individual wheels skidding). Availability of ABS relieves most drivers from learning threshold braking.

A June 1999 National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) study found that ABS increased stopping distances on loose gravel by an average of 27.2 percent.[20]
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Old 6th August 2013, 14:15   #282
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Default Re: Ford EcoSport versus Renault Duster

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Originally Posted by HillMan View Post
ABS works best on tar roads. On Sand/Gravels it only increases the stopping distance, again you can turn off ABS on such drives.
This topic can own a thread of its own. It has its pros and cons.

IMO its not a deal breaker. Should be available as an option so not to overcharge those who think otherwise.

Its a good to have feature indeed.

Here is an extract from Wiki:

A 2004 Australian study by Monash University Accident Research Centre found that ABS:[1]On high-traction surfaces such as bitumen, or concrete, many (though not all) ABS-equipped cars are able to attain braking distances better (i.e. shorter) than those that would be possible without the benefit of ABS. In real world conditions, even an alert and experienced driver without ABS would find it difficult to match or improve on the performance of a typical driver with a modern ABS-equipped vehicle. ABS reduces chances of crashing, and/or the severity of impact. The recommended technique for non-expert drivers in an ABS-equipped car, in a typical full-braking emergency, is to press the brake pedal as firmly as possible and, where appropriate, to steer around obstructions. In such situations, ABS will significantly reduce the chances of a skid and subsequent loss of control.

In gravel, sand and deep snow, ABS tends to increase braking distances. On these surfaces, locked wheels dig in and stop the vehicle more quickly. ABS prevents this from occurring. Some ABS calibrations reduce this problem by slowing the cycling time, thus letting the wheels repeatedly briefly lock and unlock. Some vehicle manufacturers provide an "off-road" button to turn ABS function off. The primary benefit of ABS on such surfaces is to increase the ability of the driver to maintain control of the car rather than go into a skid, though loss of control remains more likely on soft surfaces such as gravel or on slippery surfaces such as snow or ice. On a very slippery surface such as sheet ice or gravel, it is possible to lock multiple wheels at once, and this can defeat ABS (which relies on comparing all four wheels, and detecting individual wheels skidding). Availability of ABS relieves most drivers from learning threshold braking.

A June 1999 National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) study found that ABS increased stopping distances on loose gravel by an average of 27.2 percent.[20]
Interesting. We are indeed going OT with this ABS discussion Let's agree that ABS is a good to have solution as an option.
Moving back to the discussion, from what I've read, Nissan's Terrano is going to be costlier than the Duster. I see a Terrano-sized hole already, waiting on Nissan to push it in
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Old 6th August 2013, 14:29   #283
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Default Re: Ford EcoSport versus Renault Duster

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Interesting. We are indeed going OT with this ABS discussion Let's agree that ABS is a good to have solution as an option.
Agreed.

EcoSport pricing was very brave and has made a dent in the car market. Duster is not the only casualty.
Nissan has been known as VFM car maker. To make a costlier Terrano, hope they have it loaded with all fancy sedan features.
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Old 6th August 2013, 14:49   #284
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Agreed.

EcoSport pricing was very brave and has made a dent in the car market. Duster is not the only casualty.
Nissan has been known as VFM car maker. To make a costlier Terrano, hope they have it loaded with all fancy sedan features.
Man! I can't wait for 2014. Let's hope Maruti & Hyundai launch their competing products soon.
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Old 6th August 2013, 16:12   #285
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Default Re: Ford EcoSport versus Renault Duster

We have to look at Duster from another perspective, me and you may find it difficult to figure it out but the Indian customer is very clever. We have a car that looks like an SUV favored by the rich but does not drive like an SUV (body roll) and does not drink like one too.
The average buyer is not too worried about its off-roading ability as he not going to take his 13lac rupee car into river beds, he will probably buy an ex army MM 550 for that. He is more interested in its ability to cross road humps, tackle bad roads without damage to the car and do highway trips comfortably. Even this road hump thing is psychological and the scraping noise that comes from brushing one does more damage to your heart than the car, I know as I have been driving a Baleno for 7 years now.

Look at it like this:
1. It looks like an SUV
2. It has a huge boot
3. You can take it to Leh
5. It returns 15km + to a liter of diesel
6. It is designed by built by an European manufacturer
7. It is not very hitech and so no faulty sensors that cost a lakh
8. Proven engine which is easy to drive in the city (85BHP)
9. Superb ride and handling

The key here is the fuel efficiency and Renault got there by making the car light and still keeping the chassis safe and stiff. The lighter the car the easier to tune the suspension and so the good ride. The lower the car and wider the track, easier it is make it handle better, though it has 200mm of ground clearance the car itself is not too tall.
They have got the basics right, only thing that people are complaining about is that the price is too high or that it does not have enough features for the price. No one ever said that it was a bad car. To my wife all cars are the same till she has to sit in one for a long road trip and after about 3 hours she will tell you why the car (or driver if I am driving) is useless. She commented that a white Duster looks nice and has the look of one of those imported SUVs (probably referring to Audi Q series) and we should buy one.
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